Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[asongofheresy]

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

I don't see a lake by this name either when glancing over the maps, but we do have two lakes that lie close to the wolfswood in the north. Long Lake to the east and a lake with no name, that lies just south of the wolfwood at Torrhen's Square. The name of Torrhen's Square has always been curious to me, because the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Torrhen, is Torrhen Stark the King who Knelt, although there are other Torrhen's in the story. But this castle that is held by the Tallhart's is named Torrhen's Square. And now that I am thinking about it, it's odd that this lake is on maps and is mentioned, but it so far has not been named in our story. I am certain it has a name!  Just glancing at the map, this lake by Torrhen's Square and Long Lake lies in a line with Winterfell lying almost directly in the middle of the two lakes. I am not sure if that means anything or not!

It's also possible that this lake does lie in the south and has been renamed, but I kind of am drawn to the idea that the wolf lake would lie near the wolf wood, and possibly near a wolf "valley" which is something I just posted about upthread. 

IF Rose of Red (blue) Lake and Brandon of the Bloody Blade had a child, it would certainly put some Starkcest on the radar from way back when mythical figures like Garth Greenhand walked the earth. But if GRRM is following idea's in world mythology, then sibling incest shows up often with the gods, at least in greek, roman, egyptian and norse myths. GRRM is obviously unafraid to use it with the Targaryen's, who seem to see themselves as types of gods!

And not to completely derail this post, but Stark in Norse translates to Strong. I know this is not news to anyone, but it has recently rung my bell again about how the "seed is strong" and how that could link back to the Stark seed being strong. In the last heresy thread, I think it was Feather Crystal who discussed the idea of pregnancy quickening and at what stage in pregnancy that might first be felt. When doing a search of pregnancy quickening in the text, the second and third links to quickening is to Ned Stark's seed, when Catelyn is hoping his seed will quicken and that she understood that while on campaign his seed would quicken (which she links to Jon, but perhaps incorrectly). These are both from Game Cat II. The first link in the text, and the forth and fifth in Game, are all in Dany's chapters. The first is in Dany I, when she talks about being a quickening in her mother's womb, and the last two are in regards to MMD prophecy and if her womb will quicken again. Man oh man, I have kind of denied that Dany could be Ned's child for a long time, but those first three links, two of which are about Ned's seed quickening, and one to Dany being a "quickening" flared on my radar!

Long Lake being a Wolf Lake is interesting since it will also be tied to the Grey Girl prophecy. About Daenerys being Ned's child... I don't know how I feel about that, since Daenerys chapters wants us to believe Dany is the youngest rebellion baby but there is also chance she could be older.. but where does Viserys fit? 

[Janneyc1]

7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Long Lake being a Wolf Lake is interesting since it will also be tied to the Grey Girl prophecy. About Daenerys being Ned's child... I don't know how I feel about that, since Daenerys chapters wants us to believe Dany is the youngest rebellion baby but there is also chance she could be older.. but where does Viserys fit? 

We have long agreed about there being a baby swap. Here is how I see it playing out:

1. Rhaella has Dany on Dragonstone. (If memory serves, Rhealla died in childbirth)This is well documented. Viserys and Darry are on Dragonstone with her. They hear about the Sack of Kingslanding and realize what is coming for them. 

2. Darry looked at the situation and realized that he had to get the royals out of Dragonstone. He likely went via ship to the one place that didn't want to kill the kids immediately. He went to Dorne, specifically Starfall, where Elia's former lady in waiting was thought to be delivering a child. During the trip, Dany dies.

3. Darry arrives at Starfall, about the time that Ned is getting there from the Tower of Joy. Ned has his sister's baby girl, who was the daughter of Rhaeghar. To Ned's surprise, there is also a baby boy, Jon at Starfall. Darry, Ashara and Ned put their heads together to figure out what to do. We have a baby boy that looks like he crawled down from the north and a clearly Targaryen child, whom I call (f)Dany. Between the three of them, they decide that Jon will go North with his dad, Darry will take (f)Dany, and Ashara will go with Darry to nurse the child. 

 

That is just my take, but I think it explains most of our children that we need to know the parents of. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

We have long agreed about there being a baby swap. Here is how I see it playing out:

1. Rhaella has Dany on Dragonstone. (If memory serves, Rhealla died in childbirth)This is well documented. Viserys and Darry are on Dragonstone with her. They hear about the Sack of Kingslanding and realize what is coming for them. 

2. Darry looked at the situation and realized that he had to get the royals out of Dragonstone. He likely went via ship to the one place that didn't want to kill the kids immediately. He went to Dorne, specifically Starfall, where Elia's former lady in waiting was thought to be delivering a child. During the trip, Dany dies.

3. Darry arrives at Starfall, about the time that Ned is getting there from the Tower of Joy. Ned has his sister's baby girl, who was the daughter of Rhaeghar. To Ned's surprise, there is also a baby boy, Jon at Starfall. Darry, Ashara and Ned put their heads together to figure out what to do. We have a baby boy that looks like he crawled down from the north and a clearly Targaryen child, whom I call (f)Dany. Between the three of them, they decide that Jon will go North with his dad, Darry will take (f)Dany, and Ashara will go with Darry to nurse the child. 

 

That is just my take, but I think it explains most of our children that we need to know the parents of. 

But if Ashara nursed Daenerys* than what happened to her when Daenerys grow up? When did baby Dany died? Why go to Starfall when Sunspear is closer to Dragonstone? Still doesn't make much sense to me and I can't see Jon as a child of NA anymore I am more interested in Allyria as Ned's bastard. If Ashara is Lemore (big if) than she would nurse Aegon imo. 

[SirArthur]

27 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

 Darry will take (f)Dany,

but why ? There has to be a point to an action, e.g. Viserys is around, female succession to the throne is problematic, the child is actually more safe with Ashara. 

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

But if Ashara nursed Daenerys* than what happened to her when Daenerys grow up? When did baby Dany died? Why go to Starfall when Sunspear is closer to Dragonstone? Still doesn't make much sense to me and I can't see Jon as a child of NA anymore I am more interested in Allyria as Ned's bastard. If Ashara is Lemore (big if) than she would nurse Aegon imo. 

Earlier in this thread or the last one, we discussed that Aegon could have been between 12-18 months old at the time of the Sack. It isn't ideal, but you can survive off of goat's milk or other substitute during this time. I don't think Varys got Aegon to JonCon right after the Sack, I think it happened much later. By this time, he wouldn't need to be nursed, so no need for Ashara. 

My guess for what happened to Ashara is that she nursed Dany* (much easier than (f)) until Dany could survive on her own. Ashara probably stayed with Darry until he died. Someone had to help the children out of that house and Ashara is missing. Once Darry died, Viserys and Dany* got a tour of the Free Cities. My guess is that they started in Pentos, hanging out with Illyrio and were then spirited off to some other city. Illyrio convinced Ashara to join JonCon and kept the children safe. 

Finally, going to Starfall instead of Sunspear: Dorne stood with the Targaryens. It only makes sense that after he pacified the rest of the kingdoms, Robert would look to bring Dorne back into his kingdom. I am sure that the port in Sunspear is watched and landing there could have revealed everything. Having a Targaryen there would be very dangerous. In addition, Ashara served as a lady in waiting to Elia and interacted with Rhaella at court. Her family produces the Swords of the Morning. Overall, I think you can trust the Daynes. Plus Starfall is out of the way and the Daynes look like they could be Targaryens. House Dayne is the perfect place to hide a Targaryen kid. 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

but why ? There has to be a point to an action, e.g. Viserys is around, female succession to the throne is problematic, the child is actually more safe with Ashara. 

Darry left Dragonstone with Dany. Someone knows that Darry took Viserys and Dany. For either child to have a chance at reclaiming their heritage, they have to be able to prove who they are. Darry, a knight of the Kinsguard, would make the perfect witness. The only other way to prove their identities is with dragons. Understandably, they probably didn't think that they could hatch any. 

Also, in Westeros, Dorne is the only place that would even think to rise for Dany if she decides to retake the Iron Throne. Dorne is the only place that allows for female succession. I think that we will find the the House with the Red Door is in Dorne, with my guess being High Hermitage. 

Lastly, splitting the children up is risky. It is one thing for adults that understand the consequences to hide in different places, but Dany is too young and Viserys to rash. Either one could reveal who they are and that would be the end. 

[Brad Stark]

3 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Earlier in this thread or the last one, we discussed that Aegon could have been between 12-18 months old at the time of the Sack. It isn't ideal, but you can survive off of goat's milk or other substitute during this time. I don't think Varys got Aegon to JonCon right after the Sack, I think it happened much later. By this time, he wouldn't need to be nursed, so no need for Ashara. 

My guess for what happened to Ashara is that she nursed Dany* (much easier than (f)) until Dany could survive on her own. Ashara probably stayed with Darry until he died. Someone had to help the children out of that house and Ashara is missing. Once Darry died, Viserys and Dany* got a tour of the Free Cities. My guess is that they started in Pentos, hanging out with Illyrio and were then spirited off to some other city. Illyrio convinced Ashara to join JonCon and kept the children safe. 

Finally, going to Starfall instead of Sunspear: Dorne stood with the Targaryens. It only makes sense that after he pacified the rest of the kingdoms, Robert would look to bring Dorne back into his kingdom. I am sure that the port in Sunspear is watched and landing there could have revealed everything. Having a Targaryen there would be very dangerous. In addition, Ashara served as a lady in waiting to Elia and interacted with Rhaella at court. Her family produces the Swords of the Morning. Overall, I think you can trust the Daynes. Plus Starfall is out of the way and the Daynes look like they could be Targaryens. House Dayne is the perfect place to hide a Targaryen kid. 

Darry left Dragonstone with Dany. Someone knows that Darry took Viserys and Dany. For either child to have a chance at reclaiming their heritage, they have to be able to prove who they are. Darry, a knight of the Kinsguard, would make the perfect witness. The only other way to prove their identities is with dragons. Understandably, they probably didn't think that they could hatch any. 

Also, in Westeros, Dorne is the only place that would even think to rise for Dany if she decides to retake the Iron Throne. Dorne is the only place that allows for female succession. I think that we will find the the House with the Red Door is in Dorne, with my guess being High Hermitage. 

Lastly, splitting the children up is risky. It is one thing for adults that understand the consequences to hide in different places, but Dany is too young and Viserys to rash. Either one could reveal who they are and that would be the end. 

We don't need to speculate, the burden of proof for Viserys would be the same as fAgeon. 

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't need to speculate, the burden of proof for Viserys would be the same as fAgeon.

That had slipped my mind, thanks

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

Earlier in this thread or the last one, we discussed that Aegon could have been between 12-18 months old at the time of the Sack. It isn't ideal, but you can survive off of goat's milk or other substitute during this time. I don't think Varys got Aegon to JonCon right after the Sack, I think it happened much later. By this time, he wouldn't need to be nursed, so no need for Ashara. 

My guess for what happened to Ashara is that she nursed Dany* (much easier than (f)) until Dany could survive on her own. Ashara probably stayed with Darry until he died. Someone had to help the children out of that house and Ashara is missing. Once Darry died, Viserys and Dany* got a tour of the Free Cities. My guess is that they started in Pentos, hanging out with Illyrio and were then spirited off to some other city. Illyrio convinced Ashara to join JonCon and kept the children safe. 

Finally, going to Starfall instead of Sunspear: Dorne stood with the Targaryens. It only makes sense that after he pacified the rest of the kingdoms, Robert would look to bring Dorne back into his kingdom. I am sure that the port in Sunspear is watched and landing there could have revealed everything. Having a Targaryen there would be very dangerous. In addition, Ashara served as a lady in waiting to Elia and interacted with Rhaella at court. Her family produces the Swords of the Morning. Overall, I think you can trust the Daynes. Plus Starfall is out of the way and the Daynes look like they could be Targaryens. House Dayne is the perfect place to hide a Targaryen kid. 

Darry left Dragonstone with Dany. Someone knows that Darry took Viserys and Dany. For either child to have a chance at reclaiming their heritage, they have to be able to prove who they are. Darry, a knight of the Kinsguard, would make the perfect witness. The only other way to prove their identities is with dragons. Understandably, they probably didn't think that they could hatch any. 

Also, in Westeros, Dorne is the only place that would even think to rise for Dany if she decides to retake the Iron Throne. Dorne is the only place that allows for female succession. I think that we will find the the House with the Red Door is in Dorne, with my guess being High Hermitage. 

Lastly, splitting the children up is risky. It is one thing for adults that understand the consequences to hide in different places, but Dany is too young and Viserys to rash. Either one could reveal who they are and that would be the end. 

I said Ashara may nurse Aegon* because I believe YG could be child of R and L but if Aegon is Elia's son that's a big possibility too, than Ashara will still be with Aegon as she will organize the swap with Elia and Varys. So she will have no knowledge of Dany or Dany* and the possibility of Dany being real will be higher because Viserys is a big problem in any Dany parentage theory, we can just say Dany is an unreliable POV and misremembers some of her memories but she is still child of Aerys and Rhaella. 

[Janneyc1]

3 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I said Ashara may nurse Aegon* because I believe YG could be child of R and L but if Aegon is Elia's son that's a big possibility too, than Ashara will still be with Aegon as she will organize the swap with Elia and Varys. So she will have no knowledge of Dany or Dany* and the possibility of Dany being real will be higher because Viserys is a big problem in any Dany parentage theory, we can just say Dany is an unreliable POV and misremembers some of her memories but she is still child of Aerys and Rhaella. 

My understanding is that Ashara was removed from the court before the Pisswater Prince swap. Which means that there is a good chance that she had no clue until much later. 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

the burden of proof for Viserys would be the same as fAgeon

At the time of the Sack, Viserys was universally believed to be alive, and to have fled to Dragonstone.   There were never any reports he died since (that we've ever heard of) until of course his golden crown happened in AGOT.

Meanwhile, Aegon was universally, since the Sack, believed to be dead -- his corpse literally presented to Robert and witnessed by many.

So I think the bar for Aegon, at the time of the Sack, would have been seen as much higher and harder to clear.   Yet somehow Connington was convinced, and Connington expects many in Westeros to be convinced as well, and if I had to guess, I would say this is because the thing that convinced him still applies, and he knows it.

[Janneyc1]

41 minutes ago, JNR said:

So I think the bar for Aegon, at the time of the Sack, would have been seen as much higher and harder to clear.   Yet somehow Connington was convinced, and Connington expects many in Westeros to be convinced as well, and if I had to guess, I would say this is because the thing that convinced him still applies, and he knows it.

That is a fair point. What could Aegon use to prove that he survived? Blackfyre was last in the hands of a Blackfire so that won't help, he's got the Targaryen look, but that couldn't be enough could it? Did we ever see Elia's body? If we can theorize that Aegon survived, perhaps the same could be said for Elia? 

[asongofheresy]

13 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

My understanding is that Ashara was removed from the court before the Pisswater Prince swap. Which means that there is a good chance that she had no clue until much later. 

That's possible but still I don't think Ashara would left Daenerys* and do you think she went to stay with Aegon and Jon c. instead? Wouldn't things work better if Dany* and Aegon stayed together instead? 

[SirArthur]

14 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Darry left Dragonstone with Dany. Someone knows that Darry took Viserys and Dany. For either child to have a chance at reclaiming their heritage, they have to be able to prove who they are. Darry, a knight of the Kinsguard, would make the perfect witness. The only other way to prove their identities is with dragons. Understandably, they probably didn't think that they could hatch any. 

-I don't get it. KG Darry is dead, his brother fled to Dragonstone. 

-I doesn't make any sense to protect the second in succession (Dany) through a baby switch but let the first (Viserys) just go round the world.

-Viserys needs no proof. He is well known as the beggar prince

-Dany needs no proof, she is known by Robert and he even sees her as a danger to send an assassin. This is enough.

-dragons are no proof at all. A dragon can not prove being a child of Aerys or Rhaegar. And not having a dragon is also not a proof of not being a child of Aerys. It's a pointless concept, when it comes to royal succession.

-many readers don't care at all about legal issues and in their mind you are the rightful heir, if you can bash in the head of your enemy. Dragons are just the better mace. 

[SirArthur]

Long story short, if Dany was switched, there is no reason to not switch Viserys. E.g. Viserys and Aurane have a 1-2 year difference with Viserys being the older. 

[alienarea]

In general, I don't like stories where everyone turns out to be someone else. Blindspot comes to mind. In ASoIaF it is very clear from the beginning that Jon Snow has a mystery, so I expect everyone else to be whom they claim to be.

This is my main problem with (F)Aegon. Introducing him in AFfC and killing (?) Jon Snow at the end of ADwD feels like GRRM wasn't satisfied with books 1 - 3 or maybe frustrated the internet crowd figured out R+L=J (honestly, it wasn't too smart from the beginning) and wanted to change / rewrite the story. 

If the story were to follow the "classic" myths, Bran should have ended up with Ghost, and he were to push Jamie out the window / down a cliff in the end. A subversion were to result in Bran becoming the antagonist and Jamie doing the right thing for the wrong motive from the beginning. 

 

 

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

In general, I don't like stories where everyone turns out to be someone else. Blindspot comes to mind. In ASoIaF it is very clear from the beginning that Jon Snow has a mystery, so I expect everyone else to be whom they claim to be.

This is my main problem with (F)Aegon. Introducing him in AFfC and killing (?) Jon Snow at the end of ADwD feels like GRRM wasn't satisfied with books 1 - 3 or maybe frustrated the internet crowd figured out R+L=J (honestly, it wasn't too smart from the beginning) and wanted to change / rewrite the story. 

If the story were to follow the "classic" myths, Bran should have ended up with Ghost, and he were to push Jamie out the window / down a cliff in the end. A subversion were to result in Bran becoming the antagonist and Jamie doing the right thing for the wrong motive from the beginning. 

 

 

Well I do think Jon is Lyanna's son, not Rhaegar's, and Aegon/Daenerys are both Targaryens despite the problems in Daenerys' memories - Aegon is Rhaegar's son as there is no way Jon Connington, a man described as prickly and arrogant, will believe Varys someone he sees to be lesser due to being an eunuch. And Daenerys well, she will be a Targaryen, maybe daughter of Rhaegar if she isn't daughter of Rhaella and Aerys. 

I do not think George changed anything because of an internet theory, I think Aegon was planned from the start and Blackfyres aren't related except I can see Daario being one, I am curious why George choose to tell us about Aerion having bastards - when he said Bittersteel didn't had kids he also said Aerion had kids - kept Maegor Brightflame as a mystery and than in F&B made Saera had multiple children. I think it is possible Rhaegar/Aerys were interested in descendants of Saera and Aerion or in sometime of history Saera and Aerion's lines joined together in Essos. 

[SirArthur]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

In general, I don't like stories where everyone turns out to be someone else. Blindspot comes to mind. In ASoIaF it is very clear from the beginning that Jon Snow has a mystery, so I expect everyone else to be whom they claim to be.

This is my main problem with (F)Aegon. Introducing him in AFfC and killing (?) Jon Snow at the end of ADwD feels like GRRM wasn't satisfied with books 1 - 3 or maybe frustrated the internet crowd figured out R+L=J (honestly, it wasn't too smart from the beginning) and wanted to change / rewrite the story. 

I think the story so far makes us believe that either Aegon or Rhaegar survived somehow. And then we have different baits, who Aegon could be. First, we get baited by Loras the Rhaegar mirror, then maybe Jon, Aurane Waters, Young Griff .... 

It's like this joke where you are looking for someone in a group, one says "yes, that's me". Then the next person steps forwards "that's me" and so on.

[Janneyc1]

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Long story short, if Dany was switched, there is no reason to not switch Viserys. E.g. Viserys and Aurane have a 1-2 year difference with Viserys being the older.

I think I miscommunicated the Dany switch. I think that the real Dany died when they fled Dragonstone. When they fled, there was only one place in Westeros that they could flee. Dorne. I don't see Darry having the connections to meet with the leaders of the Free Cities. He knew that if they stayed at Dragonstone, they would die, so he packed up 8ish year old Viserys and newborn Dany and fled. I think that he fled to Dorne, as Dorne was standing against Robert. Maybe he stopped in at Sunspear, but I don't see Doran being the guy to keep royals in exile around him. Either Darry passed by Sunspear or Doran sent him on his way. I suspect that they went to Starfall, as it is remote and has known Targaryen supporters, as well as being one of the only families in Westeros that could pass off a Targaryen as their own. 

 

Where I suspect a swap happening is when Ned arrives at Starfall from the Tower of Joy. He brought his sister's baby, a clearly Targaryen girl. He brought the child to Starfall for pretty much the same reason as Darry going there. The child would be safer than anywhere else in the kingdom. I am not suggesting that they swapped two Targaryen babies, I am suggesting that one died on the trip and was replaced by the Dany that we see today. 

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

In general, I don't like stories where everyone turns out to be someone else. Blindspot comes to mind. In ASoIaF it is very clear from the beginning that Jon Snow has a mystery, so I expect everyone else to be whom they claim to be.

This is my main problem with (F)Aegon. Introducing him in AFfC and killing (?) Jon Snow at the end of ADwD feels like GRRM wasn't satisfied with books 1 - 3 or maybe frustrated the internet crowd figured out R+L=J (honestly, it wasn't too smart from the beginning) and wanted to change / rewrite the story. 

If the story were to follow the "classic" myths, Bran should have ended up with Ghost, and he were to push Jamie out the window / down a cliff in the end. A subversion were to result in Bran becoming the antagonist and Jamie doing the right thing for the wrong motive from the beginning. 

 

 

We had an original story where incest was forbidden and Jon fell in love with Arya only to later learn they aren't actually siblings. 

Jon learning he's Arya's uncle doesn't fix that, and maybe that's why it got changed, but maybe there's another baby swap planned. If GRRM originally planned for Arya also to have different parents, it is only natural to transfer that to Dany if they have a relationship coming. 

GRRM gave us thousands of characters, so it isn't everyone who turns out to be someone else.  Jon and fAegon are somewhat different, since whoever there parents are, it is somewhat unexpected. 

[JNR]

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

This is my main problem with (F)Aegon. Introducing him in AFfC and killing (?) Jon Snow at the end of ADwD feels like GRRM wasn't satisfied with books 1 - 3 or maybe frustrated the internet crowd figured out R+L=J

GRRM was clearly hinting as far back as 2000 that Aegon's fate was far from settled:

 

Quote

I was wondering if you could answer (or take the "fifth") one teeny little question I've been dying to ask for the past year: Are Aegon and Rhaenys, Elia's children, well and truly dead?

All I have to say is that there is absolutely no doubt that little Princess Rhaenys was dragged from beneath her father's bed and slain.

And in canon, he introduced the ambiguity about Aegon's identity four years earlier, in AGOT, too:

Quote

He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull

Meaning Aegon could not be identified by his face.

So I don't think GRRM changed anything there.  He always intended for Aegon to have gotten away.

How? -- via Varys, whose mastery of the Red Keep's secret passages would have made it easy, and whose profound loyalty to the Targaryen cause is evident in the ADWD epilogue, as well as his recommendation that Aerys not open the gates to Tywin's host.  So Varys had means, motive, and opportunity to usher Aegon to safety and that's just what he did, collaborating with Mopatis after that to make further arrangements we learn about in ADWD.

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I think the story so far makes us believe that either Aegon or Rhaegar survived somehow

If we believe GRRM's flat statement on this topic, Rhaegar was cremated.  No coming back from that.