Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[Black Crow]

I don't really have a dog in this race, but would remind everyone of Arya's encounter with Varys and Illyrio under the Red Keep away back early on in AGoT. Whatever the truth about Young Griff he isn't a late afterthought.

[JNR]

Yes, that shows their collaboration and plotting in a general sense, and that Varys knew the secret ins and outs of that place very well (and hence, GRRM knew that about Varys back then).

On the question of whether GRRM changed his mind about Jon's parents... that's a tricky one for me.  I don't think so, but it's possible.

The most on-point quote here is probably the famous one in which he said that in the nineties, he read user forums and at that time

Quote

At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I'd planted in the books and came to the right solution.

The solution to what, he did not say. 

If we think it was Jon's parents, then that means he already had a plan in the nineties for Jon's parents, for which he had already, at that time, been dropping clues.  Which in turn implies to me it was the same plan in his headthe whole time, so he never changed his mind.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Yes, that shows their collaboration and plotting in a general sense, and that Varys knew the secret ins and outs of that place very well (and hence, GRRM knew that about Varys back then).

On the question of whether GRRM changed his mind about Jon's parents... that's a tricky one for me.  I don't think so, but it's possible.

The most on-point quote here is probably the famous one in which he said that in the nineties, he read user forums and at that time

The solution to what, he did not say. 

If we think it was Jon's parents, then that means he already had a plan in the nineties for Jon's parents, for which he had already, at that time, been dropping clues.  Which in turn implies to me it was the same plan in his headthe whole time, so he never changed his mind.

Well I don't know if RLJ or NAJ needs extremely subtle and obscure clues since both of these equations has more clear clues- especially NAJ where the text refers Ashara as Jon's mother - I still don't think George will change the story because only one or two people found the truth. 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

The solution to what, he did not say. 

If we think it was Jon's parents, then that means he already had a plan in the nineties for Jon's parents, for which he had already, at that time, been dropping clues.  Which in turn implies to me it was the same plan in his headthe whole time, so he never changed his mind.

 

57 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Well I don't know if RLJ or NAJ needs extremely subtle and obscure clues since both of these equations has more clear clues- especially NAJ where the text refers Ashara as Jon's mother - I still don't think George will change the story because only one or two people found the truth. 

One of the biggest questions of the series is the parentage of Jon. But looking into the books, I don't think that is the solution that GRRM was talking about. In Jon's arc, he wonders occasionally about his mother, but that isn't shaping his identity. His identity was forged by the examples of Ned and the Old Bear. Regarding Jon, we can wonder all we want about his parentage, but his story isn't the prince in waiting, his story is about embracing reality and preparing for the Second War for the Dawn. I think that Tryion told us who Jon's mother was in terms of importance to the story: 

Quote

 

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are."

 

It is my belief that we may never get an answer to who Jon's mother is because it isn't information that Jon needs to know. IDK, it's just my opinion but I think we focus on the wrong aspects of who he is and what he means to the story. 

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

GRRM was clearly hinting as far back as 2000 that Aegon's fate was far from settled:

 

And in canon, he introduced the ambiguity about Aegon's identity four years earlier, in AGOT, too:

Meaning Aegon could not be identified by his face.

So I don't think GRRM changed anything there.  He always intended for Aegon to have gotten away.

GRRM intended someone to claim Aegon was not killed as far back as 2000.  This does not mean fAegon really is Rhaegar's son, just that the controversy was planned.  He could have been planning on Varys trying to put a fake on the throne in 2000.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

I don't know if RLJ or NAJ needs extremely subtle and obscure clues since both of these equations has more clear clues

I agree, but we don't even know if in that quote, GRRM was talking about the puzzle of Jon's parents.  These books are full of many different puzzles, of which that's just one.   (Over in General, Lady Rhodes is putting together a list of various puzzles and possible clues.)

If he meant Jon's parents, then I agree with you that there's nothing very obscure about RLJ.  RLJ was the most obvious cliche in the fantasy world at that time and was suggested at least as early as 1997.

15 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

It is my belief that we may never get an answer to who Jon's mother is because it isn't information that Jon needs to know.

We'll find out both parents according to this SSM.

16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM intended someone to claim Aegon was not killed as far back as 2000.  This does not mean fAegon really is Rhaegar's son, just that the controversy was planned.  He could have been planning on Varys trying to put a fake on the throne in 2000.

That's true, but we now know so much more.  We know Connington has spent more than a decade painstakingly caring for and raising Aegon, and we know Connington firmly believes him to be Rhaegar's son.  Therefore, we know Connington was convinced of Aegon's authenticity, and we also know he expects to be able to convince many in Westeros of that same authenticity.   His confidence is very suggestive.

We also have much more on Varys and Mopatis, and it aligns neatly with the same premise.  It could have been argued that Varys wasn't a Targ loyalist back in the nineties... but I couldn't make that case with a straight face today.  

What he said and did in ADWD was quite convincing as far as I'm concerned -- actually murdering Ser Kevan Lannister in person because:

Quote

 

"Aegon?" For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. "Dead. He's dead."

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

 

Varys is not lying IMO.  He knows exactly what he's talking about and what he says corresponds very well with what we know of Aegon's life as portrayed in ADWD.  All this is part of a long-running plan that is finally coming to fruition, both for Varys and for GRRM.

This is why Kevan Lannister had to die.  He was doing too good a job on behalf of the Lannisters, and that was not at all compatible with Varys's plans.

Quote

"There are many like you, good men in service to bad causes … but you were threatening to undo all the queen's good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen's rule. So …"

His apology is sincere, but Varys does not regret the murder.

[Brad Stark]

I know I've said it many times before, but the real mystery is why knowing Jon's parents is so important. 

Him being Rhaegar's son is relevant if he has a chance to ride a dragon or if he can prove it and wants to claim the throne, and we've seen nothing close to either so far.  Otherwise it is just background information and not central to the story. 

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

If we believe GRRM's flat statement on this topic, Rhaegar was cremated.  No coming back from that.

Yes, we know that. I'm not arguing against that. I'm talking about the picture of uncertainty the books are painting. One of those early pictures, about Rhaegar and his host on Dragonstone, is in my signature. Another one is Robert, talking about a coming war and Hightower, talking about the wars to come. There is an element of "someone Targaryen survived" that is hinted at in the books. If that one is Rhaegar, Aegon or Rhaenys the Tomcat is not my point. 

The point it, that we are presented with the idea of a hidden and powerful Targaryen that is not in the beggar band of metal headbanger Viserys. And that we are presented with a whole number of fakes until HE is coming. HE is not Voldemort or Sauron. It's more of a subtle he.  But he is coming. Or maybe it's a she, I don't know. Doesn't matter, the Targaryen restoration is on it's way and has nothing to do with Dany. 

[Black Crow]

54 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I know I've said it many times before, but the real mystery is why knowing Jon's parents is so important. 

Him being Rhaegar's son is relevant if he has a chance to ride a dragon or if he can prove it and wants to claim the throne, and we've seen nothing close to either so far.  Otherwise it is just background information and not central to the story. 

I agree that whatever the outcome Jon will not triumph because somebody waves a mouldy bit of parchment proclaiming him the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen, however Maester Aemon's proclamation that he is "a son of Winterfell, and it must be you or no-one" is, I feel, far more significant than anything grubbed up by the R+L=J crowd.

Mind you, that being said, given the lack of interest in the subject of his parentage in the books [as opposed to the readers] I can't help wonder whether the "mystery" is itself a smokescreen to "amuse" readers and distract them from the real mystery - perhaps the Stark connection to the blue-eyed lot

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Maester Aemon's proclamation that he is "a son of Winterfell, and it must be you or no-one" is, I feel, far more significant than anything grubbed up by the R+L=J crowd

It might turn out to be, indeed.  Jon's story, so far at least, is the story of the north -- the Starks, the Wall, the Night's Watch, and the free folk. 

As Tyrion memorably observed:

Quote

Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

Tyrion's a bright guy.

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Him being Rhaegar's son is relevant if he has a chance to ride a dragon or if he can prove it and wants to claim the throne, and we've seen nothing close to either so far.  Otherwise it is just background information and not central to the story.

Problem is, there are at least two gigantic books to go.  So there's really no way to determine if Jon's parentage is important to the story -- not until we know the parentage and we've read the last page of the story.  

I'm sure we can all imagine how the story might take twists and turns in such a way as to make any theory we like important.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

given the lack of interest in the subject of his parentage in the books [as opposed to the readers] I can't help wonder whether the "mystery" is itself a smokescreen to "amuse" readers and distract them from the real mystery - perhaps the Stark connection to the blue-eyed lot

Well, two thoughts:

1. Ned's honor is so well established and so famous, I think people in Westeros simply believe him.  The concept of stiff-necked Ned Stark lying about a thing like that would seem improbable to most. 

Cersei does, however, make it clear in AGOT that the identity of his bastard's mother is not well known -- not to her, at least.

Quote

You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told.

2. I agree that for GRRM, it's a nice smokescreen.  There are other, bigger, more important mysteries than that one, and Heresy has done a splendid job focusing on them over the years. 

Questions like "Who are the Others, what is their motive, why did the Long Night happen, and why is it happening again -- now?" are obviously more important to Westeros and its history than Jon's parents.

[asongofheresy]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I know I've said it many times before, but the real mystery is why knowing Jon's parents is so important. 

Him being Rhaegar's son is relevant if he has a chance to ride a dragon or if he can prove it and wants to claim the throne, and we've seen nothing close to either so far.  Otherwise it is just background information and not central to the story. 

Well I will disagree, Jon AGOT basically have Jeor Mormont asking Jon if it matter who sits the Iron Throne when Ice Popsicles - @JNR cool nickname - invade Westeros, and Jon says No. George also said all three heads of the dragon don't have to be Targaryens, Jon is a really powerful skinchanger as Varamyr says and he can bound with a dragon regardless his parentage, like Nettles did. 

Honestly I sometimes think RLJ is like Harry Potter where R/L are Lily and James dead before the story began totally pointless but still universally loved for some reason, Starks are Weasleys since they are already red headed and Catelyn is somehow Petunia. So I wouldn't want Jon to end up ruling Westeros when he can't handle the Wall, boy doesn't have any experience and no one in Westeros will believe Ned Stark's Stark looking bastard is son of Rhaegar even Howland comes out of his bogs finally. 

[Black Crow]

29 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Well I will disagree, Jon AGOT basically have Jeor Mormont asking Jon if it matter who sits the Iron Throne when Ice Popsicles - @JNR cool nickname - invade Westeros, and Jon says No. George also said all three heads of the dragon don't have to be Targaryens, Jon is a really powerful skinchanger as Varamyr says and he can bound with a dragon regardless his parentage, like Nettles did. 

Honestly I sometimes think RLJ is like Harry Potter where R/L are Lily and James dead before the story began totally pointless but still universally loved for some reason, Starks are Weasleys since they are already red headed and Catelyn is somehow Petunia. So I wouldn't want Jon to end up ruling Westeros when he can't handle the Wall, boy doesn't have any experience and no one in Westeros will believe Ned Stark's Stark looking bastard is son of Rhaegar even Homeland comes out of his bogs finally. 

Its one of those funny things where reader expectations diverge markedly.

In part its Mel's fault. She has preached that this is all about defeating the Great Other and that Azor Ahai will be the boy to do it. Take a leap to identify the Others beyond the Wall as the Great Other's minions, then mix in R+L=J to identify Jon as the son of Rhaegar and therefore as Azor Ahai and its sorted.

There's a basic problem with this in that this is the Song of Ice and Fire. The R+L=J theory, when not obsessing with the Targaryen side and entitlement to the Iron Throne, holds that Jon is the son of Ice [Lyanna] and Fire [Rhaegar] and therefore uniquely empowered to save the world from the Ice/Others - so what about the Fire which has more recently been identified as another threat.

Balance is good. No doubt about it but Azor Ahai, the champion of Fire [Danaerys the Dragonlord?] aint the one to sort it.

 

 

[SirArthur]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There's a basic problem with this in that this is the Song of Ice and Fire. The R+L=J theory, when not obsessing with the Targaryen side and entitlement to the Iron Throne, holds that Jon is the son of Ice [Lyanna] and Fire [Rhaegar] and therefore uniquely empowered to save the world from the Ice/Others - so what about the Fire which has more recently been identified as another threat.

In one version Jon is ice and Dany is fire, in the next version Jon is ice and fire .... unless RLJ get their shit together and sort their subtheories, there is no reason to discuss it. A large part of RLJ is wild, contradicting speculation. 

And even our books tell us, that Rhaegar thinks Aegon's song is ice and fire. Of course we can doubt the source, but that doesn't go well with another part of RLJ speculation. 

[alienarea]

In my understanding Jon's parentage is a trope woven in for the casual fantasy reader. The bigger picture of ASoIaf is, as the title says Ice vs Fire, and I expect the subtle clues  that one, two people figured out to reference this instead of Jon's parentage.

Daenerys is "fire made flesh", and needs an opponent who is "ice made flesh". This can only be Jon, because of Ghost.

[asongofheresy]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its one of those funny things where reader expectations diverge markedly.

In part its Mel's fault. She has preached that this is all about defeating the Great Other and that Azor Ahai will be the boy to do it. Take a leap to identify the Others beyond the Wall as the Great Other's minions, then mix in R+L=J to identify Jon as the son of Rhaegar and therefore as Azor Ahai and its sorted.

There's a basic problem with this in that this is the Song of Ice and Fire. The R+L=J theory, when not obsessing with the Targaryen side and entitlement to the Iron Throne, holds that Jon is the son of Ice [Lyanna] and Fire [Rhaegar] and therefore uniquely empowered to save the world from the Ice/Others - so what about the Fire which has more recently been identified as another threat.

Balance is good. No doubt about it but Azor Ahai, the champion of Fire [Danaerys the Dragonlord?] aint the one to sort it.

 

 

I still agree with Stannis when it comes to AA that battle against the WW can't be won by only one person and the realm need to united and I think Stannis is really Azor Ahai, Mel sees snow but that doesn't mean Jon is AA as Stannis is surrounded by a blizzard, Rhllor could be saying "Mel, your man needs help." 

I really want Jon to stay dead in the books, in the show boy cost me Stannis, Mance, Rickon and Aegon, robbed four characters of their story lines but then managed to ruin all of them, in the books these four can carry different roles of show Jon and in a better way. And in the end if there are still people who want a Targaryen Restoration we could have that through Aegon and his wife, since Daenerys and unJon couldn't have children. 

[alienarea]

22 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I still agree with Stannis when it comes to AA that battle against the WW can't be won by only one person and the realm need to united and I think Stannis is really Azor Ahai, Mel sees snow but that doesn't mean Jon is AA as Stannis is surrounded by a blizzard, Rhllor could be saying "Mel, your man needs help." 

I really want Jon to stay dead in the books, in the show boy cost me Stannis, Mance, Rickon and Aegon, robbed four characters of their story lines but then managed to ruin all of them, in the books these four can carry different roles of show Jon and in a better way. And in the end if there are still people who want a Targaryen Restoration we could have that through Aegon and his wife, since Daenerys and unJon couldn't have children. 

Imagine The Winds of Winter is released after the tv show has been finished and the first chapter after the prologue is the cremation of Jon Snow.

[SirArthur]

40 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I still agree with Stannis when it comes to AA that battle against the WW can't be won by only one person and the realm need to united and I think Stannis is really Azor Ahai, Mel sees snow but that doesn't mean Jon is AA as Stannis is surrounded by a blizzard, Rhllor could be saying "Mel, your man needs help." 

This is actually one of the few things I am certain of: Stannis is not AA. For me this is indicated when he throws away his "Lightbringer" during the burning ceremony at Dragonstone. He could be AA and he will have the choice, but in the end he will do his duty and then throws it away so that the real AA can grasp the sword. 

Stannis may be the warrior, which could be ironic, as the warrior from the faith and the warrior from the prophecy could be the same person. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Imagine The Winds of Winter is released after the tv show has been finished and the first chapter after the prologue is the cremation of Jon Snow.

I will cry tears of happiness, and later we will have Dadvos returning to Winterfell - liberated by Stannis the Stormbringer and telling Lords of the North that their Prince returned to them 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

This is actually one of the few things I am certain of: Stannis is not AA. For me this is indicated when he throws away his "Lightbringer" during the burning ceremony at Dragonstone. He could be AA and he will have the choice, but in the end he will do his duty and then throws it away so that the real AA can grasp the sword. 

Stannis may be the warrior, which could be ironic, as the warrior from the faith and the warrior from the prophecy could be the same person. 

Actually it is amazing Stannis managed to achieve greatness without a magic sword, I think Lady Forlorn is the Lighbringer we search for and maybe it will be Sansa and her Vale host that will unite AA with his destinied blade