Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The faith of the seven with their crystal religion is all over the place.

It is, but it represents an attempt at compromise; a bringing together of different gods, rather than a power in itself. 

[SirArthur]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It is, but it represents an attempt at compromise; a bringing together of different gods, rather than a power in itself. 

We do not know. However, if they come together, then in a symbolic way through crystals. 

[JNR]

On 12/31/2018 at 10:08 AM, Lady Rhodes said:

I did peruse the SSM not too long ago, but I may have missed that.

It's here, but it's one of the ones where a fan is summarizing what GRRM said, not one where GRRM's actual e-mail is pasted in verbatim.

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Matthew. said:

there's no reference in the tales to someone (human or CotF) creating them either

Of course.  But that is not the sort of thing I would expect to be remembered... assuming they were created at all... because it was mighty subtle and there would have been very few or no witnesses.

If on the other hand there was, during the Long Night, a crown-wearing leader of the Popsicles instructing them and the wights to murder people and overwhelm human defenses, transforming human territories into "the dead lands," that would be pretty damn overt.

People have a mighty good memory for what horrified them en masse through death and destruction (notice Sam has heard of the Popsicles, wights, and ice spiders, for instance).  The nearest to anything along these lines that we've read about is not really a Popsicle King, but simply a "monster" -- the monster Azor Ahai defeated with Lightbringer.

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, JNR said:

It's here, but it's one of the ones where a fan is summarizing what GRRM said, not one where GRRM's actual e-mail is pasted in verbatim.

Quote

About another two years for ADWD

"November 16, 2000 GRRM" How things change in a couple of years :-)

[JNR]

16 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I feel this isn't just highlighting a weakness with a theoretical WW leader, but a weakness with the Other plot line; in a story that has been so character and politics driven, the Others just feel a little too... outside. 

I agree with this, but I don't consider it part of GRRM's design.  I consider it a consequence of the way he let the political plotline (book one of his original trilogy, meant to be only a third of the story) completely overwhelm his series, to the point where it became five books and something like a million and a half words.

We're all hoping he's finally had enough with that, and in the next two books, will write the last two-thirds of his original plan. 

(I doubt he will; he simply does not have any control of his wordcount and never has, and I think he'll write the last page of TWOW and find he is nowhere near one book from completion.  But if so, that again will not be a failure of his design, but of his discipline.)

But I'll give you this: the Others do IMO look and act like a cliched supernatural antagonist so far.  And though I think GRRM will reveal they are something much more original, hopefully in TWOW, that too will not really erase that that's how they came across in the first five books of the series.  There just should never have been five whole books like that in the first place.

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, Tucu said:

I have looked before at the etymology of Val and Dalla in Norse and Irish languages. Val is the easier one as it can be traced to fallen, slain or fall in Old Norse (Valkyre meaning "chooser of the slain" and Valhalla being "hall of the slain"). Dalla is a plural form of dall in Old Irish meaning dark, blind, dim, deceive or some variation of this. So mixing them we could get something like dark fall, fall of dark(ness), dark fallen,etc. One way of the other the combination can be linked to what is going on with BR and Bran in the cave with the darkness and death themes.

I really like your breakdown of these words. I do think GRRM looks at words in this way. An interesting thought I had while reading your post is that we have a "hall of the slain" in our story, and it's the Crypts of Winterfell. Only the chosen get statues, stone direwolves and iron swords. As if their purpose is larger than some other of Stark blood, because they were Lord of Winterfell at one time. Our outliers are Brandon, Lyanna, and Artos Stark, who are not lords, but have statues. And your idea of Darkness (dall) also fits the idea of the hall of the Stark's. But of course, that strongly links Val and Dalla to the Kings of Winter or at least the crypts below Winterfell.

As mentioned, I like the breakdown on Val and Dalla's names. One thing that stood out to me about Dalla, or dall, as you have found in Old Irish, is the idea of Ulfdalir, or wolf dales, as being a place in Norse mythology that  is noted to be "the northernmost edge of the world, not far from one of the tunnels which lead down to the Underworld". Doesn't this sound like the North and Winterfell? That translation can be found here. So, ulf is the root of wolf in that word, with dales meaning valley in Norse or Old English, which is here, So, Ulfdalir is a wolf valley possibly. Dal or dala, as it could be spelled, is very similar to Dalla's name. You have laid out a nice translation for both Val and Dalla, but if we look just at the Norse, we would get "chooser of the slain" and a vale or valley location. 

A winter hill overlooking a wolf valley! Even a dark wolf valley, maybe?

I like the translation for dal or dales meaning valley because it fits with my idea's on Winterfell, with fell or fjell (another old english or old norse word) meaning mountain or high hill, and I like the idea of Winterfell being the Winter Hill or Hill of Winter, where the Kings of Winter rule. Since it seems like Winterfell sits on some type of geothermic heat source, it seems like a good location for people to come for shelter and survival in the winter.

[St Daga]

On 12/31/2018 at 8:55 AM, Lady Rhodes said:

Also, regarding Green imagery, I think she may have been raised on the Greenblood, in Dorne.

This idea could nicely tie some of the green imagery that Dany has in her story, the orphans of the Greenblood live their lives on the green water of the river, and Dany tells us she is comfortable on the water (although she is describing the sea, I think) and brings our attention to green sails but thinks she could live the life of a sailor, which of course means she would live her life on the water. Most ways we look at Dany, if she is Aerys and Rhaella's, she is an orphan. This would also work for a Rhaegar/Lyanna combination, or even Rhaegar/Ashara (although I am not sold on Ashara being actually dead, she is certainly thought to be dead).

[Brad Stark]

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think it utterly impossible, but as I argued up thread, that doesn't appear to be what the book is about. The conflicts within the story revolve around the established central characters; the players if you will. Petyr Baelish may be a double-dyed villain but he aint a Dark Lord.

There may well be a leader, a king of the damned leading the wild hunt, but he isn't a player.

As you know I lean to the belief that the white walkers are in fact the dark secret in the Stark family history, in which case Lord and Lady MacBeth in the guise of the Nights King and his white lady are probably a metaphor for that secret connection.

GRRM said the concepts ice and fire would take multiple meanings.  At one point, I assumed we had visible forces representing fire and hidden forces representing ice.  Obviously the Stark family is not hidden, at least at the start.  But few know Bran is alive, and the other Starks are all assumed dead at some point.  Benjen disappeared.  So the forces representing Ice are more hidden as time goes on.  Dany and her dragons are the opposite of hidden.  So I assumed we had at least one major Ice player hidden from the reader. This could be an ancient Night King or a living character we know leading a double life as leader of the Others.

The concept of hidden Targs (other than Jon) being important directly contradicts this theory. 

[St Daga]

23 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I wonder if GRRM just used the same name since two characters aren't main characters? Because I don't think two woman has similar characteristics - about Valhalla connection, you are totally right to note the similarities and that mention of wolf lake, ugh, I kept searching if there is a lake named Wolf Lake in the story when I was writing LoN/MMoL thread because in Ancient Egypt there is a Jackal Lake that surrounded the Sphinx - Sphinx originally rested on a moat in the middle and that lake was connected to a cult of resurrection and an entrance to underworld !!! Is there a possibility Rose of the (blue) Red Lake is the wolf lake of our story? I always thought Bran the Builder was the son, or second more specifically, of Rose and Brandon of the Bloody Blade which means starkcest is in the genes 

I don't see a lake by this name either when glancing over the maps, but we do have two lakes that lie close to the wolfswood in the north. Long Lake to the east and a lake with no name, that lies just south of the wolfwood at Torrhen's Square. The name of Torrhen's Square has always been curious to me, because the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Torrhen, is Torrhen Stark the King who Knelt, although there are other Torrhen's in the story. But this castle that is held by the Tallhart's is named Torrhen's Square. And now that I am thinking about it, it's odd that this lake is on maps and is mentioned, but it so far has not been named in our story. I am certain it has a name!  Just glancing at the map, this lake by Torrhen's Square and Long Lake lies in a line with Winterfell lying almost directly in the middle of the two lakes. I am not sure if that means anything or not!

It's also possible that this lake does lie in the south and has been renamed, but I kind of am drawn to the idea that the wolf lake would lie near the wolf wood, and possibly near a wolf "valley" which is something I just posted about upthread. 

IF Rose of Red (blue) Lake and Brandon of the Bloody Blade had a child, it would certainly put some Starkcest on the radar from way back when mythical figures like Garth Greenhand walked the earth. But if GRRM is following idea's in world mythology, then sibling incest shows up often with the gods, at least in greek, roman, egyptian and norse myths. GRRM is obviously unafraid to use it with the Targaryen's, who seem to see themselves as types of gods!

And not to completely derail this post, but Stark in Norse translates to Strong. I know this is not news to anyone, but it has recently rung my bell again about how the "seed is strong" and how that could link back to the Stark seed being strong. In the last heresy thread, I think it was Feather Crystal who discussed the idea of pregnancy quickening and at what stage in pregnancy that might first be felt. When doing a search of pregnancy quickening in the text, the second and third links to quickening is to Ned Stark's seed, when Catelyn is hoping his seed will quicken and that she understood that while on campaign his seed would quicken (which she links to Jon, but perhaps incorrectly). These are both from Game Cat II. The first link in the text, and the forth and fifth in Game, are all in Dany's chapters. The first is in Dany I, when she talks about being a quickening in her mother's womb, and the last two are in regards to MMD prophecy and if her womb will quicken again. Man oh man, I have kind of denied that Dany could be Ned's child for a long time, but those first three links, two of which are about Ned's seed quickening, and one to Dany being a "quickening" flared on my radar!

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

And not to completely derail this post, but Stark in Norse translates to Strong. 

Likewise in German.

The first volume by the by is entitled Die Herren von Winterfell in Germany, but I don't know what Ser Robert Strong translates as.

 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

"November 16, 2000 GRRM" How things change in a couple of years :-)

Uh huh, the old SSMs are loaded with awkward remarks like that. 

There's an interview where he predicts being finished with ASOIAF by 2006, for instance. How much better the show would have been, if he had finished it then, or the next year, or next year, or any year prior to the show passing the books.

27 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Likewise in German.

Hence Jon's personal motto: "Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich Starker." 

Seems quite apt given what we last saw Jon going through, and what he may well become.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I really like your breakdown of these words. I do think GRRM looks at words in this way. An interesting thought I had while reading your post is that we have a "hall of the slain" in our story, and it's the Crypts of Winterfell. Only the chosen get statues, stone direwolves and iron swords. As if their purpose is larger than some other of Stark blood, because they were Lord of Winterfell at one time. Our outliers are Brandon, Lyanna, and Artos Stark, who are not lords, but have statues. And your idea of Darkness (dall) also fits the idea of the hall of the Stark's. But of course, that strongly links Val and Dalla to the Kings of Winter or at least the crypts below Winterfell.

As mentioned, I like the breakdown on Val and Dalla's names. One thing that stood out to me about Dalla, or dall, as you have found in Old Irish, is the idea of Ulfdalir, or wolf dales, as being a place in Norse mythology that  is noted to be "the northernmost edge of the world, not far from one of the tunnels which lead down to the Underworld". Doesn't this sound like the North and Winterfell? That translation can be found here. So, ulf is the root of wolf in that word, with dales meaning valley in Norse or Old English, which is here, So, Ulfdalir is a wolf valley possibly. Dal or dala, as it could be spelled, is very similar to Dalla's name. You have laid out a nice translation for both Val and Dalla, but if we look just at the Norse, we would get "chooser of the slain" and a vale or valley location. 

A winter hill overlooking a wolf valley! Even a dark wolf valley, maybe?

I like the translation for dal or dales meaning valley because it fits with my idea's on Winterfell, with fell or fjell (another old english or old norse word) meaning mountain or high hill, and I like the idea of Winterfell being the Winter Hill or Hill of Winter, where the Kings of Winter rule. Since it seems like Winterfell sits on some type of geothermic heat source, it seems like a good location for people to come for shelter and survival in the winter.

In Heresy 212 we had a short discussion about The Dagda, an Irish god that had control over life, death (including rising the dead), time and the seasons.

The Dagda is one of the Tuatha Dé Danann, ancestors of the aes sidhe. They now live in the Otherworld that can be reached through burial mounds. Associated to these burial mounds we have the Cù Sìth (scottish) or Cŵn Annwn (welsh) that are basically sidhe hell hounds...not  a wolf but close enough?

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

If on the other hand there was, during the Long Night, a crown-wearing leader of the Popsicles instructing them and the wights to murder people and overwhelm human defenses, transforming human territories into "the dead lands," that would be pretty damn overt.

That assumes that whoever/whatever was directing the ice horde would have ever revealed themselves openly in the first place, much less revealed themselves and allowed people to live to tell the tale. For example, if a shadowbinder were sending shadow assassins against you, and this was the first time in history that this had happened, would you know who your real enemy was? 

To repeat, "white walker leader" to me covers an extremely broad range of potential ideas--not specifically and literally what has been depicted in the show, or even specifically a white walker. Gun to my head, what I expect is that the WWs are not presently being lead or directed, and that Bran will wrest control of them before series' end. Nonetheless, I see no reason to take the RLJ approach where a single expectation becomes the prism through which I filter everything, when I can have many theories for what might ultimately be revealed about the Others.
 

4 hours ago, JNR said:

I consider it a consequence of the way he let the political plotline (book one of his original trilogy, meant to be only a third of the story) completely overwhelm his series, to the point where it became five books and something like a million and a half words.

I think you're exactly right. 

I still say that GRRM's chosen structure - each chapter 'belongs' to a single POV, each POV has an arc unto themselves - was an insane way to tell a story of this scale. At the least, I think he could have made his life so much easier for himself if he had kept his core POVs, but then utilized occasional Interlude chapters that are united by geography/plot/theme, perhaps as collections of minor viewpoints.

[JNR]

10 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Gun to my head, what I expect is that the WWs are not presently being lead or directed, and that Bran will wrest control of them before series' end.

I agree, except that I think he will not do that... though if he tries, that won't surprise me and will make for an interesting chapter.  The limits of his power in this area are surely going to come up.

11 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I still say that GRRM's chosen structure - each chapter 'belongs' to a single POV, each POV has an arc unto themselves - was an insane way to tell a story of this scale

It's clearly something he needed to exercise more discipline over, in some ways. 

For instance, the sheer number of POVs.  Every time he creates a new one, he must ponder extremely carefully what that character knows... does not know... has done in the past, or is going to do down the road.  He must also modify the style of speech and thought (Bran's style cannot resemble Arys Oakheart's), etc.  

It's a godawful challenge of continuity to do that with a large number of POVs, and much easier with a smaller, tidier number.

Thing is, he really seems to like exploring new POVs -- much as he likes exploring new physical areas -- and it's to the detriment of his tale because both new POVs and new physical areas tend to dial up the wordcount to crazy levels.   I've read AFFC and ADWD twice now and really can't see that Quentyn's and Brienne's chapters justified GRRM's time, or my time. I wonder if he'd do them differently based on what he knows today, or if he knows something about the last two books that justifies them in ways invisible to everybody else.

So yeah, the question of how to optimize the POV structure is probably his #1 challenge in the last two books.  I hope he's given it a lot of careful thought since writing the sample TWOW chapters we've read, because they don't suggest to me that he's optimized very much. 

Efficiency needs to be his overarching goal, but that's how architects think -- not gardeners.

[Black Crow]

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

Efficiency needs to be his overarching goal, but that's how architects think -- not gardeners.

And of course, as he has admitted, his gardening leads the tale and the characters in strange and unexpected directions as the multitude of POVs develop characters of their own. He has famously said that he hasn't altered stuff because a very few people have figured things out, but that's not the same thing as altering things because he wants to. He's been working on this story for over a quarter of a century now. How much has his thinking changed?

If we go back to the original synopsis. That + the ending was what he had back in 1993; a clear framework to work on. He should have been able to fill in the blanks to complete the projected three volumes as envisaged relatively quickly. Instead he took up gardening and we're where we are. So much has changed that we can't be sure the ending hasn't.

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The first volume by the by is entitled Die Herren von Winterfell in Germany, but I don't know what Ser Robert Strong translates as.

The Men from Winterfell? If my translation is correct? That is pretty telling if that is how the book is titled!!!  Thanks for sharing that!

ETA: So this sent me down a little translation rabbit hole with the German titles. I am assuming some of the novels were splint into smaller books. Some of the titles caught me very off guard!!! Pretty cool!

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

In Heresy 212 we had a short discussion about The Dagda, an Irish god that had control over life, death (including rising the dead), time and the seasons.

The Dagda is one of the Tuatha Dé Danann, ancestors of the aes sidhe. They now live in the Otherworld that can be reached through burial mounds. Associated to these burial mounds we have the Cù Sìth (scottish) or Cŵn Annwn (welsh) that are basically sidhe hell hounds...not  a wolf but close enough?

I remember this, I think. In relation to the Morrigan, as his consort. He also had another wife, and she gave birth to a child that died was resurrected. Also tied to Newgrange, which I cam across with the cairns and cists and burial's rabbit hole I fell into. I also remember the hell hounds discussion, because it made me think of the Hounds of the Baskervilles and how it seems to fit Shaggydog a bit. Or at least a family that has been cursed to be haunted/hunted by spectral hell hounds. I would think for the purpose that GRRM is going for,  hellhounds and wolves could fit the same role!!!

I need to look back into those discussions to refresh my memory a bit!

 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

He should have been able to fill in the blanks to complete the projected three volumes as envisaged relatively quickly. Instead he took up gardening and we're where we are. So much has changed that we can't be sure the ending hasn't.

Broadly agreed, though they would have to have been three mighty volumes. 

Even the world's most efficient writer would have struggled, for instance, to get books 1-3 into a single volume of half a million words and still do the world and characters justice.

At this point... yes, he may have changed the ending somewhat, as a concession to the available narrative time and space, though I would think it's less about the nature of the ending, and more about the implementation.

This is what I had in mind for a consultant, actually.  Not someone who would tell him "Do Twist A, and throw away Twist B," but something more like "Let's figure out how to do your twist in ten thousand words, not thirty thousand... and avoid contradicting those other chapters you wrote so painstakingly." 

If I had to guess, the corner into which he claims he painted himself is that sort of thing.  There are various solutions, and some are much more efficient than others, and he could use fresh eyes helping him decide which is best.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The Men from Winterfell? If my translation is correct? That is pretty telling if that is how the book is titled!!!  Thanks for sharing that!

ETA: So this sent me down a little translation rabbit hole with the German titles. I am assuming some of the novels were splint into smaller books. Some of the titles caught me very off guard!!! Pretty cool!

Herren in the context of a castle refers to the ruling family and should be translated as lords or nobles. GRRM uses words that sound german, however the source of the words is too unknown to come to any conclusions. Stark is such an example, where I would assume he just used comic names. 

Winterfell is also an example, that is better seen as an (old) english word. I cannot even translate it, as I do not know if it has the same meaning in english. It would be a combination of winter fur, winter coat and snow camouflage in combination with some proverbs. (e.g. having a thick skin would be having a thick fur in german). It's is a really deep hole with all the skinchanging and skinning going on. 

And it is questionable, if GRRM even went down that hole. If he did, it would be a hell of an achievement. And it would make Bolton a very central part of the story.

 

7 hours ago, JNR said:

"Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich Starker." 

get out

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

ETA: So this sent me down a little translation rabbit hole with the German titles. I am assuming some of the novels were splint into smaller books. Some of the titles caught me very off guard!!! Pretty cool!

It's just how the german fantasy book market used to work. Books are split for a higher revenue, the titles are there to transport an very general image of the book. There is no deeper meaning.