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Aegon III's dismissal of his Hand and regents: Thoughts?

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7 hours ago, SerBronnsMullet said:

The Lads should have been in the regency, or at least Kermit, but I think other lords were afraid that letting them on the council would be an implicit admission that Aegon's youth shouldn't prevent him from taking some responsibility for the realm.

Oh I agree. Same with Alyn really, although his being a bastard also worked against him.

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4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Oh I agree. Same with Alyn really, although his being a bastard also worked against him.

Alyn not getting master of ships is a joke since he was doing the job anyway.

Btw who do we think Aegon named as his Hand when the regency ended? We obviously know Viserys keeps the job for a long time, but I would guess someone else had the job before him at least for a little while. Maybe Kermit?

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27 minutes ago, SerBronnsMullet said:

Alyn not getting master of ships is a joke since he was doing the job anyway.

Btw who do we think Aegon named as his Hand when the regency ended? We obviously know Viserys keeps the job for a long time, but I would guess someone else had the job before him at least for a little while. Maybe Kermit?

Kermit didn't seem to do much in King's Landing, He just arrived with army and then left.

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Kermit is a likely candidate for Aegon III's first Hand, Lord Cregan could be another. Benjicot Blackwood might also serve in that capacity in the future, although that would have to take time.

One expects that Alyn Velaryon serves in the office as well, although only some years later considering that Tywin was the youngest Hand at the age of twenty.

Prince Viserys thus has to wait at least six years starting in 136 AC. And since Tywin seems to have been an exceptionally young Hand Viserys likely only got the office in his early or even later twenties.

I expect Alyn Velaryon to not exactly excel at the Handship if he were named to the office early, considering he is still a very rash youth during the Regency era - while it was presumptuous of the regents to exclude him, it is also clear that he is not yet a very experienced negotiator/politician. The Hand has a lot of responsibilities and many of those include the tedium of day-to-day rule.

But we can imagine that the next step after the dismissal of the regents and the Hand was a thorough house-cleaning involving the other high, mid-level, and lower offices as well. Any remaining Peake appointments should be undone, i.e. the Osgrey woman as head of the queen's household and the Peake Master of Ships - one assumes that this office was then immediately granted to Alyn Velaryon in absentia (he is still on his second voyage in late 136/early 137 AC. I expect the maester serving as Lord Confessor was kept - that's an ominous appointment which possibly is a hint for maester involvement in the death of the dragons - and, of course, Lucas Lothston was kept as master-at-arms considering that Prince Viserys had grown fond of him.

One imagines, though, that Aegon III's informal Hand is going to be his brother Viserys from the start. The man does speak much and we already know that this is not going to change as he grows older, meaning that both Viserys and Queen Daenaera likely stepped in for the king whenever he was not willing or not able to attend council sessions, court audiences, etc. The chance that Aegon III ever allowed anyone but close family (i.e. Viserys, Daenaera, Alyn, and possibly his half-sisters) to sit the Iron Throne or speak for him is very unlikely.

The brother of the king doesn't really need an office if it is pretty clear to everyone that he speaks for the king whenever the king is absent.

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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 3:53 PM, The hairy bear said:

What surprised me the most while reading the Regency chapters is precisely how not a single one of the regents tried to befriend Aegon, or at least care a little bit about his feelings. One would have expected that at least one of them would have realized that the boy would son reach his majority and it might be a good idea to be on his good side. Specially with the terrible experiences that Aegon had endured during the Regency, with the attempted poisoning and the siege at Maegor's Holdfast.

THIS. yes, I think the fact that he wasn't really instructed on how to rule well, or consulted on ruling manners, in addition to his horrific childhood, made Aegon III who he was.

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47 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Kermit didn't seem to do much in King's Landing, He just arrived with army and then left.

He makes sense as a Hand candidate, though, because he's not connected to any of the regents that Aegon disliked, he is a powerful lord, he is loyal and trustworthy, and is a good soldier, which the crown desperately needs.

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4 minutes ago, SerBronnsMullet said:

He makes sense as a Hand candidate, though, because he's not connected to any of the regents that Aegon disliked, he is a powerful lord, he is loyal and trustworthy, and is a good soldier, which the crown desperately needs.

Myles Smallwood was also loyal and a good soldier and was terrible hand. I also don't recall if Kermit ever even spoke with Aegon III. Maybe he was Hand, I am just personally not convinced.

Anyway, Aegon seemed to trust somewhat Tyland, Corlys and his grandson Alyn. There is also Daemion, uncle of Aegon's wife - we know nothing about him, but he may have been appointed to the small council given his relation to the King.

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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 3:53 PM, The hairy bear said:

What surprised me the most while reading the Regency chapters is precisely how not a single one of the regents tried to befriend Aegon, or at least care a little bit about his feelings. One would have expected that at least one of them would have realized that the boy would son reach his majority and it might be a good idea to be on his good side. Specially with the terrible experiences that Aegon had endured during the Regency, with the attempted poisoning and the siege at Maegor's Holdfast.

We get a few instances where it's established that Aegon clearly doesn't want to talk to people, let alone be around them. Who has time to try and connect with a surly teenager who doesn't bother talking back? He won't take any initiative to do anything on his own, he literally has to have Gaemon Palehair whipped before he bothers to make any kind of effort (people might blame Gareth Long for that, but what else were his options? Let Aegon not train or exercise? It's not Long's fault that he was forced to resort to the whipping boy method). 

Torrhen Manderly wanted to get Aegon out of the castle. He might not have liked Aegon but he did care that the growing king needed worldly experience and he needed to know more about the people he was about to rule. Torrhen wanted to give the boy some proper experiences and socializing that he'd never willingly seek on his own. And what does Aegon do? Tells Torrhen to get out of his chair and then get out of his castle while also telling all the nobles of Westeros that their time and preparation and expenses were all one big fat waste. 

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3 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

We get a few instances where it's established that Aegon clearly doesn't want to talk to people, let alone be around them. Who has time to try and connect with a surly teenager who doesn't bother talking back? He won't take any initiative to do anything on his own, he literally has to have Gaemon Palehair whipped before he bothers to make any kind of effort (people might blame Gareth Long for that, but what else were his options? Let Aegon not train or exercise? It's not Long's fault that he was forced to resort to the whipping boy method). 

Torrhen Manderly wanted to get Aegon out of the castle. He might not have liked Aegon but he did care that the growing king needed worldly experience and he needed to know more about the people he was about to rule. Torrhen wanted to give the boy some proper experiences and socializing that he'd never willingly seek on his own. And what does Aegon do? Tells Torrhen to get out of his chair and then get out of his castle while also telling all the nobles of Westeros that their time and preparation and expenses were all one big fat waste. 

Goddamn, you really hate Aegon III don't you? And it's not like a typical rant from an obvious douchebag, I've interacted with you loads of times on this site, and you're not a troll or a shock jock. This just really seems to anger you. It's kind of baffling.

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Just now, Canon Claude said:

Goddamn, you really hate Aegon III don't you? And it's not like a typical rant from an obvious douchebag, I've interacted with you loads of times on this site, and you're not a troll or a shock jock. This just really seems to anger you. It's kind of baffling.

Honestly, I initially thought I came off too strong in my early posts, but the more I think about it, no. It's not like with obviously bad kings like Maegor or Aerys I or Aegon IV, where we all nod our heads and go "boy, he was a terrible guy". People are so quick to wave away everything in Aegon III's life as not being his fault. And sure, a lot of it wasn't his fault, but he did nothing at all to change or do anything about it. We know from the history that he isn't remembered well, and I can see why the more we learn about him. Even his supposed shining moment of being with plague victims rings hollow because he really didn't do anything except just sit there in silence. He didn't cry, didn't communicate, he was just there. People took comfort in his presence because of the crown on his head, not because of who he was. He might as well have left the royal crown on the chair and let the superstitious smallfolk touch it like a holy relic. It would have had the same effect.

And frankly, if I was Unwin Peake or Alyn Velaryon, I'd have murdered Aegon III, by proxy or by myself, as soon as Viserys was recovered. Then I'd crown Viserys instead. Lord knows he would have been the king that Westeros really needed, based on what we know of him. 

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Just now, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And frankly, if I was Unwin Peake or Alyn Velaryon, I'd have murdered Aegon III, by proxy or by myself, as soon as Viserys was recovered. Then I'd crown Viserys instead. Lord knows he would have been the king that Westeros really needed, based on what we know of him. 

To quote Ned Stark, "You're speaking of murdering a child..."

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6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Myles Smallwood was also loyal and a good soldier and was terrible hand. I also don't recall if Kermit ever even spoke with Aegon III. Maybe he was Hand, I am just personally not convinced.

Aegon III doesn't know many people personally. But one would assume that he would pick his first Hand out of the men who helped to seat him on his throne rather than those who tried to prevent that. Kermit was at court until after the coronation and marriage, so one assumes Aegon III has a better picture of him than other people. Cregan clearly left an impression, too, hence the idea he might call him to KL - or try to do that and, perhaps, fail.

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Anyway, Aegon seemed to trust somewhat Tyland, Corlys and his grandson Alyn. There is also Daemion, uncle of Aegon's wife - we know nothing about him, but he may have been appointed to the small council given his relation to the King.

Daemion is likely not known to Aegon III personally, and what he knows of him is that he fought against his mother and him during the Dance. That would be a very odd and obscure choice for a Hand.

Tyland seems to have grown to like Aegon III - or rather: to respect him and treat him the way a king deserves to be treated due to his station. Aegon III tending for him like he tended to so many others when they died is a touching scene but due to the fact that the boy never said anything as to why he was doing that we don't really know whether this was pity and compassion or rather curiosity and/or a morbid fascination with death and dying. Considering his overall personality I'd say the latter is much more likely.

In that sense we should not read too much into that touching deathbed scene.

By the way - there was a regent trying to bond with/get to know Aegon III - Grand Maester Munkun. But it didn't work. We can reasonably assume that others tried to do that as well, perhaps even Unwin Peake when he first came to court, but it clearly didn't work.

If you want to befriend a king it only works when he lets you. You cannot tried to dominate the conversation, ask questions, push him, etc. - not even with a minor king. If you do that, you won't befriend him.

Overall - the progress was a reasonably good idea insofar as it would have allowed the smallfolk to see their new king and queen and allow them to form a bond with them. Capering to the lords would have been not unimportant, too, but if you want to do justice you have to give the people an opportunity to reach you. Sitting on the Iron Throne isn't enough.

Dismissing Manderly was great. Aegon III is right that a king should choose his own Hand

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And frankly, if I was Unwin Peake or Alyn Velaryon, I'd have murdered Aegon III, by proxy or by myself, as soon as Viserys was recovered. Then I'd crown Viserys instead. Lord knows he would have been the king that Westeros really needed, based on what we know of him. 

That is just nonsense. People who do or try to do stuff like that die screaming.

More importantly, Viserys doesn't need to wear a crown to effectively be king while Aegon III wears the crown. From what we know we cannot expect a forceful lead from the Broken King.

And I think Viserys is going to be much darker once his beloved wife dumps him. It is quite clear that their dear subjects will hound Larra the witch out of Westeros, a fact that's not likely to cause Viserys to love the people. We hear that the man develops into a cold and calculating guy, and likely also a pretty vindictive one. Both he and Aegon III would be lousy Targaryens if they did not punish everybody they believe was involved in the various plots.

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23 hours ago, SerBronnsMullet said:

The Lads should have been in the regency, or at least Kermit, but I think other lords were afraid that letting them on the council would be an implicit admission that Aegon's youth shouldn't prevent him from taking some responsibility for the realm.

They were excellent on the battlefield but off the battlefield they were still young and inexperienced. 

Kermit Tully, Lord of Riverrun, was their liege lord, and nominally commander of their host…but it must be remembered that his lordship was but nineteen years of age, and “green as summer grass,” as the northmen might say. His brother Oscar, who had slain three men during the Muddy Mess and been knighted on the battlefield afterward, was still greener, and cursed with the sort of prickly pride so common in second sons.

We only have to look at their interactions with Cregan to see their use as councillors

The Lads found themselves overmatched. Cowed, they gave way, and agreed to join their own power to Lord Stark’s when he marched against Storm’s End.

They were not yet ready to act as Regents.

 

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyland seems to have grown to like Aegon III - or rather: to respect him and treat him the way a king deserves to be treated due to his station. Aegon III tending for him like he tended to so many others when they died is a touching scene but due to the fact that the boy never said anything as to why he was doing that we don't really know whether this was pity and compassion or rather curiosity and/or a morbid fascination with death and dying. Considering his overall personality I'd say the latter is much more likely.

In that sense we should not read too much into that touching deathbed scene.

There is quote that suggests Aegon at least somewhat grew to respect Tyland.

“I would have Lord Rowan as my Hand. Ser Tyland thought well enough of him to offer him my sister’s hand in marriage, so I know he can be trusted.”

He wanted to name Thaddeus Rowan as his Hand solely based on fact that Tyland tried to marry Baela to Rowan. Therefore, it looks like at least he didn't hold any bad feelings towards Tyland.

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12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They were excellent on the battlefield but off the battlefield they were still young and inexperienced. 

Kermit Tully, Lord of Riverrun, was their liege lord, and nominally commander of their host…but it must be remembered that his lordship was but nineteen years of age, and “green as summer grass,” as the northmen might say. His brother Oscar, who had slain three men during the Muddy Mess and been knighted on the battlefield afterward, was still greener, and cursed with the sort of prickly pride so common in second sons.

We only have to look at their interactions with Cregan to see their use as councillors

The Lads found themselves overmatched. Cowed, they gave way, and agreed to join their own power to Lord Stark’s when he marched against Storm’s End.

They were not yet ready to act as Regents.

 

I don't think the lads should have been regents. They were too young, you're correct. I do however think that they should have been given some sort of a role at court (or at least offered it). Like I said; Ben, Cregan and Jeyne were the ones who fought for the Blacks the whole war and never switched allegiences once while Kermit led the Tully's to a great victory that practically ended the Green's.

IMO the regents should have been Corlys and Jeyne with Tyland as Hand and thats it, with Kermit and Ben being brought in as minor advisory roles; nothing significant, just a reward for their loyalty and to keep some young, loyal people around Aegon. Introducing I think six other contenders for power in K.L. was a recipe for disaster.

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7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

There is quote that suggests Aegon at least somewhat grew to respect Tyland.

“I would have Lord Rowan as my Hand. Ser Tyland thought well enough of him to offer him my sister’s hand in marriage, so I know he can be trusted.”

He wanted to name Thaddeus Rowan as his Hand solely based on fact that Tyland tried to marry Baela to Rowan. Therefore, it looks like at least he didn't hold any bad feelings towards Tyland.

That is a good point. But it still doesn't mean Aegon III liked Tyland particularly, only, as you say, that he respected him and/or his opinion. It clearly indicates, though, that he trusted him and his judgment more than the judgment/intentions of his other regents, especially Unwin Peake.

But my point about Aegon III as 'the angel of death' was more a general statement. We cannot use his actions during the Winter Fever as evidence that he was full of compassion or very empathic. The boy seems to have been very straightforward in nature - doing only things he liked/felt a need to do. Think of his training at arms, him throwing aside Gaemon Palehair once he got Viserys back, etc. If he had felt sad for the people dying he would have said so. That he didn't do that makes those visits akin to his nightly watching of the stars - which are not motivated by curiosity but seem to be an expression of a much deeper and darker yearning - likely revolving around death and the end of things, etc.

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