Jon's Small Council and Kingsguard

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

Why were the dothrakis the worst lot? They were a simple folk big on horses, bows, and arakh.  They value strength and camaraderie above all.  I assume you were referring to some of there other favorites like pillaging murdering raping stealing all religious idols. And selling slaves I think kinda does put them in a bad spot.  Taking over the khalasar is removing another piece of the bad slave economy.  There is plenty of lands and titles to be won in war that's how that goes.  The dothrakii are gonna help repopulate some parts of westeros after the long night. Lets hope they finally decide to be a peaceful group. But probably not. Lots of wars to come and ravens to send. Plans fall into place exactly as they should for Dany because she is magic and maybe I'm a bad fan for enjoying that.  I also like cersei a lot too because to me she gives the littlest f***$ about what anyone else thinks and I respect that gangster. I just think she is buck wild crazy and I think that's hilarious as well.  And she pounds wine...the lannister teenage drinking days were probably epic fun.  Cersei is so far gone though and losing all 3 kids has to be unbelievably unbearable. I feel like she is the mad queen. And there is way less evidence in Dany as mad queen. But its in her roots lol so season 8 could very well go that direction.  This biggest thing that would ever shock me would be Cersei deciding to join the fight against the others(white walkers) and be an honorable queen. I would love for that twist to happen. I would wager against it though 

[Kajjo]

14 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

they are both playing the game of thrones. Both ruthless. And we have yet to see where one will stop.

"When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win or die." -- and that's how the Song of Ice and Fire will end. 

[Kajjo]

12 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

They value strength and camaraderie above all.

No, that is too romantic... No camaraderie there, each one on his own. You fell, you are done for. Even weddings end in several people dying. They are cruel, strong, ready to die and endure pain. No place for romanticism left. They don't even have a word for "thanks" as we learnt.

The Dothraki most probably will die in the war against the Others. No other solution. And they are not really fit for cold conditions anyway. 

[BalerionTheCat]

13 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

Why were the dothrakis the worst lot?

They are the worst. Don't you remember 1st season? "She is a lamb girl, Khaleesi. The riders do her honor. If her wailing offends the Khaleesi, I will bring you her tongue."

The Dothraki sea was a land like the 7 kingdoms before. Kingdoms at war with each other. Once, a king enlisted a powerful Khal, to fight his enemies. A bit like Daenerys did. The Khal killed the enemies, then his employer, then the other cities. Not one stone was left standing. This is their religion. Maybe they will change. But I doubt they will ever farm a piece of land.

I have no soft spot for Cersei. OK she is fun to read in the books. A bit less in the show. But she did much too much damage to get out with it. And I would believe it's the same for Daenerys.

13 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

There is plenty of lands and titles to be won in war that's how that goes.

That's not how it should be. When a king sends his people to die on a battlefield, just for the purpose of defending his birthright, then he is no better than the slaver with the power of death or life on his slaves.

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

No, that is too romantic... No camaraderie there, each one on his own. You fell, you are done for. Even weddings end in several people dying. They are cruel, strong, ready to die and endure pain. No place for romanticism left. They don't even have a word for "thanks" as we learnt.

The Dothraki most probably will die in the war against the Others. No other solution. And they are not really fit for cold conditions anyway. 

Dothraki have power in their numbers there way is a cruel way to be sure but I would argue they are not each on their own, we encounter few, if any that I recall, on their own like as sellswords or something. they run in hordes and call their closest friends blood family.  But obviously strength is their number one priority bred out of necessity for survival.  It is their way that loyalty gives way to strength every time.  I don't believe there are any still alive that we know of by name in the show. They are all kinds just part of Danys plot armor at this point. She needed armies... She got the unsullied on foot and the dothraki on horseback. I really hope they don't waste much time in season 8 with dothraki drama, Plenty of bigger and more interesting fish to fry imho. 

[Kajjo]

55 minutes ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

I really hope they don't waste much time in season 8 with dothraki drama, Plenty of bigger and more interesting fish to fry imho. 

I agree. More than enough other lose ends to tie up.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

I agree. More than enough other lose ends to tie up.

I suppose they will just be food and recruits for the WW. They were just base soldiers last season.
Too bad, they too were fun when on their own.

[Mystical]

23 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I suppose Mystical is here referring to books' Astapor. After freeing the town, she left former slaves to rule it. Like Daario in the show. The slaves became worse slavers than their former masters. The unwise masters I would say. Now Salver's Bay is enduring a plague worst than the Middle Ages' Black Death. The Pale Mare. Obviously in reference to Daenerys. Astapor is deserted, everyone dead or fled or slave elsewhere. Last news Meereen was bombarded by diseased corpses. And the plague in every army camp.

Not referring to the books. We saw Tyrion & Varys come across a slave and her baby, clearing living on the street. We have the old slave who asks to be allowed to sell himself back to his former master because of the conditions in the shelters. We see Meereen bombarded and we hear of the take back of the other cities. Doesn't take a genius to know that hunger, disease, abuse and war was the life of Slaver's Bay after Dany invaded and overthrew the previous rulers.

22 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

You are removing the context and claim the similarities make it the same.

I'm pretty sure you are removing context or chose to ignore such. As @BalerionTheCatmentioned, Dany was already in the clear of any threat to herself. They had decided to let her be with the Dosh Khaleen. When you get down to it and look at context, what Cersei did was actually less evil in motive than Dany. Anyone smart enough knew the outcome of Cersei's trial...death. Cersei chose self preservation. Nothing wrong with that. She also decided she was going to take most of her enemies out at the same time. There was no threat on Dany's life at all. She chose to antagonize the Khals and tell them how worthless they were and she was taking over, right before she murdered them. Dany's main motive was POWER, by getting rid of the current rulers so she could acquire herself a giant army that she could use to subjugate Westeros.

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

21 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

They are the worst. Don't you remember 1st season? "She is a lamb girl, Khaleesi. The riders do her honor. If her wailing offends the Khaleesi, I will bring you her tongue."

The Dothraki sea was a land like the 7 kingdoms before. Kingdoms at war with each other. Once, a king enlisted a powerful Khal, to fight his enemies. A bit like Daenerys did. The Khal killed the enemies, then his employer, then the other cities. Not one stone was left standing. This is their religion. Maybe they will change. But I doubt they will ever farm a piece of land.

I have no soft spot for Cersei. OK she is fun to read in the books. A bit less in the show. But she did much too much damage to get out with it. And I would believe it's the same for Daenerys.

That's not how it should be. When a king sends his people to die on a battlefield, just for the purpose of defending his birthright, then he is no better than the slaver with the power of death or life on his slaves.

I agreed look back at my post(the parts you didn't quote). The point I was making is yay Dany for removing a group that was part of the slave economy. Even on her way out of essos she is desperately trying to fix their broken system. The wheel she broke was in Essos, and again yay Dany, but she is a foreigner to those lands. She had to go east before she could go west because she was a teen girl that needed to become a little more grown up . And her dragons needed to grow and she needed to find armies.  Also westeros needed time for winter to come and wars to be fought.  I always thought her main arc is mostly about her being the stormborn and the unburnt. She is one of if not the last dragon, her family was dealt with for their crimes but that left her with Viserys idiot self. So I think she did a pretty good job given the hand she was dealt.  Its ok for Cersei to blow up the Sept for her 'self preservation' in a terrible spot she put herself in but Dany isn't allowed to get revenge. They killed her dad...who deserved it ok, brother... its war...ok, sister in law... Unecessary, niece and nephew... Plain cruel. And then she got the worst kind of brother so she had to learn how big of an idiot he was and his word was what she was taking as big facts all her life.  I wish she had more time with Barry the Bold, fingers crossed for in the books, because there is a lot he can teach her about honor and not replicating her families past mistakes.

You are right war is not the answer...  The realm needs Westeros[World] peace. But slaving and having liege lord is so not the same thing.  Even though people die in wars and they may not really wanna fight in, after the war people who are lucky and brave enough to make it through go on living free lives. It is a sad thing for people to die and unnecessary for wars but medieval Westeros just isn't ready for a peace movement to take place.  It's ridiculously sad that Earth still isn't ready for peace amongst all humans... 

Which king started a war for his birthright? Balon Greyjoy I guess, I agree no one should have fought for him.  Wars happen for all sorts of reasons and I support Dany going to war to win back the throne her family created. If somehow she can provide peace and stability afterwards then that's the dream of spring.  

[BalerionTheCat]

15 hours ago, Mystical said:

She chose to antagonize the Khals and tell them how worthless they were and she was taking over, right before she murdered them.

More than once, she reminds the Dothrakis of Drogo oaths. Kill the men in iron suits and tear down stone houses. Her expectations seem clear. Or at least what they think they've come to Westeros for. The Dothrakis are also fond of raping women, enslaving children and burning gods. The other of Drogo's promises.

16 hours ago, Mystical said:

Cersei chose self preservation.

Funny. They were both on trial. And they both blew-up the jury. They both expected full obedience by everyone. And deal death to anyone who disagree. As any harsh slaver would do.

1 hour ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

Dany going to war to win back the throne her family created. If somehow she can provide peace and stability afterwards then that's the dream of spring.  

Ultimately no. Bran the Builder, likely the last hero built Winterfell eons ago. The North was more at peace than any other kingdom. No petty lord made alliance with andals invaders to make war with his neighbors. Whatever, the Starks were respected by most everyone. All but skinners and practitioners of dark magic.

When Aegon came, he said to Torrhen: give me your castle or I will burn your army. Torrhen knelt because he was caring more for his people than for his crown. Since then, the Targaryens brought Maegor's wars, the Dance of Dragons, the Blackfyre rebellions, the wars with Dorne. Nearly not one generation without wars. The Targaryens came from Valyria. They have no right to Westeros. They did most harm here. Aerys was not the worst. He was the weakest.

 

[Mystical]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Funny. They were both on trial. And they both blew-up the jury. They both expected full obedience by everyone. And deal death to anyone who disagree. As any harsh slaver would do.

Except the major difference is that Dany was granted life whereas we all know that Cersei would have received the death sentence. Even after antagonizing the Khals long before trial and violating the rules by not returning to Vaes Dothrak after Drogo's death, they decided to not kill-rape-abuse her but she could peacefully live her life among the Dosh Khaleen. Whereas Cersei, and hopefully the viewer, knew full well that the outcome of her trial was death. So Dany was given life, a restricted life but it's part of what she married into but life nonetheless. Whereas Cersei had every option taken from her (f.e. trial by combat) in order to make sure that she would be punished. And this would be after she had already been imprisoned, tortured and had her walk of shame.

So I'm way more understanding of Cersei's main concern (survival) than Dany's (power).

[BalerionTheCat]

41 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So I'm way more understanding of Cersei's main concern (survival) than Dany's (power).

Both Cersei and Daenerys primary goal is power, not just survival. Daenerys would have still been in a position of power in the Dosh Khaleen. But it was not what she wanted. Even if, as you said, she agreed to by marrying Khal Drogo. Daenerys is good at reminding others of their far ancestors' oaths. But she has difficulty of reminding her own.

[Mystical]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Both Cersei and Daenerys primary goal is power, not just survival.

I was talking specifically about the Sept vs Vaes Dothrak comparison. Cersei's main motivation was survival, eliminating her competition was just the icing on the cake. But her main goal was to escape the trial which would result in her death. While Dany couldn't have known what the Khal's decided so her main motivation was also survival..once inside with them and they made it clear that nothing would happen to her, she didn't abandon or change her plan. So her main motivation was power. And also because she knew no matter what they decided, they had open fire in there which was all Dany needed, so her life never really was in danger.

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

What a way to finish the Dany arc... And she lived happily ever after amongst the Dosh Khaleen.  Do you think Viserys warned her about this before he didn't care for her opinion at all about marrying Drogo?  

Cersei created her own problems, dany was the last thing the beggar king had to offer and was thrown into her situation.  

[Rose of Red Lake]

Well if she truly had a parallel arc with Jon (she doesn't), she would have stayed at the Dosh Khaleen, her prison, like Jon had to stay at the Night's Watch. Then like Jon she would have tried to affect change among the Dothraki from within, with limited power, like Jon had to do the entire time.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Well if she truly had a parallel arc with Jon (she doesn't), she would have stayed at the Dosh Khaleen, her prison, like Jon had to stay at the Night's Watch. Then like Jon she would have tried to affect change among the Dothraki from within, with limited power, like Jon had to do the entire time.

Exactly.

The Dosh Khaleen is the highest power for the Dothraki. First thing Drogo did was come to them. She could have changed their way of living from there. They were her people after she married him, She knew what would happen after his death. But she took the Khaleesi part without qualms. She never denied it. But when he died, she decided the rules were not for her. The stallion is "über alles". So it was what she wanted. Only the best for her.

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Well if she truly had a parallel arc with Jon (she doesn't), she would have stayed at the Dosh Khaleen, her prison, like Jon had to stay at the Night's Watch. Then like Jon she would have tried to affect change among the Dothraki from within, with limited power, like Jon had to do the entire time.

Jon didn't have to stay at the wall, he was not sent there as an only option. Jon willingly decided on his own to join the nights watch, and good for him the realm needs more Jon snow types.He rose to the top of command and then was murdered by his fellow crows for trying to enact change.  But the current  convo going on (albeit off-topic to the o.p.) was more about the similarities and differences between the arcs of Cersei and dany.  I think it would have made for boring storytelling to leave Dany with the Dosh for good.

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Exactly.

The Dosh Khaleen is the highest power for the Dothraki. First thing Drogo did was come to them. She could have changed their way of living from there. They were her people after she married him, She knew what would happen after his death. But she took the Khaleesi part without qualms. She never denied it. But when he died, she decided the rules were not for her. The stallion is "über alles". So it was what she wanted. Only the best for her.

I don't believe Dany had any choice in the matter.  How would her qualms have been resolved, what would have happened had she refused to marry Drogo. Viserys brokered the deal as a hail Mary to get himself on the throne.  No one cared to ask what Dany wanted. And soon after Drogo died she gave birth to the dragons.  She decided to be the mother of dragons not sit under the mother of mountains and I think the story is the better for it. Why should she not do what is best for her? Especially when the alternative is lame... What service would she be fulfilling with the Dosh? Why would that make the story more interesting? I guess you would have more respect for Danys character if she followed the Dothraki custom? I would see it as a waste of an interesting character.  Do you also think Jon Snow should have stayed at the wall after the ides? He went against his vow but i guess the watch killing him kinda gets him off the hook.

[Rose of Red Lake]

GRRM could write that story of her freeing the Dothraki slaves and reform the treatment of women as a member of the inner circle and write it well. She could have been a revolutionary from within and learned something from those older women but if I had to guess it was more important for her to have the agency to sack her own cities and take on a conquerors arc. That had a consequence, though, in that the Dothraki is not really a cultural group she respects, otherwise she wouldnt use them for more power for herself.

And the idea of having her parallel Jon is that instead of questing to find the next throne she can sit on, she would be mirroring Jon or even Sansa by working within a strange cultural envornment as a "nobody," with low status and hardly any power. But she was done with that by book 1 while the Starks continued in that role.

[BalerionTheCat]

17 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

I don't believe Dany had any choice in the matter. 

It is not that she had no choice. It is that she fully used the power of a Khaleesi. And she still pretends to it. And then refused its obligations when it came against her objectives.

17 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

She decided to be the mother of dragons not sit under the mother of mountains and I think the story is the better for it.

Oh yes, the story is much better that way... Like for Cersei.

Of course GRRM could have written a Daenerys pacifying the Dothrakis. D&D, I'm less sure. But yes, it's not her arc. She is Fire and Blood, War and Destruction. Jon has with him Davos, Sam, Sansa, even Tormund. He had Ned, Qhorin Halfhand, maester Aemon, old Mormont, Mance Rayder for teachers. She had her brother, the Dothrakis, Daario, the Sand Snakes and this company of vengeful, murderous women. She had Jorah Mormont, but she banished him for a time, Barristan but he died, Grey Worm but he is just a mindless weapon. Someone else (or more) will betray her. Clearly their arcs are opposite.

[nyser1]

I would like to give an answer but the show has not introduced enough characters and has killed way too many off. Will there be enough named characters? Or will Northern Guard #3 be how we identify one?