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ktm5124

How can Bran be the Night King if there's no NK in the books?

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I haven't read the books, admittedly, but I have read online that there's no Night King in the books. Then how can Bran be the Night King (according to a popular fan theory) if there's no Night King in the books? Does this theory suppose that GRRM will introduce the Night King later on and then reveal that Bran is actually the Night King? Isn't it a bit late for that?

This theory is very popular and quite explosive, especially considering the discovery that the White Walker army may have formed the Stark sigil in a scene when they were marching. I think it's likely that the White Walkers are in some way connected to the Starks, but doesn't the idea that Bran is the Night King seem a little farfetched?

Do any serious readers on this forum actually believe this theory or give it credibility?

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2 hours ago, ktm5124 said:

I haven't read the books, admittedly, but I have read online that there's no Night King in the books. Then how can Bran be the Night King (according to a popular fan theory) if there's no Night King in the books? Does this theory suppose that GRRM will introduce the Night King later on and then reveal that Bran is actually the Night King? Isn't it a bit late for that?

This theory is very popular and quite explosive, especially considering the discovery that the White Walker army may have formed the Stark sigil in a scene when they were marching. I think it's likely that the White Walkers are in some way connected to the Starks, but doesn't the idea that Bran is the Night King seem a little farfetched?

Do any serious readers on this forum actually believe this theory or give it credibility?

I think all the "Bran is the Night King" theories are show only theories. We've only seen the Others twice in the books. First in the prologue when they kill the rangers, and second when Sam kills one of them. We don't know who leads the Others in the books, or if they even have a leader. Melisandre keeps bringing up a being called the Great Other, which is supposedly the enemy of R'hllor. 

 

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This fan theory is pure nonsense und extremely unlikely.

Bran and the Night King are enemies. The NK was able to find Bran in the cave of the three-eyed raven, because they made contact while Bran's greenseeing. It make no sense at all to think Bran and the NK are the same.

In the last season Bran warged into a raven to see the wall come down. This make only sense if he is not identical with the NK.

Maybe the raven and the NK are somehow complementary, though. We know the NK was created by the Children of the Forest, so the three-eyed raven might have been created by their magic, too. The Children know the hidden cave of the three-eyed raven and are prepared to die for Bran. There is a certain connection between the NK and Bran, but we do not know what it is yet. My guess is something along "complementary".

I expect that there will be some leading figure in the books as well. We are just not far enough there, yet.

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On 3/6/2019 at 4:59 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Because the tv writers made up their own story they like better.

Bran is the Night King is just a fan theory. A rather bad one. It is not show canon either.

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On 3/5/2019 at 10:44 PM, Euron III Greyjoy said:

I think all the "Bran is the Night King" theories are show only theories. We've only seen the Others twice in the books. First in the prologue when they kill the rangers, and second when Sam kills one of them. We don't know who leads the Others in the books, or if they even have a leader. Melisandre keeps bringing up a being called the Great Other, which is supposedly the enemy of R'hllor.

The Great Other is IMO the Lion of Night, another name for the god of Death. And the Others are his servants (TWoIaF). God and demons, they existed even before men were created. The Night's King was an early Lord Commander of the NW. He was probably a Stark. He made an alliance with the Others, who were apparently still around after the LN. He was destroyed. Everything else is D&D wishful thinking.

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On 3/6/2019 at 3:37 PM, Kajjo said:

This fan theory is pure nonsense und extremely unlikely.

Bran and the Night King are enemies. The NK was able to find Bran in the cave of the three-eyed raven, because they made contact while Bran's greenseeing. It make no sense at all to think Bran and the NK are the same.

In the last season Bran warged into a raven to see the wall come down. This make only sense if he is not identical with the NK.

Maybe the raven and the NK are somehow complementary, though. We know the NK was created by the Children of the Forest, so the three-eyed raven might have been created by their magic, too. The Children know the hidden cave of the three-eyed raven and are prepared to die for Bran. There is a certain connection between the NK and Bran, but we do not know what it is yet. My guess is something along "complementary".

I expect that there will be some leading figure in the books as well. We are just not far enough there, yet.

Actually we're highly unlikely ever get to a book that reveals such a figure!  But if we did, then I agree there will be some kind of leader of the Others and it's clear the show has taken that on board.  I've little doubt they've called him The Night King because it sounds like a cool name and is a nod to the books.

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4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Great Other is IMO the Lion of Night, another name for the god of Death. And the Others are his servants (TWoIaF). God and demons, they existed even before men were created. The Night's King was an early Lord Commander of the NW. He was probably a Stark. He made an alliance with the Others, who were apparently still around after the LN. He was destroyed. Everything else is D&D wishful thinking.

Speaking of wishfull thinking, how do you prove anything above stated with the published material? It sounds way more fan-fiction then the Night(s) King being still "alive".

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13 hours ago, T and A said:

Speaking of wishfull thinking, how do you prove anything above stated with the published material? It sounds way more fan-fiction then the Night(s) King being still "alive".

The Yi Ti section of TWoIaF has much to consider. It explains why the LN came. And we can even see why it is coming again.

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On 3/10/2019 at 2:54 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

The Yi Ti section of TWoIaF has much to consider. It explains why the LN came. And we can even see why it is coming again.

I have read that book only once, and not completely. Maybe I have missed something.

As far as I know the Lion of Night brought the long night in that version. The Lion of Night was a God in Yi Ti and the father of the first emperor of Yi Ti. After some generations, the descendent of this offspring, the Amethyst Empress was killed by her brother (the bloodstone eperor). This betrayel caused the maiden made of light (the mother of the first emperor) to turn humanity her back and the Lion of the Night punished for that humanity. So that lead to the long night, where at the end a chosen hero managed to defeat the Lion of the Night and his demons brought on earth. Then the pearl emperor build the five forts to keep away the Lion of the Night from ever atacking the realm. 

My deductions from that:

- This is just their version of the long night. Just as the westerosi and other cultures in TWOIAF have them. None of them seem to be superior to the other. 

- Their story does not match with the westerosi story, since it is nowhere stated that those beings were made of ice. We know for sure, that the White Walkers are made of ice. 

- The Nights King is a historical figure in Westeros. His identity is yet to be confirmed (highly likely to be a Stark), but there is no doubt that he was from Westeros and not from Yi Ti. 

- The Long Night was either a global phenomenon, or the Yi Ti and other cultures adopted the story from Westeros. As readers we definitely know that the White Walkers exist in the far north and that the long night had happend in Westeros. But we do not know for sure if the stories of the other cultures are true or just legends. We can conclude from this, that the long night definitively happend in Westeros, and maybe happend in Essos. 

- The Nights King can not possibly be from Essos, since his story is well known in Westeros. Maybe in Essos there was a similar story, but it is not the same.

-GRRM is telling the story from the perspective of Westeros. GoT is telling the story from the perspective of Westeros. It makes no sense to restart the story in the last two books, by introducing Yi Ti. Also, GRRM has told many times, that Yi Ti won't be relevant to ASOIAF. 

-Therefore: The Nights King won't definitively be some guy from Yi Ti. 

 

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2 hours ago, T and A said:

-Therefore: The Nights King won't definitively be some guy from Yi Ti.

I never said the NK was anything more than the 13th LC. IMO he is not directly relevant.

There is a mystery why different cultures and countries know the LN. But each with heroes of their own. I have no idea why.

But it is suggested the Golden Empire of Dawn existed much before any man set foot on Westeros. Some suggest the 5 Forts were built by the Pearl Emperor, far before the LN. Already "to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men"... BTW, "realms of men" same as the NW vows.

I'm not claiming what happen in Yi Ti now is relevant. But the First Men came from Essos before the LN. Maybe it was to flee the troubles that were rising in the east. From the declining GEoD if it was all the men there was then. Anyway, dark arts, torture, and necromancy, slavery, kinslaying was what brought the LN.

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On 3/11/2019 at 9:24 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I never said the NK was anything more than the 13th LC. IMO he is not directly relevant.

There is a mystery why different cultures and countries know the LN. But each with heroes of their own. I have no idea why.

But it is suggested the Golden Empire of Dawn existed much before any man set foot on Westeros. Some suggest the 5 Forts were built by the Pearl Emperor, far before the LN. Already "to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men"... BTW, "realms of men" same as the NW vows.

I'm not claiming what happen in Yi Ti now is relevant. But the First Men came from Essos before the LN. Maybe it was to flee the troubles that were rising in the east. From the declining GEoD if it was all the men there was then. Anyway, dark arts, torture, and necromancy, slavery, kinslaying was what brought the LN.

All true. And I would/could not disprove that conection. But yet, it remaims a question wheather the NK from the show will show up in the books and if it will be the same guy. And I am pretty sure he will.

Why do I believe that? Because the WW need a leader, even just for storytelling reasons. GRRM has stated that the 13th LC from the books is just a legend and unlikely to be still alive. Maybe it won't be the 13th LC, if his words are to be trusted. Then again, in the Show the NK is also not the 13th LC. The NK from the show lived before the 13th LC, since he was created by the CotF and was the first WW, who presumably made the other WW. Maybe in the books it is similar. The first WW was never destroyed and is still their leader. Maybe the 13th LC took bis name (NK) or the Westerosi gave him that name, because they thought he is the new NK. We can't know. 

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On 3/15/2019 at 4:15 PM, T and A said:

All true. And I would/could not disprove that conection. But yet, it remaims a question wheather the NK from the show will show up in the books and if it will be the same guy. And I am pretty sure he will.

Why do I believe that? Because the WW need a leader, even just for storytelling reasons. GRRM has stated that the 13th LC from the books is just a legend and unlikely to be still alive. Maybe it won't be the 13th LC, if his words are to be trusted. Then again, in the Show the NK is also not the 13th LC. The NK from the show lived before the 13th LC, since he was created by the CotF and was the first WW, who presumably made the other WW. Maybe in the books it is similar. The first WW was never destroyed and is still their leader. Maybe the 13th LC took bis name (NK) or the Westerosi gave him that name, because they thought he is the new NK. We can't know. 

I would guess if GRRM introduced this story of a LC seduced by an Ice woman, it should have some purpose in the coming books. I don't think it's just a "filler'. Maybe another Ice woman. Or one normal woman becoming a special wight/WW.

The CotF and the WW live both in the north of Westeros. But not just there. There were WW apparently everywhere during the previous LN. I'm convinced the CotF didn't create them. At least not to fight the First Men invading Westeros.  But I would very much like to know what exactly happened between them.

In the books we have seen very little of WW. There should be spiders, maybe ice dragons (a small book and rumors of sighting by Ibbenese whalers). So they may have a commander, officers, or a king; why not. But I rather think they are all linked to their Great Other, as the wights seem linked to the WWs.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I would guess if GRRM introduced this story of a LC seduced by an Ice woman, it should have some purpose in the coming books. I don't think it's just a "filler'. Maybe another Ice woman. Or one normal woman becoming a special wight/WW.

The CotF and the WW live both in the north of Westeros. But not just there. There were WW apparently everywhere during the previous LN. I'm convinced the CotF didn't create them. At least not to fight the First Men invading Westeros.  But I would very much like to know what exactly happened between them.

In the books we have seen very little of WW. There should be spiders, maybe ice dragons (a small book and rumors of sighting by Ibbenese whalers). So they may have a commander, officers, or a king; why not. But I rather think they are all linked to their Great Other, as the wights seem linked to the WWs.

I think they did.  No way D&D are smart enough to come up with that on their own.

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56 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I think they did.  No way D&D are smart enough to come up with that on their own.

I don't feel smart to have the CotF creating the Others. I feel it rather dumb. The way the show did.

The CotF existed before men. They had their weirwoods, their greenseers, their Old Gods. The Old Gods would be the collective souls of the dead greenseers remaining in the weirwoods. All this before men existed. The Old Gods would be known by men, during Dawn, as the Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of Night. Gods who created the men. Gods whose son, delegate, would be the God-Emperor of the Dawn. The men would then, by some magical or divine intervention, be an evolution from the CotF. Other gods, like the 7 would be pure fantasy or just other names for the old gods. Example the Stranger = TLoN.

The CotF would have been there before anything else. And everything would derive from them. But from a time incredibly far in the past.

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11 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't feel smart to have the CotF creating the Others. I feel it rather dumb. The way the show did.

The CotF existed before men. They had their weirwoods, their greenseers, their Old Gods. The Old Gods would be the collective souls of the dead greenseers remaining in the weirwoods. All this before men existed. The Old Gods would be known by men, during Dawn, as the Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of Night. Gods who created the men. Gods whose son, delegate, would be the God-Emperor of the Dawn. The men would then, by some magical or divine intervention, be an evolution from the CotF. Other gods, like the 7 would be pure fantasy or just other names for the old gods. Example the Stranger = TLoN.

The CotF would have been there before anything else. And everything would derive from them. But from a time incredibly far in the past.

But the CotF were losing badly and were fearful of extinction.  They couldn't stop the first men.  So they needed a game changer.

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10 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

But the CotF were losing badly and were fearful of extinction.  They couldn't stop the first men.  So they needed a game changer.

The Pact of the Isle of Faces was a good deal of centuries before the LN. And there is absolutely no reference (AFAIK) of the Others before the LN. Therefore the Others were not a weapon of the CotF against the First Men.

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1 minute ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Pact of the Isle of Faces was a good deal of centuries before the LN. And there is absolutely no reference (AFAIK) of the Others before the LN. Therefore the Others were not a weapon of the CotF against the First Men.

I still think you are wrong and I stress the word think, where you are stating this as you being 100% factually correct.  GRRM himself has said that the history portrayed is sketchy and often downright incorrect.

The creation of a few Others may have occurred way before the LN.  It may have taken them centuries or millennia to build up the power, skills or strength to become the threat they were.  GRRM has said that the Westeros seasons are unnatural and that will be explained.   It may then have been the Others discovered or created some kind of magic to make this happen and that they directly created the Long Night.

We just don't know, but I am expecting to get their backstory this season unless D&D and GRRM have made some kind of gentleman's pact where D&D will deliberately keep some revelations out of the show so that GRRM's books still hold a semblance of relevance.

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Bran as the NK is IMO a dumb theory and if the story ends with some kind of time travel Bran induced deus ex machina, that will be very disappointing.  That said, it seems probable that there is some leader of the Others that will be revealed in the books that have not been written, whether he's styled the Night King seems fairly irrelevant. I def. think that the Children created the Others though, I agree, the showrunners are not creative enough to have come up with that on their own.  That too is from the books that have not been written.

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