Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 4 hours ago, DMC said: You're right, if I thought my sister was under the control of reputable monsters that killed my mother and brother, I wouldn't have done anything either. Because that's what's honorable. You're not the lord commander of the Night's Watch. A man in such a position has bigger responsibilities than to run off and take care of a sister. That's harsh to hear but it's reality. Not every person is cut out for command and Jon clearly is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: You're not the lord commander of the Night's Watch. A man in such a position has bigger responsibilities than to run off and take care of a sister. That's harsh to hear but it's reality. Not every person is cut out for command and Jon clearly is not. Yeah, this would be compelling if it wasn't just entirely without empirical merit and ethically flippant. Name me a leader that wouldn't at least make an effort to save one of the people he loves most that's within his grasp, regardless of vows. It's not a realistic expectation. And frankly I'd judge him more for not doing something when he was presented with the opportunity to do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 A sheep farmer who placed his sister above that of the greater good can be forgiven. A man who was in a position of leadership and entrusted with the defense of something like the wall has no excuse to make the kind of choice that Jon did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, DMC said: Yeah, this would be compelling if it wasn't just entirely without empirical merit and ethically flippant. Name me a leader that wouldn't at least make an effort to save one of the people he loves most that's within his grasp, regardless of vows. It's not a realistic expectation. And frankly I'd judge him more for not doing something when he was presented with the opportunity to do something. Let us open a Bottle O' Rum and talk bout it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: Let us open a Bottle O' Rum and talk bout it. I got shitty whisky and gin, and the bottle's already been opened, but: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, Great Oshiro said: A sheep farmer who placed his sister above that of the greater good can be forgiven. A man who was in a position of leadership and entrusted with the defense of something like the wall has no excuse to make the kind of choice that Jon did. John is John's problem. Humans are the problem. There's only one way for him to be safe, that's to be alone. "And what kind of life is that?" John's life..someday. (Sarah Connor Chronicles, "Today Is The Day Part I.") The contention Jon didn't fulfill his "duties" is just a mechanism for people to shit on Jon. Yeah, he's not a robot. How bout Mormont's decision-making? Why did he only risk the core of the NW's strength after he got attacked? Sounds like a very human reaction that was tactically a mistake, and pretty clearly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, DMC said: I got shitty whisky and gin, and the bottle's already been opened, but: No, no shitty whisky or gin. Ya gonna have to provide Glenlievt since another poster has to provide Glenfiddich. After you using words like --- empirical merit and ethically flippant --- I am gonna need a dram or two or three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: After you using words like --- empirical merit and ethically flippant --- I am gonna need a dram or two or three. Fair enough. I got a couple shots left of Johnny Black, that's the best I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Not that I believe for a second that it’s gonna make any difference, but for those who want quotes, here you go. You’re welcome. “But Martin's feelings on this issue clearly go deeper than that; he's been exploring similar ideas in his fiction for years. (Spoilers ahead!) One of the major debates Jon Snow faces in A Dance With Dragons -- and on Season 5 of HBO's hit show -- is whether to allow the Wildlings into Westeros. As Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he favors letting them through and allowing them to settle in The Gift, a sparsely populated region directly south of the Wall that's owned by the Night's Watch. But many of his Night's Watch brothers strongly disagree, arguing that the Wildlings are too dangerous and unpredictable to live in the Seven Kingdoms. Because there's a big border fence involved, this plot line -- which goes badly for Snow -- has sometimes been related to the debate around Mexican immigrants. But the refugee crisis is actually a closer parallel. The Wildlings' desire to move south, unlike Mexican immigrants' desire to move north, isn't really motivated by economics. They want to escape the White Walkers, just as Syrian refugees want to escape ISIS. And the objections of Ser Alliser Thorne and his cronies are, likewise, more about security concerns than about economics. Almost no one lives in The Gift, which is pretty barren to begin with. To be sure, the two situations are different in plenty of ways. The Seven Kingdoms never purports to be welcoming to immigrants, for example. Still, Jon Snow's most persuasive argument in favor of granting amnesty to the Wildlings could also be helpful in the real world. He argues that letting the Wildlings go south of the Wall could actually make the people of Westeros safer by reducing the number of people available for the White Walkers to turn into ice zombies Wights. By the same token, letting more Syrian refugees emigrate to the United States could prevent some of them from being tempted to aid ISIS. The point that Trump and Ser Thorne are missing, but that Martin and Snow express so eloquently, is that the refugees aren't the real enemies. The real enemies are the merciless forces that the refugees are fleeing. ————————————————————————————————————— He won’t go so far as to relate the events in his books to today’s politics, but he hopes that Westeros offers us lessons, including the ways that power can corrupt. “Maybe some kid who is reading it now…will be a president or senator, and the lessons of Westeros will have been incorporated into his worldview and affect some decision he makes 20 or 30 years from now.” Then he pauses to think. “It depends on who he models himself on, Jon Snow or a new Joffrey,” citing a noble hero and a sadistic boy king. “We don’t need anyone modeling themselves after Joffrey.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 35 minutes ago, DMC said: John is John's problem. Humans are the problem. There's only one way for him to be safe, that's to be alone. "And what kind of life is that?" John's life..someday. (Sarah Connor Chronicles, "Today Is The Day Part I.") The contention Jon didn't fulfill his "duties" is just a mechanism for people to shit on Jon. Yeah, he's not a robot. How bout Mormont's decision-making? Why did he only risk the core of the NW's strength after he got attacked? Sounds like a very human reaction that was tactically a mistake, and pretty clearly so. It is more than fair and actually quite appropriate to criticize Jon. That was the intention of the author. He carefully laid out Jon's descent into unreasonability and what happened was a logical consequence. Many of Jeor Mormont's decisions are questionable too. Too many to list here but the great ranging was a bad move. His decisions to overlook Jon's misbehaviors at the wall, for one, are highly suspect and bad decisions in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 54 minutes ago, Great Oshiro said: He carefully laid out Jon's descent into unreasonability No. The author literally did the opposite - he repeatedly went out of his way to explicate why Jon was the only one in the room with half a brain, let alone "reasonable." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, DMC said: No. The author literally did the opposite - he repeatedly went out of his way to explicate why Jon was the only one in the room with half a brain, let alone "reasonable." I did say the quotes from Martin himself saying, “Maybe some kid who is reading it now…will be a president or senator, and the lessons of Westeros will have been incorporated into his worldview and affect some decision he makes 20 or 30 years from now.” Then he pauses to think. “It depends on who he models himself on, Jon Snow or a new Joffrey” wouldn’t do any good, didn’t I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: I did say the quotes from Martin himself saying, “Maybe some kid who is reading it now…will be a president or senator, and the lessons of Westeros will have been incorporated into his worldview and affect some decision he makes 20 or 30 years from now.” Then he pauses to think. “It depends on who he models himself on, Jon Snow or a new Joffrey” wouldn’t do any good, didn’t I? Weeeeeeeel now I am totally confudicated. @DMChangs out in various forums on this site. You @kissdbyfirelike to toggle between show and book. Since I am stupid and cynical and suspicious would you be so kind as to share the origin of your quote or are you merely being factitious, trying to impress or be comical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said: Weeeeeeeel now I am totally confudicated. @DMChangs out in various forums on this site. You @kissdbyfirelike to toggle between show and book. Since I am stupid and cynical and suspicious would you be so kind as to share the origin of your quote or are you merely being factitious, trying to impress or be comical? Not being cheeky at all. Those are the words George Raymond Richard Martin said on November 2018, to the Wall Street Journal. https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-assures-fans-writing-is-coming-1542390476?mod=hp_lead_pos10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Not being cheeky at all. Those are the words George Raymond Richard Martin said on November 2018, to the Wall Street Journal. https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-assures-fans-writing-is-coming-1542390476?mod=hp_lead_pos10 George R.R. Martin is in hiding. He’s talking to me from a remote mountain hideaway whose location he refuses to disclose. It’s a cabin he visits when he wants to hunker down to finish a book—and he’s hard at work on “The Winds of Winter,” the long-awaited sixth installment in “A Song of Ice and Fire,” the fantasy series that spawned HBO’s hugely popular “Game of Thrones.” He has a different book coming out later this month—not yet that highly anticipated sixth volume, to many fans’ dismay. Instead, he’s going back in time... To Read the Full Story Subscribe Sign In Sorry, I didn't subscribe so I couldn't read the full story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: George R.R. Martin is in hiding. He’s talking to me from a remote mountain hideaway whose location he refuses to disclose. It’s a cabin he visits when he wants to hunker down to finish a book—and he’s hard at work on “The Winds of Winter,” the long-awaited sixth installment in “A Song of Ice and Fire,” the fantasy series that spawned HBO’s hugely popular “Game of Thrones.” He has a different book coming out later this month—not yet that highly anticipated sixth volume, to many fans’ dismay. Instead, he’s going back in time... To Read the Full Story Subscribe Sign In Sorry, I didn't subscribe so I couldn't read the full story. When @Daendrew started a thread about it, I clicked on the link he provided in the OP and was able to read the whole article. I copied and saved the last paragraph because I was dead certain I would be posting it a lot in the future, as I just did now. When I try the link now I get the same you got. I’m not a subscriber, so not much I can do about it, Here’s a link to the thread I mentioned: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152587-wsj-grrm-writes-seven-days-a-week-six-during-football-season/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: When @Daendrew started a thread about it, I clicked on the link he provided in the OP and was able to read the whole article. I copied and saved the last paragraph because I was dead certain I would be posting it a lot in the future, as I just did now. When I try the link now I get the same you got. I’m not a subscriber, so not much I can do about it, Here’s a link to the thread I mentioned: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152587-wsj-grrm-writes-seven-days-a-week-six-during-football-season/ None of it has nottin' tod do with the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: None of it has nottin' tod do with the topic. You asked, I answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 On 3/20/2019 at 7:59 PM, Rose of Red Lake said: Or worse, to get out of his Night's Watch vows. Which is a cop-out. I want him to break more oaths. I think Jon stays on the Wall, unless the Wall falls, in which case, I think he contiues to fight the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said: @DMChangs out in various forums on this site. I do. Is that a bad thing? Good thing? Honestly curious. I will say I spent my first four years here pretty much exclusively on the books and show forums, and primarily the former. It was only when someone got elected that I started frequenting the bottom of the forum, and things branched out from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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