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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXXIV: Winterfell Is Yours, Your Grace

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3 minutes ago, Risto said:

Pardon me, but aren't his decisions been for a good eyeroll? He has been warned about Cersei and he went straight to King's Landing and trusted Cersei. He is fully aware of the history North has with Targaryens and Lannisters and he made alliance with the subtlety of an elephant in a china shop. The man don't trust them, the people are abandoning them... Sansa has a point here.

Why is she always undermining him and eye rolling him in public?  That isn't very supportive 'pack' behavior?  But, yes, he's definitely too stupid and too noble to live, no doubt about it.

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4 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

So you don't think there is tension between Jon and Sansa?  Then why did Jon bring it up to Arya and then to Sansa herself?  It's not exactly subtle.

Tension doesn't equal betrayal though. It just equals tension and conflicting ideas. It's not a bad or evil thing in it's own right. 

The entire North is feeling tension re: Jon's decision right now. I don't think it's that out of place for Sansa to be feeling tension too.

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6 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

So you don't think there is tension between Jon and Sansa?  Then why did Jon bring it up to Arya and then to Sansa herself?  It's not exactly subtle.

I agree on the food shortages if winter was 3 months.  Presumably provisions have been set aside for 5 years+.  That's a lot of provisions, especially when the Wall has been breached and conflict would be starting in a matter of weeks/months, not years.

Days, according to the preview of the upcoming episode. 

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Just now, Risto said:

5 years? That is rich for the region that survived the war and was fighting until couple of months ago,.. In Season 7 we have heard that Sansa has the food for one year. Now she has what, 10 times more people to feed... Do the math. They are in a very precarious situation regarding the food and it was normal for Sansa to raise that question.

There is a tension and that is to be expected. Jon left for south, returns after months with foreign army, giving up his crown for a woman whose father practically hurt each of those houses. We now have heard that Glovers abandoned and Sansa has been afraid of what bannermen will do if they found out she wrote a letter to Robb when she was 11? And what Jon did was far graver in terms of Northern PR politics.

There was tension long before that.

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Sansa just needs to die.  She should be grateful for the help.  Whatever.  I don't like Sansa.  

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Just now, Error-504 said:

And if Dany went back south, the food situation would be resolved, but it wouldn't matter because they would all be dead anyways...............

so explain your point again? 

Dany doesn't have the option of going south, because she has to defend them. Defending North means also defend herself. And she did that only on her own terms. Emotions here are quite understandable. It is like people want all of them to fall and make peace. What did people expect, soap opera with Sansa and Dany make each other's braids? Come on...

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1 minute ago, Risto said:

Dany doesn't have the option of going south, because she has to defend them. Defending North means also defend herself. And she did that only on her own terms. Emotions here are quite understandable. It is like people want all of them to fall and make peace. What did people expect, soap opera with Sansa and Dany make each other's braids? Come on...

What show are you watching? Certainly not GOT. Dany had no strings attached to her offer of help. And why could'nt she go south, she doesn't have to do jack squat. 

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why is she always undermining him and eye rolling him in public?  That isn't very supportive 'pack' behavior?  But, yes, he's definitely too stupid and too noble to live, no doubt about it.

If you want to claim that trusting Cersei was a smart thing, let me inform you that we know she is betraying Starks and Targaryens. If you want to claim that Jon's decision to bring Dany will not be without costs, we already heard of Glover returning to his castle. So, yes, Jon made some idiotic mistakes.

Just now, Error-504 said:

What show are you watching? Certainly not GOT. Dany had no strings attached to her offer of help. And why could'nt she go south, she doesn't have to do jack squat. 

So, she doesn't expect everyone to bend the knee and accept her as a Queen? That didn't happen in this episode? Is that what you are saying?

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Just wanna put this out there but....Lyanna Mormont literally undermined and insulted Jon after he got back in front of all the Northern Lords--if fact she does that kind of thing pretty often--but no one is ranting about her being a traitor or expecting betrayal or anything. Most people are like "Go Lyanna!"

So I'm very confused as to why she can do that but if Sansa does the same thing it's suddenly a terrible issue.

 

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1 minute ago, Risto said:

If you want to claim that trusting Cersei was a smart thing, let me inform you that we know she is betraying Starks and Targaryens. If you want to claim that Jon's decision to bring Dany will not be without costs, we already heard of Glover returning to his castle. So, yes, Jon made some idiotic mistakes.

So, she doesn't expect everyone to bend the knee and accept her as a Queen? That didn't happen in this episode? Is that what you are saying?

Trusting Cersei is the collective mistake of Tyrion, Dany and Jon.  But, Tyrion is mostly to blame, because of anyone, he should know better. 

But, the reason for Sansa's eye rolling and public complaining isnt' Cersei but Dany.  And, Jon has a strong point, that he left to get allies and came back with allies that they will need to survive.

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Just now, Pandean said:

Just wanna put this out there but....Lyanna Mormont literally undermined and insulted Jon after he got back in front of all the Northern Lords--if fact she does that kind of thing pretty often--but no one is ranting about her being a traitor or expecting betrayal or anything. Most people are like "Go Lyanna!"

So I'm very confused as to why she can do that but if Sansa does the same thing it's suddenly a terrible issue.

 

Sansa even did less than that. She only questioned their masterplan and raised the issue of feeding 2 dragons and 100 000 men, something the North hasn't been prepared for. 

Not to mention telling Tyrion he was a fool to trust Cersei (she was right) and seeing that Dany's arrival didn't go smooth with Northerners. 

She noticed the most obvious things in this episode and people are still "Sansa the bitch"... LOL.

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1 minute ago, Risto said:

If you want to claim that trusting Cersei was a smart thing, let me inform you that we know she is betraying Starks and Targaryens. If you want to claim that Jon's decision to bring Dany will not be without costs, we already heard of Glover returning to his castle. So, yes, Jon made some idiotic mistakes.

So, she doesn't expect everyone to bend the knee and accept her as a Queen? That didn't happen in this episode? Is that what you are saying?

Oh boy, glover took his men home......yeah those 1,000 men are way more important than the two dragons and 100,000 men Dany brought into the fold.

I didn't see one request made by Dany for anyone to bend the knee. Did you? What I an saying is, Dany offered her help without requiring Jon to bend the knee. Jon took it upon himself to do so. so, yeah, maybe Jon's act of bending the knee, raised Dany's expectations of what to expect from the North, perfectly understandable. 

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25 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I thought that was a bit daft to be honest.  Only those that are dumb enough to think the dead will lay siege to Winterfell for an entire Winter (which in Westeros can last years).

It's pretty obvious that a big battle is going to occur well before food shortages.  If the living lose, it doesn't matter anyway.  If the living win then they don't have to all be camped out in Winterfell anymore anyway.

It's all setting the scene for when Sansa turns on Jon/Dany.  When Sansa finds out Jon isn't even her half brother I am pretty sure her faux faith in him (yeah right Sansa, we believed that!) will turn into outright hostility and she'll be very keen on becoming Queen of the North.

Exactly. I agree 100% of everything you said. It does not matter the fight will be quick and winner gets the spoils. On the title’s situation it doesn’t matter and Sansa once again does it see the big picture

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6 minutes ago, Risto said:

She noticed the most obvious things in this episode and people are still "Sansa the bitch"... LOL.

I wouldn't call Sansa that though I do wonder if Septa Mordane would be pleased to see her courtesies in this episode. :P

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15 minutes ago, U. B. Cool said:

Sansa just needs to die.  She should be grateful for the help.  Whatever.  I don't like Sansa.  

Nah, I think your favorite character should die.  Happy now?

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Trusting Cersei is the collective mistake of Tyrion, Dany and Jon.  But, Tyrion is mostly to blame, because of anyone, he should know better. 

But, the reason for Sansa's eye rolling and public complaining isnt' Cersei but Dany.  And, Jon has a strong point, that he left to get allies and came back with allies that they will need to survive.

And Jon made a mistake again. He did the same with wildlings. He disregarded the emotions, the history people had and that eventually backfired. And he did that because he fell in love. He wasn't even able to respond on that. Because, as much as he wants to protect the North, he can't negate that he is in love with Dany and that clouded his judgement regarding bringing her to WF in such fashion.

4 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Oh boy, glover took his men home......yeah those 1,000 men are way more important than the two dragons and 100,000 men Dany brought into the fold.

I didn't see one request made by Dany for anyone to bend the knee. Did you? What I an saying is, Dany offered her help without requiring Jon to bend the knee. Jon took it upon himself to do so. so, yeah, maybe Jon's act of bending the knee, raised Dany's expectations of what to expect from the North, perfectly understandable. 

In this war, 1000 men can easily be turned against them. Everyone who is not fighting for them, can fight against them. Dany most certainly expects the obedience and her conversation with Jon in this episode proves that. Unless you want to claim that Dany is OK with North not seeing her as their Queen. 

5 minutes ago, TheMachine said:

Exactly. I agree 100% of everything you said. It does not matter the fight will be quick and winner gets the spoils. On the title’s situation it doesn’t matter and Sansa once again does it see the big picture

This is only because this is a TV show bound by the rules. The last War for Dawn lasted a generation. We expected this one to be one battle because we only have 5 episodes until the end.

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I tought that the whole "Jon snow the white wolf" king in the north was a bit rushed and created more problems than anything, i don't believe that with Bran there, even if he didn't wanted, the northen lords would chose a Bastard to rule them, no matther how honorable or accomplished he might be, so quickly, and the way that Jon snow pretty much tossed the crown right into the garbage can is a tastement for that, that title and nomination had no weight.

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1 minute ago, BlueNightzx said:

I tought that the whole "Jon snow the white wolf" king in the north was a bit rushed and created more problems than anything, i don't believe that with Bran there, even if he didn't wanted, the northen lords would chose a Bastard to rule them, no matther how honorable or accomplished he might be, so quickly, and the way that Jon snow pretty much tossed the crown right into the garbage can is a tastement for that, that title and nomination had no weight.

EVEN Robb knew that, once crowned, he could not have relinquished the crown so easily. 

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12 minutes ago, Risto said:

Sansa even did less than that. She only questioned their masterplan and raised the issue of feeding 2 dragons and 100 000 men, something the North hasn't been prepared for. 

Not to mention telling Tyrion he was a fool to trust Cersei (she was right) and seeing that Dany's arrival didn't go smooth with Northerners. 

She noticed the most obvious things in this episode and people are still "Sansa the bitch"... LOL.

All of this. So much. 

Like I seriously don't see what people keep getting pissed about and while I love Sansa, I am perfectly willing to call her out on shitty behavior. Just like I am Arya, whom I also love. 

Sansa's not doing anything that anyone else isn't doing but somehow when it's her it's worse.

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6 minutes ago, Trebla said:

I wouldn't call Sansa that though I do wonder if Septa Mordane would be pleased to see her courtesies in this episode. :P

I think Septa Mordane would be horrified about Sansa and Arya in general.

Not so much the perfect husband-obeying dutiful ladies anymore.

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