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UK Politics: Awaiting MV3

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 3:18 AM, Heartofice said:

Well from what you are saying it seems you genuinely believe this is what he has done. So he wants to sabotage his career and life for the sake of a weak twitter joke? 

 

So someone is dumb, or reckless enough to do/say something bigoted on the internet? Absurd! No public figure has never intentionally done any thing that might hurt their career or fail to see the actual consequences for their words. Sarcasm.

You keep using this defense when someone is found to do something inarguably bigoted  and disgusting-that they couldn’t have meant to be egregiously bigoted, because they might face some consequences for it.

 

On 5/10/2019 at 4:03 AM, Heartofice said:

I agree there are degrees and the punishment should fit the crime. An honest mistake, where someone has inadvertently said or done something that could be taken in a way other than intended should be treated with an appropriate punishment. 

I don’t think we are there as a society however , the urge to take everything in the worst possible faith and to delight in the destruction of others is strong.

And this again. “Let’s Assume the person’s blatantly bigoted  action isn’t really bigoted  and act befuddled when people think x action is bigoted” You appear to simply not want any expressed jokes to ever bear any significant possible negative drawbacks.

Its’ so draconian for the multi-millionaire Rosane to not be continuously employed at a network and *gasp* actually looked at as a bad person for saying a black person was half a chimp. Words actually having consequences is so unfair. People should be able to say whatever racist/homophobic/sexist/ things they want free of any worry that people will in any way respond negatively to them.

Why can’t people just assume Baker didn’t mean anything racist when he did something racist? 

Gosh, I haven’t been this upset since Mel Gibson was called an anti-Semite for his anti-Semitic comments.

Seriously though it sounds as if to you the only thing a person needs to do not be justifiably called a bigot for their bigoted words is to simply say they did not intend to be bigoted.  And think saying extremely racist/sexist/homophobic things in public isn’t ever good enough grounds for people to disassociate with someone or not to be associated with someone.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 12:03 PM, Heartofice said:

An honest mistake, where someone has inadvertently said or done something that could be taken in a way other than intended should be treated with an appropriate punishment.

I'd have more sympathy for this position if Baker's primary defence strategy (claiming that this is something he does all the time) didn't appear to be absolute horseshit.

 

Edited by Spockydog

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Posted (edited)

 

What an epic twunt.

Edited by Spockydog

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32 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think they were expecting much bigger numbers of MP's to leave Labour.  But, in any case, the Lib Dems have now cornered the market as the anti-Brexit party.

By contrast, Farage has got everything right.

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Feels surreal we are debating who will be in the Euro parliament when we should be leaving. Surely it’s all irrelevant anyway or is there now just a general acceptance that Brexit is over?

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4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Feels surreal we are debating who will be in the Euro parliament when we should be leaving. Surely it’s all irrelevant anyway or is there now just a general acceptance that Brexit is over?

Really? Finally come to your senses? 

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16 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think they were expecting much bigger numbers of MP's to leave Labour.  But, in any case, the Lib Dems have now cornered the market as the anti-Brexit party.

By contrast, Farage has got everything right.

The above interview kind of sums it up. Those who dislike him will just dislike him more, his supporters will watch that interview and get riled up at the BBC. As said above, they just want to leave, the point isn’t to be in the EU parliament at all. Treating the vote like it isn’t going to be some enormous two fingers up at the government is missing the point.

10 hours ago, maarsen said:

Really? Finally come to your senses? 

Not sure what you mean. I’ve always suspected that Brexit wouldn’t happen, and it seems that’s closer to the truth now than ever.

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Apparently the Tories are looking at 10% of the vote in London. She will survive that I'm sure, shes like a cockroach. 

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It kind of says something, though, that six weeks on from supposed-Brexit day, six weeks into the extension, after six weeks of talks between the two main parties, we're all focused on the usual horse races. Who will 'win' the European elections? When will May resign? Who will replace her?

Whatever happened to - y'know - how the hell do we get out of this mess?

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14 minutes ago, mormont said:

It kind of says something, though, that six weeks on from supposed-Brexit day, six weeks into the extension, after six weeks of talks between the two main parties, we're all focused on the usual horse races. Who will 'win' the European elections? When will May resign? Who will replace her?

Whatever happened to - y'know - how the hell do we get out of this mess?

Constructive thinking, where's the fun in that?

On a more serious note, during the campaign season, of course the focus is not working politics, but on campaigning. I know that argument falls apart, when you look at the Tories, who are not really campaigning on this election (presumably the reasoning being, we're getting  battered anyway, this way we can at least claim it down to us not being bothered - very constructive). But anyway, your highlighting a problem for both the British political class, and for the media's obsession.

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On 5/13/2019 at 12:24 AM, Spockydog said:

 

What an epic twunt.

Is health insurance not a thing in the UK? It sounds like Farage wants (or is claiming to want) a robust NHS but also for people to be able to choose health insurance and not use the NHS. So that makes it sound like the UK has only public health or out of pocket private health.

There is an argument to be made that having a health insurance market tends to erode the public health service and lead to progressive govts under funding it, because the people who vote normally have enough income to be able to afford have the insurance option, and will therefore tend to vote for lower taxes than increased public health funding, even though a lot of that lowered tax end up as health insurance premiums.

A robust public health system does help to keep insurance premiums down. So in theory a well funded public health system can co-exist with a health insurance market. But there does have to be long term commitment to a well funded public health system across all political parties, otherwise funding will erode over time and end up with a broken public health system, which is therefore no check on insurance premiums. 

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13 hours ago, mormont said:

Whatever happened to - y'know - how the hell do we get out of this mess?

I think we might be further away from getting out of this mess than ever. With Starmer suggesting that Labour will only accept a deal that has a 'confirmatory vote' attached and May roundly poo-pooing that idea, with the Brexit parties success suggesting the country is still just as split as ever. 

I think we are closer to a no deal or no brexit than anything in between. The can feels like its still being kicked down the road.

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9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Is health insurance not a thing in the UK? It sounds like Farage wants (or is claiming to want) a robust NHS but also for people to be able to choose health insurance and not use the NHS. So that makes it sound like the UK has only public health or out of pocket private health.

There is an argument to be made that having a health insurance market tends to erode the public health service and lead to progressive govts under funding it, because the people who vote normally have enough income to be able to afford have the insurance option, and will therefore tend to vote for lower taxes than increased public health funding, even though a lot of that lowered tax end up as health insurance premiums.

A robust public health system does help to keep insurance premiums down. So in theory a well funded public health system can co-exist with a health insurance market. But there does have to be long term commitment to a well funded public health system across all political parties, otherwise funding will erode over time and end up with a broken public health system, which is therefore no check on insurance premiums. 

Yeah, no. There are already plenty of private health insurance options for UK consumers. Farage has had a hard-on about privatizing the NHS for years. He wants the American model. Which, I think we can all agree on, is just about the worst option possible for UK residents.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, no. There are already plenty of private health insurance options for UK consumers. Farage has had a hard-on about privatizing the NHS for years. He wants the American model. Which, I think we can all agree on, is just about the worst option possible for UK residents.

 

 

Our NHS is built on the premise of No Top up Fees.  

 

You can have private health insurance - a lot of types just give money for your hospital stays or illnesses and prescription costs.

You can also buy instances that will give you hospital treatments.

The big catch is if you are treated for something privately (so you can jump the queue) you can't then get NHS treatment for that exact same condition.  Its a feature of its design so we don't create a 2 tier system and everyone gets the same level of care.

 

Farage on the other hand wants a privatised system because its a lot easier to exploit people and make lots of money from a US style system and he is positioned in such a way to take advantage.

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3 minutes ago, Pebble said:

Farage on the other hand wants a privatised system because its a lot easier to exploit people and make lots of money from a US style system and he is positioned in such a way to take advantage.

You basically devalued everything you previously said with this.

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You basically devalued everything you previously said with this.

Really?

 

The first part was an explanation of the type of healthcare we do currently have in the UK.  The no top up fees is a way protect us from a US style system. where people don't get treated because they have no money or go bankrupt.

Farage want the a US style system because he can make money from it, which he can't do from a UK NHS.

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1 minute ago, Pebble said:

Really?

 

The first part was an explanation of the type of healthcare we do currently have in the UK.  The no top up fees is a way protect us from a US style system. where people don't get treated because they have no money or go bankrupt.

Farage want the a US style system because he can make money from it, which he can't do from a UK NHS.

Yes the first part seemed like a measured critique of the UK healthcare system..

Then.. BOOM, crackpot theory about Farage ruins everything.

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yes the first part seemed like a measured critique of the UK healthcare system..

Then.. BOOM, crackpot theory about Farage ruins everything.

You read Pebble’s first statement as a critique of the system?

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