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5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Plenty of people have attempted such justifications.  I don’t believe anyone has ever succeeded.

Many of such conquerors were given sainthood later by the Church.

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On 5/14/2019 at 1:03 PM, Deminelle said:

We can't be sure that bells rang on Cersei's orders. We don't see it.

Watching the scene again I'm almost certain that they are trying to portray Dany as mad. Yet there's a small chance that Dany saw the bell ringer. If by that she could deduce, that it wasn't Cersei who gave the order, then she might have attacked because technically Cersei didn't surrender.

It's not clear how far the bell tower is from Dany. 

Dany has no way to know who gave the order, nor is that even relevant. What she does know is that all anti-dragon defenses have been wiped out, and the Lannister forces have laid down their weapons in surrender. That was the time to have her ground forces begin processing the Lannister prisoners, and go ahead and make her way to the Red Keep and capture Cersei. She chose instead to deliberately target smallfolk. There is no grey area.

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13 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The fact that the bells were even supposed to miraculously mean surrender (it is established show canon that the bells have never meant surrender and not a single resident in the city knows that the ringing of the bells meant that the coast is clear and that everything is okay) is all Tyrion.

And Tyrion was trying to orchestrate a false, inauthentic surrender so that Cersei can be smuggled out of the city and no civilians will have to die (impossible with the city full of both enemy combatants and civilians).

Nonsense. The show explicitly portrayed various smallfolk yelling for the queen to ring the bells in hopes it would spare them. Regardless of what it has meant on other occasions, it is explicitly clear that everybody understood that it meant surrender in this case. And had Dany flown straight to the Red Keep after securing the surrender of the Lannister forces, she almost certainly would have arrived before Jaime had a chance to. That's actually another thing that is inexplicable about her choosing to chase smallfolk rather than go straight to the person she is supposedly trying to defeat. Cersei had all the time in the world to escape because of how Dany did things. That she wasn't able to was because she inexplicably continued standing at the window for the whole time. The entire thing was just poor writing.

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1 hour ago, Samsaptakas said:

Many of such conquerors were given sainthood later by the Church.

Because, of course, the Church isn’t made up of folks as fallen as the rest of us?

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8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

For the record that doesn’t in any way justify her slaughter of non-combatants or surrendering troops.

 

No, it doesn't matter whether Dany planned the slaughter as a military/policy move or unleashed it out of frustration and confusion, she is guilty.  I do wish that the writers had provided more hints that she was heading for a breakdown, i.e. was it building up for years or a sudden rage caused by the events of the last few months...

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9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Because (in her eyes) they are rebels and traitors, who deserve no mercy.  No mercy is what they get.  They were granted a chance to surrender, and they responded by beheading her best friend.  Dany is not making a distinction between Cersei, Lannister soldiers, and civilians. They all deserve death.

That is horrifying to us, but exactly the attitude that many commanders have taken in the past.

During these discussions, the point has often been made that foreign conquerors might act this way, but not a ruler to her own people.  But rulers have frequently behaved savagely towards rebel cities - "Kill them all, for the Lord will recognise his own."

 

 


Daenerys seems to have forgotten, or not understood in the first place, that it was not the civilians of King's Landing who murdered Missandei - she was killed on Cersei's order by Cersei's undead lackey; attended by Cersei's Hand.  The civilians of King's Landing had no clue who Missandei was; it's not as if Cersei let any people's representatives in on her decisions.  

And a would-be ruler who makes no distinction between the regime she is trying to overthrow and the civilians she hopes to rule, and does not even try to spare at least some of those civilians, should not be ruling anyone/anywhere.  The fact that many commanders and conquerors have done so in the past of our own world does not make it right.

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5 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

No, it doesn't matter whether Dany planned the slaughter as a military/policy move or unleashed it out of frustration and confusion, she is guilty.  I do wish that the writers had provided more hints that she was heading for a breakdown, i.e. was it building up for years or a sudden rage caused by the events of the last few months...

I believe she planned the slaughter as retribution against Cersi and the belief that Cersi would never actually surrender anyhow.  When she agreed to Tyrion to stop if she heard the bells ring, she did so only because she thought it would never happen.  

When the bells actually did ring, she had a choice to make, continue with the plan to ensure HER rise to the throne, or abandon it and allow Jon to rule.  We the viewers, and Jon and Tyrion and everyone who knew Dany well, should have known that she would choose the throne.  She made it crystal clear.  Varys saw it, tried to explain it to Tyrion and Jon and the viewers, and we all ignored it because we wanted to believe in her doing the right thing, even though her solution has always been the Targaryan one, burn everything and then make changes from the ashes.

 

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Posted (edited)

 

How exactly would Daenerys deciding not to massacre most of the people of King's Landing (and destroying the city) allow Jon to rule?  What was stopping Daenerys from destroying the Red Keep/Maegor's and therefore killing Cersei and then claiming the throne?  Or was she trying to torch Jon and his Northmen and decided to also torch tens of thousands of people while she was at it?  It makes little sense as a political or military maneuver.  

Edited by Raksha 2014

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

No, it doesn't matter whether Dany planned the slaughter as a military/policy move or unleashed it out of frustration and confusion, she is guilty.  I do wish that the writers had provided more hints that she was heading for a breakdown, i.e. was it building up for years or a sudden rage caused by the events of the last few months...

I have never been a huge Dany fan. But, I'm surprised how this turned out. I even feel bad for Dany fans. At least the ones that acknowledge the evilness of her actions.

People invested in this character for 8 years, to have the rug pulled out from under them like that? That was pretty shitty.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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19 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I have never been a huge Dany fan. But, I'm surprised how this turned out. I even feel bad for Dany fans. At least the ones that acknowledge the evilness of her actions.

People invested in this character for 8 years, to have the rug pulled out from under them like that? That was pretty shitty.

I've said elsewhere that I regard the series as a curate's egg from Season 5 onwards, a mix of good and bad.  IMHO, this was good, excellent, even.

I enjoy Dany as a character, both in the books and show.  But, I've always considered her to be a dark Messiah or spoiled Saint.  So, this is pretty much where I expected her to end up.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I enjoy Dany as a character, both in the books and show.  But, I've always considered her to be a dark Messiah or spoiled Saint.  So, this is pretty much where I expected her to end up.

I expected that she would become darker and more ruthless in order to pursue the IT. But, I didn't expect her to go this far. And though, I have often been critical of her past actions, I'm still taken aback by her actions in the last episode. I did not expect it.

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Now, couple of days later, I kinda like the badass Dany. She hasn't found someone to equally match with. Jon turned out to be a coward, too. From her pov. She lost two dragons, two of her children because she chose to help Westeros. Everyone (Tyrion) has told her to keep calm and negotiate with Cersei instead.

She could actually burn the Winterfell as well while she's at it.

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44 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

How exactly would Daenerys deciding not to massacre most of the people of King's Landing (and destroying the city) allow Jon to rule?  What was stopping Daenerys from destroying the Red Keep/Maegor's and therefore killing Cersei and then claiming the throne?  Or was she trying to torch Jon and his Northmen and decided to also torch tens of thousands of people while she was at it?  It makes little sense as a political or military maneuver.  

Without the fear instilled in the seven kingdoms of what defiance of her rule means, the other nobel houses would be much more willing to push Jon's claim.  Now it doesn't matter that he's the "rightful" heir, it only matters that they know their kingdoms will be burned to the ground if they move against her.  That's the stick.

But the move also comes with a huge carrot.  Without the million mouths of KL to feed, the other nobel houses will be able to better feed their people during a winter that wasn't properly prepared for because of the war.  Sure, they may grumble about the dragon queen, but when they aren't facing peasant or lessor nobel revolts, they will all secretly thank her for burning it down.  So when the official reports coming out all say that Cersi never surrendered and forced the rightful Queen to use extreme measures, well, they might not exactly believe it in private, but it will be better for all to propel that rewriting of history forward in public.

Not to say any of this makes what Dany did right or good, only that it makes logical sense and shows her understanding of how the game is played in Westeros.  

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GOT Dany isn't a badass, she is a cowardly mass murderer of children. Pretty much everyone alive at this point has experienced loss no less traumatic than Dany has. Arya and Sansa watched their father get murdered. Their mother and elder brother were murdered, and they spent the last few seasons believing the rest of their family was murdered. Jon himself was straight up murdered.

All the characters have faced trauma, and not become murderers of children. Jaime started out as someone willing to murder a children to keep his secrets. That didn't make him a badass, it made him a scumbag. GOT Dany was just turned into a piece of shit murdering innocents for no reason because of the shitty writing of D and D.

They could have given her gradually more and more reason to distrust her closest confidants over the course of multiple episodes, and had her charge, sentence, and execute them for treason.

They could have had her taster keel over, giving her reason to believe some of her own people in her own safe space of Dragonstone were trying to kill her. They could have given her believable reasons to distrust her sworn lords, and gradually given her reason to despise the people of King's Landing.

They could have had her destroy the walls of KL and the Red Keep with dragonfire, leaving the smallfolk untouched, only to have them show nothing but fear and contempt for her as she makes the walk to the Red Keep. They could have given Dany a more villainous turn that made sense, but instead the made her become a mass murderer of innocents for no reason.

They could have done this with shot scenes and lines placed throughout the last two seasons, scenes and lines that wouldn't have cost them millions of dollars as these over long battles did.

D and D are truly the Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert of film. They shouldn't let them anywhere near Star Wars.

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4 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

GOT Dany isn't a badass, she is a cowardly mass murderer of children. Pretty much everyone alive at this point has experienced loss no less traumatic than Dany has. Arya and Sansa watched their father get murdered. Their mother and elder brother were murdered, and they spent the last few seasons believing the rest of their family was murdered. Jon himself was straight up murdered.

All the characters have faced trauma, and not become murderers of children. Jaime started out as someone willing to murder a children to keep his secrets. That didn't make him a badass, it made him a scumbag. GOT Dany was just turned into a piece of shit murdering innocents for no reason because of the shitty writing of D and D.

They could have given her gradually more and more reason to distrust her closest confidants over the course of multiple episodes, and had her charge, sentence, and execute them for treason.

They could have had her taster keel over, giving her reason to believe some of her own people in her own safe space of Dragonstone were trying to kill her. They could have given her believable reasons to distrust her sworn lords, and gradually given her reason to despise the people of King's Landing.

They could have had her destroy the walls of KL and the Red Keep with dragonfire, leaving the smallfolk untouched, only to have them show nothing but fear and contempt for her as she makes the walk to the Red Keep. They could have given Dany a more villainous turn that made sense, but instead the made her become a mass murderer of innocents for no reason.

They could have done this with shot scenes and lines placed throughout the last two seasons, scenes and lines that wouldn't have cost them millions of dollars as these over long battles did.

D and D are truly the Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert of film. They shouldn't let them anywhere near Star Wars.

A mass murderer, yes, but no coward.  She's Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys reborn.

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14 minutes ago, olibar said:

Without the fear instilled in the seven kingdoms of what defiance of her rule means, the other nobel houses would be much more willing to push Jon's claim.  Now it doesn't matter that he's the "rightful" heir, it only matters that they know their kingdoms will be burned to the ground if they move against her.  That's the stick.

But the move also comes with a huge carrot.  Without the million mouths of KL to feed, the other nobel houses will be able to better feed their people during a winter that wasn't properly prepared for because of the war.  Sure, they may grumble about the dragon queen, but when they aren't facing peasant or lessor nobel revolts, they will all secretly thank her for burning it down.  So when the official reports coming out all say that Cersi never surrendered and forced the rightful Queen to use extreme measures, well, they might not exactly believe it in private, but it will be better for all to propel that rewriting of history forward in public.

Not to say any of this makes what Dany did right or good, only that it makes logical sense and shows her understanding of how the game is played in Westeros.  

That bears no actual resemblance to anything that occurred in the episode. This idea that she needs to make a point to the lords of the realm is utter bullshit. Which lords are not already on her side? She has the North, she has the Vale, she has the Iron Islands, she has the Stormlands, her Hand is the rightful heir to the Westerlands and can best press his claim with her support. Dorne, the Reach, and the Riverlands sure as hell aren't going to fight or die for Cersei. Westeros is her's, no matter who loves her. All Cersei had were some Lannisters and foreign sellsword company. Dany has Jon's support, which is all she needs to have the support of those who love and follow him. Nobody was going to get him to press his claim to the throne. I am sure he would have gladly agreed, like Aemon and Duncan before him, to forswear his claim. Not to say they couldn't have had some nice scenes actually hashing all this out, but they chose to be lazy assholes, and to have Dany randomly chose to target innocent smallfolk and murder masses of them for no reason whatsoever. D and D are hacks. If they were sick of writing the show they should have handed it off to people who actually care. Instead they rushed a shittily written last two or three seasons out, with this being the absolute shittiest.

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32 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Now, couple of days later, I kinda like the badass Dany. She hasn't found someone to equally match with. Jon turned out to be a coward, too. From her pov. She lost two dragons, two of her children because she chose to help Westeros. Everyone (Tyrion) has told her to keep calm and negotiate with Cersei instead.

She could actually burn the Winterfell as well while she's at it.

Because it’s cool to kill hundreds of thousands of non-combatants after the armed forces opposing you have literally laid down their arms?

You think slaughter is a good thing?

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A mass murderer, yes, but no coward.  She's Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys reborn.

Bullshit, Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys went straight after the kings and lords they intended to defeat. Every single king and prince(ss) of Westeros received their letters to bend the knee and refused, and fought them instead, but Aegon and his sisters knew when to accept a bent knee.

Aegon didn't have a straight shot at Harren, but decide instead to murder hundreds of thousands of smallfolk instead. He warned Harren and his family, and when they refused, he made an example of them. He targeted them, not the smallfolk of the Riverlands.

Even after the Targaryens lost a large portion of their fleet against the Arryns, and after Visenya burnt their fleet in return, Visenya didn't just unleash hell on the smallfolk of the Vale. She used her dragon creatively to fly directly to the Eyrie and land in the courtyard, and secured the Arryn surrender.

Aegon and his sisters were willing to use their dragons to kill, but for the most part, they used them to get the realm to bend the knee and accept them as their rulerss.

The smallfolk of KL are essentially hostage to Cersei. But rather than liberate them from Cersei, as she has done to other innocents previously, she murders them, even after she had secured the surrender of the remaining Lannister forces.

There is no explaining or justifying what Daenerys did. The show creators turned her into a shitty character antithetical to the character that has been built up over the years. They could have given her reason to turn against her noble allies. They could have even gradually given her believable reason to cease to care about the smallfolk of KL.

But they rushed a nonsensical snap into not caring about murdering smallfolk. All the known lords of Westeros were already either supporting her or would have been disposed to supporting her over Cersei, who has zero support. Now she has almost certainly ensured that nobody will support her, and she will likely be assassinated before she can plant her punk ass on the throne. Shittiest season by far.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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32 minutes ago, olibar said:

Without the fear instilled in the seven kingdoms of what defiance of her rule means, the other nobel houses would be much more willing to push Jon's claim.  Now it doesn't matter that he's the "rightful" heir, it only matters that they know their kingdoms will be burned to the ground if they move against her.  That's the stick.

But the move also comes with a huge carrot.  Without the million mouths of KL to feed, the other nobel houses will be able to better feed their people during a winter that wasn't properly prepared for because of the war.  Sure, they may grumble about the dragon queen, but when they aren't facing peasant or lessor nobel revolts, they will all secretly thank her for burning it down.  So when the official reports coming out all say that Cersi never surrendered and forced the rightful Queen to use extreme measures, well, they might not exactly believe it in private, but it will be better for all to propel that rewriting of history forward in public.

Not to say any of this makes what Dany did right or good, only that it makes logical sense and shows her understanding of how the game is played in Westeros.  

Post hoc Rationalization 

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1 hour ago, olibar said:

<snip> even though her solution has always been the Targaryan one, burn everything and then make changes from the ashes.

 

"Always" is the wrong word. Try "never."

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