"Bittersweet" can't happen in the show

[NickStark2494]

The possibility of a bittersweet ending was thrown out when they decided to make the White Walkers a pointless distraction in order for senseless human slaughter over an ugly iron chair to be the endgame.

[Moix]

Arya dreamed of not being a lady, of exploring and having adventures. 

Bran wanted to be a knight, and seeing far-off places.

Jon wanted to be a Stark/not being a bastard.

Sansa wanted to be a lady.

Tyrion wanted Casterly Rock/respect. 

 

In a way, a number of the characters are getting *sort of* what they wanted, (if the leaks are correct) but in a "careful what you wish for" way. Others didn't make it, but still got some kind of version of what they wanted (Theon, Sandor.) Isn't that bittersweet? 

It is sweet that the wars hopefully end, that some of our surviving main characters are alive and in charge. A lot of the furore is about Daenerys becoming a mad queen, which is something I already anticipated, and for that reason I wasn't upset. She is my least favourite character in both the books and the show. I really didn't want Jon and her sharing the throne or having a baby.

I wish they had made two 10 episode seasons too, though, it does feel rushed. Overall, I'm cautiously happy about where it's headed.  

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, NickStark2494 said:

The possibility of a bittersweet ending was thrown out when they decided to make the White Walkers a pointless distraction in order for senseless human slaughter over an ugly iron chair to be the endgame.

GRRM.  In the original "second trilogy" the Others were going to be defeated one book before the end.  There was never meant to be one big bad.  But all the other wars beforehand were plot devices to weaken the realm in the face of the Others bringing the impending doom.

It's funny how things are obvious in hindsight.  Winterfell.  It's where Winter (the Others) will fall.

[Ser Gareth]

6 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

You missed my point entirely...

People discussing what her endgame is one thing.
Ultimately those who said "she's gonna go evil" where proven right, so of course they will go down the "I told you so"-route.
But they could've just as easy been proven wrong if Daenerys hadn't gone down this route (which was just as likely, if not more), and if that was her endgame, then everyone who's recently been all in flames about "the signs of evil where there all along" would shut up, because they would instead be proven wrong.

Or do you really think that people would continue to make theories and claims about Daenerys going evil if she ultimately ends the show as a good person? If you don't, then you see what I'm getting at. 

 

Isn't this a bit like if my aunt had a cock she'd be my uncle?

They have been proven right because the author always intended her to go this way and left clues all over the books.  Some clever clogs figured out the ending to the story before ASOS was even released.  So that means all the hints are in the first two books (and depressingly it means any character introduced from ASOS onwards isn't that big of a deal).  For all his talk about being a gardener, GRRM via prophecy and foreshadowing clearly knew where the major characters were heading by the time AGOT was written.

[Hodor's Dragon]

12 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Isn't this a bit like if my aunt had a cock she'd be my uncle?

They have been proven right because the author always intended her to go this way and left clues all over the books.  <snip>

I believe the poster has said he hasn't read the books, but I think what he's saying is that there were clues pointing both ways, and in fact, more clues pointing to a very different conclusion than clues pointing to this one. If that is what he has saying, I heartily agree, and since I have read the books, I will extend the point he is making about the show (if I am reading that correctly) to the books as well. There are more clues pointing in other directions than pointing to Daenerys the Terrible.

[snow is the man]

On the plus side they replaced all the characters I liked with look a likes so when they kill them I won't feel a thing. Seriously I really hope GRRM doesn't end his books like this.

[Ser Gareth]

7 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I believe the poster has said he hasn't read the books, but I think what he's saying is that there were clues pointing both ways, and in fact, more clues pointing to a very different conclusion than clues pointing to this one. If that is what he has saying, I heartily agree, and since I have read the books, I will extend the point he is making about the show (if I am reading that correctly) to the books as well. There are more clues pointing in other directions than pointing to Daenerys the Terrible.

Actions speak louder than good intentions.  GRRM borrows heavily from other sources and Dany's is definitely a tale of the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  You see it in both the show and books.  The show was not subtle at all about what was going to happen to her.

Her personality also changes massively in ADWD and you see she becomes more megalomaniac and entitled.  I've never been able to work out if this was intentional (Jon's personality changes too) or just a symptom of GRRM losing control of the story and not being able to maintain consistency in the story.

[snow is the man]

11 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I believe the poster has said he hasn't read the books, but I think what he's saying is that there were clues pointing both ways, and in fact, more clues pointing to a very different conclusion than clues pointing to this one. If that is what he has saying, I heartily agree, and since I have read the books, I will extend the point he is making about the show (if I am reading that correctly) to the books as well. There are more clues pointing in other directions than pointing to Daenerys the Terrible.

Yeah I have read ALOT of books and I have seen the possible "madness" thing. Where the character wonders if they are going insane or people think they are. Most of the time it actually turns out they don't go insane but were worried about it. Lots of time it does show them going insane but my point is hinting that a character might go mad is very common and can come true or not. I believe dany will straddle the line but not go full aerys. However she might go insane. My point is we won't know until it happens or we get to the end and it doesn't happen. Given the way the books  are going I have to believe that it wouldn't really be a HUGE suprise if dany did go insane. I think having her go somewhere in the middle and fight to keep from turning into her father would be a good way to go.

[bizzle]

In terms of a bittersweet ending, it's possible the ending is going to be something like Dany, for all her desire to rule this place as destined from birth, realizes the only way to break chains and wheels and usher in lasting peace is if the Iron Throne is no longer available for contestation. Hence, she destroys her ancestral home in order to obliterate the center of rule. Her actions instigating city-states or some rudimentary form of democracy would fit that bittersweet definition, I think.

I do want to say that I don't think it's viable to use characters' opinions regarding Jon's potential as King as an accurate metric of what is or isn't a good ruler. Sansa, for example, is an unreliable narrator (outsider) when it comes to Jon's potential as King. She can recognize him as a leader of battles, but she has no reference of him as a ruler during peacetime as far as I know. She has much more ruling experience than he does in that regard. She's biased, however, in that her goal is not the best King for the people but rather the best King on that IT in regards to the north. And in that vein, she desires a ruler who will allow their autonomy and she believes she sees that in Jon. That's the basis for her position. The others are comparing him to "Mad" Dany. This comparison wouldn't even be occurring if not for this so-called madness they're picking up on. Dany hasn't done anything that would question her ability to lead, other than this so-called madness issue. In that vein, they're falling back on the next legitimate claimant in Jon, which is less about his potential to be a great King and more about her potential to be catastrophic. In making this the pivot point, however, the creators are ignoring the rules of ascension aren't as clean-cut as this version of the end is trying to force past everyone. It's become this strange space where if Dany doesn't get it, Jon gets it by default so we're being led down a path of his potential greatness in that capacity despite none of that actually being how any of this works in Westeros.

[snow is the man]

5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Actions speak louder than good intentions.  GRRM borrows heavily from other sources and Dany's is definitely a tale of the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  You see it in both the show and books.  The show was not subtle at all about what was going to happen to her.

Her personality also changes massively in ADWD and you see she becomes more megalomaniac and entitled.  I've never been able to work out if this was intentional (Jon's personality changes too) or just a symptom of GRRM losing control of the story and not being able to maintain consistency in the story.

I disagree. We see at the end that of ADWD that  dany is starting to come into her own. She realizes that doing these small compromises changes her. Remember in the first book she is only 14. Maybe she is 17 now? So I think GRRM is showing us that she is growing up. How she is finding her way. To me the way she is due to her sickness at the end where she is hallucinating  in ADWD will end up being like a spirit quest. She comes out more clear minded. Or maybe I am wrong but I don't see her "madness" as a definite.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I disagree. We see at the end that of ADWD that  dany is starting to come into her own. She realizes that doing these small compromises changes her. Remember in the first book she is only 14. Maybe she is 17 now? So I think GRRM is showing us that she is growing up. How she is finding her way. To me the way she is due to her sickness at the end where she is hallucinating  in ADWD will end up being like a spirit quest. She comes out more clear minded. Or maybe I am wrong but I don't see her "madness" as a definite.

She has more common sense at 14 than 17 then!

[snow is the man]

3 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

She has more common sense at 14 than 17 then!

In the books or show? In the books she is starting to truly accept that her family wasn't perfect and that her father was mad. She is also starting to realize that she can't please everyone and is beggining to balance her "compromising" with the nobles. I definetly think that dany is gonna be smarter going forward in the books. Which is ironic because this is about the time she became stupid in the show.

[Ser Gareth]

1 minute ago, snow is the man said:

In the books or show? In the books she is starting to truly accept that her family wasn't perfect and that her father was mad. She is also starting to realize that she can't please everyone and is beggining to balance her "compromising" with the nobles. I definetly think that dany is gonna be smarter going forward in the books. Which is ironic because this is about the time she became stupid in the show.

Books.  She's an utter thicko in ADWD.

[CrypticWeirwood]

8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Imagine if Frodo would turn evil right at the end and Sam had to push him down into mount doom along with the ring.
That's not bittersweet, that's tragic, for both Sam, Frodo, and for the invested reader. 

Ah, but Frodo did turn evil in the end! Don't you remember?

‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight.’

In the end, Frodo failed at his quest. But the overarching quest to destroy the Ring nonetheless succeeded when Sméagol then at that very moment bit off Frodo’s ring finger, Ring included, and serendipitously plunged into the fire.

The quest succeeded despite Frodo becoming evil. 

Or mad. Or whatever you want to call it. 

He failed in the end. He knew he failed, and ever more lived with that bitter knowledge.

 

[snow is the man]

21 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Books.  She's an utter thicko in ADWD.

Honestly I see her learning a lesson from this book though. She is gonna go the route of peter the great and other rulers who dragged their countries forward even if it was kicking and screaming. I think she is gonna be brutal sometimes but only when it serves a real purpose.

[Nightwish]

17 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Ah, but Frodo did turn evil in the end! Don't you remember?

‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight.’

In the end, Frodo failed at his quest. But the overarching quest to destroy the Ring nonetheless succeeded when Sméagol then at that very moment bit off Frodo’s ring finger, Ring included, and serendipitously plunged into the fire.

The quest succeeded despite Frodo becoming evil. 

Or mad. Or whatever you want to call it. 

He failed in the end. He knew he failed, and ever more lived with that bitter knowledge.

 

GOT is like having 15 different Frodo and all failed both personally and as a quest. Imagine LOTH in that perspective, first Frodo, then Aragon, then Sam, then Pipin, then Merin, then Galdaf. Make it also that they all lose their life on the way.  

Wouldn't that be ridiculous? 

What made LOTR message so clear was that 

a) you have a quest - a union - here every character has his own quest 

b) its not repetitive - 

Some characters do not even have clear quests but have super powers. (Bran?)

And others decided to go back to Sarouman after reaching Mount Doom (Jamie). As he stated he never cared about the people so why did he start climbing that mountain in the first place? 

The only decent quest (WW) who could indeed make this journey worth it was killed in one hour and thirty minutes. 

 

 

[MinscS2]

2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Ah, but Frodo did turn evil in the end! Don't you remember?

‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight.’

In the end, Frodo failed at his quest. But the overarching quest to destroy the Ring nonetheless succeeded when Sméagol then at that very moment bit off Frodo’s ring finger, Ring included, and serendipitously plunged into the fire.

The quest succeeded despite Frodo becoming evil. 

Or mad. Or whatever you want to call it. 

He failed in the end. He knew he failed, and ever more lived with that bitter knowledge.

 

I agree that he failed - but he also survived and was only evil for a very brief time.

My point wasn't so much Frodo briefly turning evil but that of a comparison between LotR and GoT where Sam would have to kill his beloved Frodo (possibly along with himself) in order to destroy the ring - which is where we're seemingly heading in GoT.

In LotR Gollum saved the day by (unwillingly) causing the ring to be destroyed in a manner that ultimately concluded in both Frodo and Sam surviving, and I don't see how we can end on a similar note in GoT, because a) There is no Gollum:esque character and b) Frodo didn't turn into a bigger threat and mass-murderer than Sauron.

 

[MinscS2]

7 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

I would say Robert is better than all of these, as well as Jon would be too.

Jon would be a better king than Ramsay Bolton, but that doesn't mean he'd make for a good king.

Just like Robert, Jon would be a king who hates being king (he's made that abundantly clear already), and so leaves all political matters (i.e. the real power) to his Hand and the Small Council (which in Roberts case was the real reason the realm was stable for so many years, courtesy of Jon Arryn), and who eventually becomes depressed by the reality that he can never be with the woman he loves and is stuck with a position that he hates. 

Robert ended up marrying a woman he despised for purely political reasons, and eventually drowned his sorrows in whores and wine. I can see Jon's future leading to a similar, depressing end, if he does end up on the throne (which I don't think he will, but that's for a different topic.)

Ultimately, given where we currently are, Jon is one of the best candidates for being king, but that's really not saying much given what the other options are. What's the saying... In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
 

[Erkan12]

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Jon would be a better king than Ramsay Bolton, but that doesn't mean he'd make for a good king.

Just like Robert, Jon would be a king who hates being king (he's made that abundantly clear already), and so leaves all political matters (i.e. the real power) to his Hand and the Small Council (which in Roberts case was the real reason the realm was stable for so many years, courtesy of Jon Arryn), and who eventually becomes depressed by the reality that he can never be with the woman he loves and is stuck with a position that he hates. 

Robert ended up marrying a woman he despised for purely political reasons, and eventually drowned his sorrows in whores and wine. I can see Jon's future leading to a similar, depressing end, if he does end up on the throne (which I don't think he will, but that's for a different topic.)

Ultimately, given where we currently are, Jon is one of the best candidates for being king, but that's really not saying much given what the other options are. What's the saying... In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
 

Yes, that's my point. Varys was so desperate and he was surrended with the cruel tyrants and the mad people, he actually believed Jon would be a better ruler than all of them ever would,

That's the realm needs right now, another peaceful 15 years (except for the Greyjoy rebellion which they smashed them easily), which is possible if Dany dies and Jon becomes the king.

Do you really believe there will be peace with Dany's rule? I think it will not, she literally burned the KL and children alive there, as she says she has no love in Westeros and only fear, and people will never like her, while they love Jon.

[NickStark2494]

16 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

GRRM.  In the original "second trilogy" the Others were going to be defeated one book before the end.  There was never meant to be one big bad.  But all the other wars beforehand were plot devices to weaken the realm in the face of the Others bringing the impending doom.

It's funny how things are obvious in hindsight.  Winterfell.  It's where Winter (the Others) will fall.

What second trilogy ? What are you talking about ?
All I know is that in GRRM's original outline, the Others were described as the focus of the last book and the final battle.