Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[divica]

4 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

It's not bittersweet, it's evil.

What kind of asshole King would Bran skinchange into who doesn't help to fight against the Others? Aegon? Dany? Both of them would be probably willing to help I imagine.

Also, I don't think that's the utilitarian message that the story wants to impart, that would mean that Bran is no different from Bloodraven.

However, what makes it truly evil is STAYING in his body after the Long Night ends.

It is bittersweet because he would do it out of necessity and to do something good with the body but at the same time he is doing something awfull and ends up not being able to let go of a new body capable of walking, be a knight and everything he ever wanted. And bran has proved he is a little asshole with warging into hodor when he thinks he has to do it. Can you really say he wouldn t take over the body of someone evil if he was tempted enough?

And I think this is in line with asoiaf. That people are capable of good and bad. There are no saints.

4 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, it's not wishful thinking, it's looking at the story of Bran, Arya and Sansa as 3 parallel hero's journeys. 

Sansa staying at the Vale doesn't make for an engaging story and doesn't give an opportunity for her character to evolve. 

Also, if that was Sansa's story, why wasn't it implemented in the show? They could have avoided the backlash that came with the Ramsay-Sansa pairing.

I think it is much more likely that Sansa will be (f?)Aegon's Queen, who brings Cersei down.

You are wishing for the 3 characters to have parallel hero journeys...

And sansa staying in the vale is the best thing that can happen to her. She can grow into a player of the game. Learn to gain power, to gain allies, to understand LF and learn how to beat him. And it is funny that you are complaining, but sansa learning from LF so that she can backstab him at some point and use the vale to help the north is exactly the type of journey you want for her.

In regards to the show, I think it is rather easy to understand. The Ds didn't want to spend money/time developing the vale so they turned into an afterthought and forced sansa into the storyline of the north (and it makes sense that when she learns of jon trying to unite the north she will try to help). As a reader of the books you know that in order for the knights of the vale to participate in the story we need a pov in the vale and that is sansa. 

45 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Sansa in charge of the Vale?  Sorry, but no.  The Vale holds no meaning for her.  It's a refuge, and not much more.  One part of her story is discovering who she is.  And who she is is a Stark.  Her story is of the North.

She has familly in the vale. She has her father's friends in the vale. The old gods mean something in the vale but they also care about southern costums like tourneys and knights. The vale is the region that best represents sansa. A mixture of north and south.

Sansa wouldn't fare well in this north where the most civilized northmen are making frey pies, wildlings are marrying karstarks, cannibal skagosi might be joining the fray, cragnonmen and some iron born might also be more proeminent. And I am not even talking about how everyone is just more wild and angry given all they have sufered. 

Of the 2 stark girls arya is the one that would fit better in the north now

Edited April 22, 2023 by divica

[csuszka1948]

52 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, yes, I may be disappointed.  Martin’s take on history may be that people who try to do good are stupid saps, who deserve to fail, and the liars and manipulators are the guys who understand how the game is played, and who deserve to win.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think that's Martin's take on history, he just doesn't think that 'good guys make good rulers and bad guys make bad rulers', thus his choice to make Tyrion Hand at the end (+becaise he is his favorite character).

The contrast between the overall legacies Tywin and Ned left behind seems to strongly point against this take.

 

I expect Martin's ending (if he ever releases it) will probably be even more controversial (but obviously much better written) than the show though. He has never written the story with the intention of crowd pleasing and never thought it will become so successful, but that won't dissuade him from keeping (nearly) the same ending he had in mind for many years.

Edited April 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[illrede]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I would hope they get would better endings than the show gave them.  Defeat is no refutation.

But, yes, I may be disappointed.  Martin’s take on history may be that people who try to do good are stupid saps, who deserve to fail, and the liars and manipulators are the guys who understand how the game is played, and who deserve to win.

Look at it this way- if you gave a show bible synopsis of the career of John Lackland, you could see him fitting in as one of the show's version of a winner. Treacherous subordinate, legal genius, mind-bogglingly competent and charismatic subordinates carrying him across the finish line on multiple occasions (Marshal and his mom) "cut the gordian knot" literally by murdering his nephew in a basement, died a king.

But really, by the end of his life (starting the end of his life halfway through his life), it was more an ironic divine punishment and personal hell.

[illrede]

2 minutes ago, illrede said:

Look at it this way- if you gave a show bible synopsis of the career of John Lackland, you could see him fitting in as one of the show's version of a winner. Treacherous subordinate, legal genius, mind-bogglingly competent and charismatic subordinates carrying him across the finish line on multiple occasions (Marshal and his mom) "cut the gordian knot" literally by murdering his nephew in a basement, died a king.

But really, by the end of his life (starting the end of his life halfway through his life), it was more an ironic divine punishment and personal hell.

Oh. and there was that one time he betrayed one of his own garrisons to its death (Richard came back, he flipped, and proved his usefulness by betraying his own men... to their deaths. They died.)

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think that's Martin's take on history, he just doesn't think that 'good guys make good rulers and bad guys make bad rulers', thus his choice to make Tyrion Hand at the end (+becaise he is his favorite character).

The contrast between the overall legacies Tywin and Ned left behind seems to strongly point against this take.

 

I expect Martin's ending (if he ever releases it) will probably be even more controversial (but obviously much better written) than the show though. He has never written the story with the intention of crowd pleasing and never thought it will become so successful, but that won't dissuade him from keeping (nearly) the same ending he had in mind for many years.

Tyrion is an appalling man in the books, and the author has described him as “the villain.”  I view him as the Walter White of the series. (I hated him more in the show, however, for his stupidity and sanctimony).

An ending where Tyrion wins would be bitter, rather than bittersweet.  He is, after all, Tywin’s carbon copy.  It would be like Iago finishing up on top.

Edited April 22, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, divica said:

I want to agree with you, but I don't think the Ds understood the mensage they were sending with their ending. I think they actually thought that it was a happy ending with a stark on the IT, sansa as queen after having sufered so much, arya the sailor (never going to understand why they didn't say she was going to explore essos) and jon with his friends (whoever they may be besides tormund)...

Even if you ignore the story (and you should never do that) we are talking about people that ended GoT without having good battle scenes in the last season. Like, why didn't someone kill vyserion doing something insane? why didn't we have some awesome fight between several characters and several ww? why didn't we have several characters gang up on the mountain to kill him in a travesty of the toj scene ith arthur? why, plese wHY DID A DEAD GIANT GRAB LYANNA AND BROUGHT HER TO 30CM FROM HIS EYE? why did the dothriaki ride to their doom in the first 30 secs of the battle? And I could go on.

Both the story and the execution were too bad to try to understand grrm intentions based on the last season. And we just have to compare it with the battle of the bastards that had a ridiculous story that made no sense but as it had several cool scenes people liked it. For some reason they couldn't even mantain this standar in season 8.

No, I don’t think they fully understood what they were writing.  They thought we’d still be rooting for people who had become quite unsympathetic, by the end.

[csuszka1948]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion is an appalling man in the books, and the author has described him as “the villain.”  I view him as the Walter White of the series. (I hated him more in the show, however, for his stupidity and sanctimony).

An ending where Tyrion wins would be bitter, rather than bittersweet.  He is, after all, Tywin’s carbon copy.  It would be like Iago finishing up on top.

 

I don't think that will be Tyrion at the end of the series, that's who Tyrion is now.

I believe his dream about Jaime dying and one of his eyes crying is a foreshadowing that he will (probably indirectly, using his words) cause the death of of the remaining of his family, only to realize that's not what he wanted all along.

He will be wracked with guilt and grief, give up Casterly Rock to Tyrek and will genuinely intend to make amends and (because Bran remembers the kindness he showed him and sees the genuine remorse he has shown) get an opportunity to do it as Hand of the King.

Edited April 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

That's exactly what Doran Martell has done after Elia and her children were brutally murdered. Was it a bad decision? I don't think so - it was a difficult choice but the right one. 

That said, I have to admit I shouldn't have included Ned, since he genuinely tried to avoid war (as I mentioned it among parantheses). Tywin's decision to send the Mountain to the Riverlands over Tyrion's kidnapping would have been a better example.

Where did I say that? I don't think it's on my list.

She had a good argument in favor of peace. A peace plan is not something that can be crafted overnight.

Arya's disappearance was not known, the lords made their decision without that.

She doesn't need dragons to help out the people around her.

If you read her POV, her primary motivation was becoming queen, not the remainder of the khalasar that surrounded her.

It wasn't an evil action, but she undoubtedly chose a (possible) future war (or her death if she fails) over a reasonable chance at peace.

Again, it isn't on my list.

That's what he would have done if it wasn't his sister married to Ramsay (about whose nature he didn't actually know much before the Pink Letter!) and it wasn't his family that was displaced. 

I think there were quite a few members of the Night's Watch who faced a similar situation in the past.

Dany's choice in Astapor is arguably a good one, and so is Jon's decision to advise Stannis and Robb helping out the Riverlands. I don't think the same can be said about the rest of them (if we view the smallfolk almost as important as the nobles).

I don't believe the Wall is going to fall because the Others are so crafty and overwhelm it with wights (if they were able to, they could have accomplished it after the Battle of the Fist of the First Men), but as a result of human actions and warring in the South.

I don't think (but admittedly I don't have conclusive evidence) that the Long Night is inevitable.

The main progress is that they decide who should be King during a Great Council instead of the warring which has decimated the smallfolk:

“Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them.” (Catelyn IV, ACOK)

 

I imagine will be other examples of progress in the books, such as an attempt to 'dish out' justice fairly for the crimes committed during the wars and this justice will probably be restorative in nature. I think Bran's decision to make Tyrion Hand and send Jon North was a (poorly written) example of that by the showrunners.

 

The fact that GRRM decided to introduce Young Griff and is planning a Second Dance of Dragons should be a forewarning that he is not planning to write a story of great social progress in Westeros though. Dany would be the perfect person to spearhead such a movement but she won't do it in Westeros, because she doesn't have a large base of support there.

Doran had no choice in the matter.  We learn that he’s always wanted revenge for the murder of Elia and her children.  Had he been able to strike earlier, he would have done.

Tywin had the choice to unleash war on the Riverlands or not.  But once he did, then his victims had no choice but to fight back.  For his victims, therefore, war was unavoidable.    

What I ought to have said is that in this world war is frequently unavoidable.

The big error in making Robb King in the North was that it made forming alliances with the other anti-Lannister forces an impossibility.  However,  I don’t think peace with the Lannisters was ever a realistic possibility.  Had Robb travelled to the capital to give fealty to Joffrey, that’s the last anyone would ever have seen of him.  Tywin was quite prepared to write off Jaime if he had to.

Robb would never have forgiven the Lannisters for their actions, and the Lannisters would know he would never forgive them.

WRT Dany’s final chapter in AGOT, I still don’t believe it would have been an ethically good choice, had she ridden off to live in luxury a place like Volantis, where five sixths of the population are completely dehumanised.  Jorah isn’t suggesting it for the sake of peace.  He’s suggesting it for the sake of getting into her knickers.  That dirty old man might well have raped her along the way.  Both her setting the remaining slaves free, and subsequent chapters in ACOK show that she does feel responsibility for her followers.

Rather like Bilbo’s finding the Ring, my impression is that Dany’s was not the only will at work in that final scene.  She was *meant* to hatch the dragon eggs at that point in time.

WRT the North, it’s pretty well known in the North that the Boltons are beasts.  Their sigil, the flayed man, is pretty much on the nose.  The only way Jon could have peace, if at all, is by handing over guests to them, in violation of this society’s moral norms.

Edited April 22, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, illrede said:

Look at it this way- if you gave a show bible synopsis of the career of John Lackland, you could see him fitting in as one of the show's version of a winner. Treacherous subordinate, legal genius, mind-bogglingly competent and charismatic subordinates carrying him across the finish line on multiple occasions (Marshal and his mom) "cut the gordian knot" literally by murdering his nephew in a basement, died a king.

But really, by the end of his life (starting the end of his life halfway through his life), it was more an ironic divine punishment and personal hell.

John was, I think, the most evil king that England had.  Ultimately, his evil was self-defeating, however.

Like Charles of Navarre, he kept faith with no one, so that his supporters and allies turned on him.  And, it cost him half of his French territories.

[SeanF]

On 4/22/2023 at 9:11 AM, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think that will be Tyrion at the end of the series, that's who Tyrion is now.

I believe his dream about Jaime dying and one of his eyes crying is a foreshadowing that he will (probably indirectly, using his words) cause the death of of the remaining of his family, only to realize that's not what he wanted all along.

He will be wracked with guilt and grief, give up Casterly Rock to Tyrek and will genuinely intend to make amends and (because Bran remembers the kindness he showed him and sees the genuine remorse he has shown) get an opportunity to do it as Hand of the King.

I think Martin envisaged Tyrion as the Harry Flashman of the story, an entertaining rogue.  But, there’s a real malice to him, that is more like Richard III or Iago.

But, he may end up as you suggest.

[BlackLightning]

On 4/23/2023 at 4:02 AM, SeanF said:

I think Martin envisaged Tyrion as the Harry Flashman of the story, an entertaining rogue.  But, there’s a real malice to him, that is more like Richard III or Iago.

But, he may end up as you suggest.

Exactly

Anyone who can't see how malicious and depraved Tyrion is hasn't really been paying attention to the books.

I'll never forget the way he reacted to the fate of Masha Heddle...and this was way before he was severely traumatized and betrayed

He may end up as @csuszka1948 says but, in any case, he'll either be put to death or exiled.

Sorry but I don't think any of the endings of the main characters will be as they are. There will be some passing similarities but the differences are too great for any of the endings to be "the same." Not even in the broad strokes. For example:

• The nature of the Others is completely different.
• Euron is so powerful that he scares and worries Moqorro, a legitimately powerful sorcerer...
• The structural magic of the Wall has weaknesses one of them being the Horn of Winter.
• Ancient greenseers can use their powers to control nature. 
• The influx of all the wildlings tribes and probably the Skagosi in the North would make it both impossible and impractical for someone like Sansa to rule over
• All of the Starks are said to be powerful skinchangers with Bran at the top of the food chain, Arya coming in at second and Sansa being the "weakest"
• The Starks have not had a maritime tradition in thousands of years and Arya has no connection to the seas
• Tyrion is innocent in killing Joffrey but he killed his father with zero hesitation and he frequently fantasizes about torturing and killing his other blood relatives. Then he went on a very public rant about wanting to kill everyone in King's Landing. After everything is said and done, no one will want anything to do with him: he is the definition of untrustworthiness
• Daenerys cannot control all three dragons; she can only control one. Who will claim and control the other two?
• Dorne is getting very involved in this last phase of the story. And House Dayne appears to be very important to the endgame.
• Jon Connington is a ticking time bomb

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Exactly

Anyone who can't see how malicious and depraved Tyrion is hasn't really been paying attention to the books.

I'll never forget the way he reacted to the fate of Masha Heddle...and this was way before he was severely traumatized and betrayed

He may end up as @csuszka1948 says but, in any case, he'll either be put to death or exiled.

 

 

 

I would be very surprised by that. Tyrion is George's favorite character whose wits get him out of impossible situations and he stated multiple times that he views Tyrion as the most effective ruler.

Bran naming him Hand to atone for his crimes with service to the realm while simultaneously stripping him of Casterly Rock would be the most fitting ending for him. 

 

As for the rest, Arya loves sailing and exploring and her ending up doing something along those lines - obviously not alone, but with the friends she made along the way - I can see happening. Sansa being Lady of Winterfell also makes sense, the wildlings can still kneel to and follow Jon. 

Dany's two dragons will be a large divergence, I agree. The dragonhorn was introduced for a reason - to get 1 or 2 dragons to Westeros before Dany arrives. 

However, I think you greatly overstate the role Dorne and the Daynes play, I see the Martells as mostly 'mid-story filler' about the cost of vengeance. The main 3 families of the story were always the Lannisters, the Starks and the Targaryens and the Greyjoys (especially Euron) might play some additional role in the endgame.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by csuszka1948

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I would be very surprised by that. Tyrion is George's favorite character whose wits get him out of impossible situations and he stated multiple times that he views Tyrion as the most effective ruler.

 

George loves writing for Tyrion but Tyrion is the "villain [protagonist]" of the tale. And no, Bran is George's favorite character. But Bran is also the hardest character to write. Tyrion is probably one of the easier ones.

Tyrion's knack for using his wits to get out of impossible situations won't last forever. You have a lot of foreshadowing about this in Storm and Dance. Tywin repeatedly tells Tyrion that he talks and jests too much and that his tongue will be his undoing one day.

The vast majority of people within the story that Tyrion has come across DO NOT like him...and for good reason. "Irrelevant" lowborn people who don't know him well like Ysilla and Yandry (captains of the Shy Maid) can't stand him. And people of largely unimpeachable character like Ned Stark never say anything good about Tyrion.

Regardless of how bad of a man Tywin is, kinslaying is beyond the pale. The near-universal stigma of kinslaying is enough to give someone like Victarion pause. Not even Aerys at his most unhinged would dare. All of the known kinslayers of the series (Maegor, Euron, Ramsay, maybe Gregor) are monsters. That is no coincidence.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Bran naming him Hand to atone for his crimes with service to the realm while simultaneously stripping him of Casterly Rock would be the most fitting ending for him. 

That's ludicrous and disturbing.

Are convicted murderers and rapists installed as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom? As Speaker of the House? As Vice President of the United States?

Why are you putting criminals in high offices so that they can atone for their crimes? If you want to make criminals atone for their crimes, you confine them to an isolated institution where they are rehabilitated into productive members of society...not give them sociopolitical authority over millions

The whole gesture becomes even more insulting when you look at the way that Jon Snow was treated.

In any case, Bran would be a fool to make Tyrion (with his long history of being unpopular/unlikeable) his second-in-command. Lots of people would have a problem with that.

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

As for the rest, Arya loves sailing and exploring and her ending up doing something along those lines - obviously not alone, but with the friends she made along the way - I can see happening. Sansa being Lady of Winterfell also makes sense, the wildlings can still kneel to and follow Jon. 

Arya? Sure...but only with friends. Never alone. But if it came down between her friends and her actual family, Arya's going with family. If they needed her (and they will need her post-Long Night), she'll stay.

Sansa? As Lady of Winterfell? Yes, it makes sense...but only if Rickon isn't alive. And Rickon, as it stands, is the future of House Stark. GRRM keeps saying that he has lots of plans for both Rickon and Osha. As Queen of the North? No, it doesn't.

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

The dragonhorn was introduced for a reason - to get 1 or 2 dragons to Westeros before Dany arrives. 

Getting 1 or 2 dragons to Westeros before Dany arrives?

That's not how the dragonhorn works and no one in Slaver's Bay is ready or inclined to leave for Westeros immediately after claiming a dragon.

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

However, I think you greatly overstate the role Dorne and the Daynes play, I see the Martells as mostly 'mid-story filler' about the cost of vengeance. The main 3 families of the story were always the Lannisters, the Starks and the Targaryens and the Greyjoys (especially Euron) might play some additional role in the endgame.

How can the Martells be midstory filler when the Martells and Aegon will be on the Iron Throne by the time Daenerys comes and the Wall falls

They'll be the ones in control when the shit hits the fan

 

[csuszka1948]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

George loves writing for Tyrion but Tyrion is the "villain [protagonist]" of the tale. And no, Bran is George's favorite character. But Bran is also the hardest character to write. Tyrion is probably one of the easier ones.

 

 

No, Tyrion is undoubtedly his favorite:

Tyrion is my favorite character. Okay? OKAY? Can we PLEASE put that one to rest?? I love all my viewpoint characters, Arya and Sansa and Bran, Jon Snow and Brienne, Arianne and Cersei and Jaime, Theon, even Victarion and the Damphair, ALL of them, but I love Tyrion the bestest. Tyrion son of Tywin, the Imp, second son of Casterly Rock. How many bloody times do I need to say it?? I swear, from now on, whenever anybody asks me, "who is you favorite character," I am going to start naming characters from other people's books. Cugel the Clever. Flashman. Gatsby. Hotspur. Solomon Kane. A different one each time…

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion's knack for using his wits to get out of impossible situations won't last forever. You have a lot of foreshadowing about this in Storm and Dance. Tywin repeatedly tells Tyrion that he talks and jests too much and that his tongue will be his undoing one day.

 

 

It has already been his undoing.  

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The vast majority of people within the story that Tyrion has come across DO NOT like him...and for good reason. "Irrelevant" lowborn people who don't know him well like Ysilla and Yandry (captains of the Shy Maid) can't stand him. And people of largely unimpeachable character like Ned Stark never say anything good about Tyrion.

 

Ned Stark doesn't say anything about Tyrion at all, I don't see how it is relevant.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Regardless of how bad of a man Tywin is, kinslaying is beyond the pale. The near-universal stigma of kinslaying is enough to give someone like Victarion pause. Not even Aerys at his most unhinged would dare. All of the known kinslayers of the series (Maegor, Euron, Ramsay, maybe Gregor) are monsters. That is no coincidence.

 

Bloodraven was a kinslayer and Hand of the King for decades.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

That's ludicrous and disturbing.

Are convicted murderers and rapists installed as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom? As Speaker of the House? As Vice President of the United States?

Why are you putting criminals in high offices so that they can atone for their crimes? If you want to make criminals atone for their crimes, you confine them to an isolated institution where they are rehabilitated into productive members of society...not give them sociopolitical authority over millions

 

What crime would be Tyrion convicted with? His rape isn't known and Tywin will probably have a much worse reputation by the end of the series, and Joffrey's true murderers will probably be revealed. I am not sure that it will be a trial, instead of just Bran offering to make Tyrion his Hand after elected King seeing that he rejected Casterly Rock and his father's rotten legacy.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The whole gesture becomes even more insulting when you look at the way that Jon Snow was treated.

 

 

I am pretty sure this won't happen.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Sansa? As Lady of Winterfell? Yes, it makes sense...but only if Rickon isn't alive. And Rickon, as it stands, is the future of House Stark. GRRM keeps saying that he has lots of plans for both Rickon and Osha. As Queen of the North? No, it doesn't.

 

 

Where did he say it? Anyway, I expect Davos' retrieval mission to fail and result in Rickon's death (Winds of Winter is the darkest novel where innocent children die in droves) and Davos will see that his service to Stannis can result in dead children, which might be important for Davos when Stannis burns Shireen.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Getting 1 or 2 dragons to Westeros before Dany arrives?

That's not how the dragonhorn works and no one in Slaver's Bay is ready or inclined to leave for Westeros immediately after claiming a dragon.

 

We do not know how the dragonhorn works, GRRM can make it work it any way he pleases. I wouldn't be surprised if a dragon was making his way to Euron.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

How can the Martells be midstory filler when the Martells and Aegon will be on the Iron Throne by the time Daenerys comes and the Wall falls

They'll be the ones in control when the shit hits the fan

 

I expect KL to blow up at the end of TWOW - symbolizing the end of the 'game of thrones' - and Aegon, many Sandsnakes and possibly Arianne will die. The Dornish vengeance plan - just like pretty much all (complicated) vengeance plans in the series - will fail.

The main characters in the last book will be Starks, Lannisters and Dany, while Euron and Cersei will be the final two human antagonists, just like for most of season 7&8 of the show (obviously with much better writing and a very different Euron and Cersei).

[SeanF]

Tyrion’s becoming Hand would be a scenario where evil won.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Ned Stark doesn't say anything about Tyrion at all, I don't see how it is relevant.

I stand corrected on Tyrion (mostly; I'm curious to see the source interview) but Ned Stark not saying anything positive about Tyrion is telling.

He is not fond of him nor does he feel bad or concerned that Tyrion has been arrested by Catelyn. In fact, he fully supports Catelyn in her decision and would've likely done the same.

In the end, Tyrion has never had a good, trustworthy reputation. And the person 100% at fault for that is Tyrion.

On 6/23/2023 at 10:04 PM, SeanF said:

Tyrion’s becoming Hand would be a scenario where evil won.

100% correct

On 6/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, csuszka1948 said:

What crime would be Tyrion convicted with? His rape isn't known and Tywin will probably have a much worse reputation by the end of the series, and Joffrey's true murderers will probably be revealed. I am not sure that it will be a trial, instead of just Bran offering to make Tyrion his Hand after elected King seeing that he rejected Casterly Rock and his father's rotten legacy.

The crime of 1) murdering the Queen, 2) manipulating the King into murdering the Queen and 3) dishonoring the very institution of all monarchies, not just the Westerosi one.

This is, of course, operating under the presumption that many people (including yourself but correct me if I am wrong) that the books will end like the show.

If the books will end like the show, Jon murdering Daenerys (in her own home, no less) at the behest of Tyrion would be an atrocity. Frankly, it'd be viewed as much worse than Daenerys losing her shit and deciding to raze King's Landing to the ground.

And you're still not properly acknowledging the fact that kinslaying is beyond abominable. It doesn't matter how foul that person is; the rules of the ASOIAF series clearly state that such an act is both inexcusable and unconscionable. And for it to be his own father...Tywin is a terrible person and deserved to die but Tyrion is forever indebted Tywin. Not only that but Tyrion is Tywin 2.0

On 6/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Bloodraven was a kinslayer and Hand of the King for decades.

1. Everyone hated and feared Bloodraven...he had no friends. AKA the exact opposite of what Tyrion says he wants.
2. Bloodraven was never a confirmed kinslayer nor was he ever an accused kingslayer...unlike Tyrion.
3. The closest that Bloodraven got to kinslaying got him exiled to the Wall

Bloodraven, for all his ills and misdeeds, was also a decorated war hero and a successful Hand. Tyrion was a good Hand...but he wasn't that good. And nowhere near as successful as Bloodraven.

You know who else was a very successful Hand? Tywin Lannister, an bad man.

Ending the story with yet another bad Hand of questionable competency after a long line of bad or incompetent Hands is not good.

No one who has survived the horrors of the War of the Five Kings, the Second Dance of the Dragons and the Second Long Night is going to want to have a man with Tyrion's track record in control at court! No one!

And for a dark horse like Bran (he's a sweetheart but face it...he'll be a bit creepy and it's going to take some time for the people of Westeros to adapt) to make that kind of appointment at the beginning of his reign (which will be disputed) would be an act of political suicide. Especially if he's also having a thieving deserter from the Citadel, a sellsword-turned-banker and a female "knight" on his Small Council...

On 6/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Where did he say it? Anyway, I expect Davos' retrieval mission to fail and result in Rickon's death (Winds of Winter is the darkest novel where innocent children die in droves) and Davos will see that his service to Stannis can result in dead children, which might be important for Davos when Stannis burns Shireen.

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-important-plans-rickon-stark-2020-9

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/07/08/a-winter-garden/

GRRM never said that The Winds of Winter is going to be the darkest novel because it's the one where children die in droves. That's something you made up.

He said it's the darkest novel yet because a lot of its characters will be in very dark places. However, the ending of the series, as he has reiterated, will be bittersweet much like Lord of the Rings.

And frankly, Rickon is more useful to the story alive than dead. A succession crisis between Jon and Rickon with the question of what to do with Stannis and the Others looming in the background is very juicy...especially when you throw Sansa into the mix.

On 6/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, csuszka1948 said:

I expect KL to blow up at the end of TWOW - symbolizing the end of the 'game of thrones' - and Aegon, many Sandsnakes and possibly Arianne will die. The Dornish vengeance plan - just like pretty much all (complicated) vengeance plans in the series - will fail.

The main characters in the last book will be Starks, Lannisters and Dany, while Euron and Cersei will be the final two human antagonists, just like for most of season 7&8 of the show (obviously with much better writing and a very different Euron and Cersei).

First of all: I too think KL will be a burnt, blasted ruin when all is said and done. I've always believed that it would happen before the end of the series (sometime in A Dream of Spring) but, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense for it to happen at the end of The Winds of Winter. It's as clear as day.

That said, the end of KL (as we know it at least) does mean the end of "the game of thrones."

• Northern Westeros has its own game of thrones going on and that game of thrones is completely independent of the game of thrones played in southern Westeros.
• Cyvasse is all the rage in Dorne and the Free Cities and it plays like a literal "game of thrones." It's both a metaphor for the "game of thrones" and a reference to the real-world game of chess...which is a literal "game of thrones."
• Arya has been learning "the game of faces" in Braavos and when you really examine its rules, you will see that it has a lot in common with the "game of thrones."
• Slaver's Bay is experiencing its own game of thrones: by the end of Dance, it's been pretty much made clear that Barristan, Grey Worm, Missandei, etc. are fighting at least three different factions with each one vying for control over Meereen.
• We hear of rumors pertaining to another game of thrones in the far eastern country of Yi Ti. 

The game of thrones is a referendum of sorts on human nature, on how we're always angling and grappling and fighting for power. Ending the game of thrones means "breaking the wheel" and I don't believe that any one person can conclusively break it beyond repair...even if they are at the head of a massive army.

Secondly, the end of KL does not mean the end of Connington, Aegon and the Martells. What was the point of bringing up Aegon and foreshadowing this war between "dragons light and dark, red and black with a lion snarling amidst them all" if half of that equation is going to be blown up before the other half of that equation can show up?!

Sometimes, losing a fight can be good for you and winning a fight can be the worst thing that ever happened to you. Aegon and the Martells winning the Iron Throne at the cost of pissing off millions of people and destroying King's Landing to the point where it is indefensible is a fitting conclusion to that storyline. What storyline? That of the Dornish vengeance. Two points have to be made in order for the story to stick its landing in a way that makes sense.

1. Vengeance may feel good in the short term (i.e. raping and murdering the lot of nobles and priests in King's Landing who were "complicit" in the rape and murder of their family members) and it may be justifiable but it is ultimately an evil that only invites more evil and hardship.
2. And it's besides the fact...Doran played the hand he was dealt poorly and waited way too late to cash in. His attempts to preserve life while also getting vengeance while also putting the Martells in power over the whole empire is going to do the exact opposite. You can't have it both ways.

Aegon and the Martells are a big part of the endgame. I don't think you realize how you are letting the showrunners (who clearly never cared to understand the story as it was, much less make a fitting adaptation for it) shape your perception of the story.

Cersei Lannister is not going to be holding the Iron Throne while playing hard-to-get high school games with Euron Greyjoy when the Wall is breached and the Mother of Dragons makes landfall.

If not her, then who will be sitting the Throne when it happens? Stannis? It's extremely unlikely as time, space, logic and almost the entire continent is not on his side. Euron? More likely than Stannis but still unlikely to happen...at least, not yet. Jon Snow? Forget about it; no time and too far...somewhat more likely than Stannis. Myrcella or Tommen? Almost impossible but still more possible than Cersei and Jon Snow.

It has to be Aegon. And if it is Aegon, who will be his queen, who will sit on his council and who will be most present at court?

Only GRRM and God know exactly who they all will be but I think we can all safely bet money on the fact that Varys will be present, that at least one of the Martells will be in a position of great power, that Connington will have left a significant mark and that Daenerys will be excluded.

[csuszka1948]

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I stand corrected on Tyrion (mostly; I'm curious to see the source interview) but Ned Stark not saying anything positive about Tyrion is telling.

He is not fond of him nor does he feel bad or concerned that Tyrion has been arrested by Catelyn. In fact, he fully supports Catelyn in her decision and would've likely done the same.

 

It's telling that Ned Stark is biased against the Lannisters and is manipulated by the lies of Lysa and LF, nothing more.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

In the end, Tyrion has never had a good, trustworthy reputation. And the person 100% at fault for that is Tyrion.

Tyrion is in part at fault for his bad reputation at the end of ASOS by his actions in ACOK and later, but he is not really at fault for his previous reputation (only for the whoring part).

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The crime of 1) murdering the Queen, 2) manipulating the King into murdering the Queen and 3) dishonoring the very institution of all monarchies, not just the Westerosi one.

This is, of course, operating under the presumption that many people (including yourself but correct me if I am wrong) that the books will end like the show.

If the books will end like the show, Jon murdering Daenerys (in her own home, no less) at the behest of Tyrion would be an atrocity. Frankly, it'd be viewed as much worse than Daenerys losing her shit and deciding to raze King's Landing to the ground.

I don't believe it will happen. I think Dany will leave to Essos. Logistically, it's difficult to explain how (and why) would the Dothraki and Unsullied leave Westeros after Dany is betrayed and killed, they would wreak further havoc in the continent.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

And you're still not properly acknowledging the fact that kinslaying is beyond abominable. It doesn't matter how foul that person is; the rules of the ASOIAF series clearly state that such an act is both inexcusable and unconscionable. And for it to be his own father...Tywin is a terrible person and deserved to die but Tyrion is forever indebted Tywin. Not only that but Tyrion is Tywin 2.0

Many people in the series state it, but I don't think we ought to view Tywin's murder as inexcusable, that's Shae's murder.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Bloodraven, for all his ills and misdeeds, was also a decorated war hero and a successful Hand. Tyrion was a good Hand...but he wasn't that good. And nowhere near as successful as Bloodraven.

You know who else was a very successful Hand? Tywin Lannister, an bad man.

Ending the story with yet another bad Hand of questionable competency after a long line of bad or incompetent Hands is not good.

GRRM stated that he views Tyrion as the most competent ruler from all characters in the series, so I think it's not impossible. Tywin was bad because he put House Lannister's interest above the realm, Tyrion (at the end of ADOS) will not do this, I think he will even reject becoming Lord of Casterly Rock.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

No one who has survived the horrors of the War of the Five Kings, the Second Dance of the Dragons and the Second Long Night is going to want to have a man with Tyrion's track record in control at court! No one!

And for a dark horse like Bran (he's a sweetheart but face it...he'll be a bit creepy and it's going to take some time for the people of Westeros to adapt) to make that kind of appointment at the beginning of his reign (which will be disputed) would be an act of political suicide. Especially if he's also having a thieving deserter from the Citadel, a sellsword-turned-banker and a female "knight" on his Small Council...

 

We won't know Tyrion's acts during the Second 'Long Night', but it's possible he will contribute a lot to final victory. 

Besides, Bran being King also doesn't make much sense in the current context of the series, but GRRM is going to make it happen. Realistically, Bran wouldn't be first choice of the lords as King.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-important-plans-rickon-stark-2020-9

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/07/08/a-winter-garden/

GRRM never said that The Winds of Winter is going to be the darkest novel because it's the one where children die in droves. That's something you made up.

He said it's the darkest novel yet because a lot of its characters will be in very dark places. However, the ending of the series, as he has reiterated, will be bittersweet much like Lord of the Rings.

And frankly, Rickon is more useful to the story alive than dead. A succession crisis between Jon and Rickon with the question of what to do with Stannis and the Others looming in the background is very juicy...especially when you throw Sansa into the mix.

 

Yes, the ending will be bittersweet, but that's ADOS for you, not TWOW.

It's pretty much confirmed that children will be dying in droves: Tommen, Myrcella and Shireen are almost certain to die in this novel. Rickon would pretty much fit in.

A succession crisis between Jon and Rickon is essentially a choice between Jon and Stannis, and if Stannis both frees Winterfell and brings back Rickon, the Northern lords would almost certainly accept him as their King; if he fails in bringing back Rickon, they will probably prefer Jon (especially once he comes with an army of wildlings on WF as reinforcement, who definitely only follow Jon), and that's what makes sense from storytelling perspective (knowing that Jon is a main character and Stannis is not). 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

First of all: I too think KL will be a burnt, blasted ruin when all is said and done. I've always believed that it would happen before the end of the series (sometime in A Dream of Spring) but, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense for it to happen at the end of The Winds of Winter. It's as clear as day.

That said, the end of KL (as we know it at least) does mean the end of "the game of thrones."

 

I don't think it will literally end it, it will symbolize that the 'game of thrones' has to be (temporarily) put aside to fight against the Others.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Secondly, the end of KL does not mean the end of Connington, Aegon and the Martells. What was the point of bringing up Aegon and foreshadowing this war between "dragons light and dark, red and black with a lion snarling amidst them all" if half of that equation is going to be blown up before the other half of that equation can show up?!

Sometimes, losing a fight can be good for you and winning a fight can be the worst thing that ever happened to you. Aegon and the Martells winning the Iron Throne at the cost of pissing off millions of people and destroying King's Landing to the point where it is indefensible is a fitting conclusion to that storyline. What storyline? That of the Dornish vengeance. Two points have to be made in order for the story to stick its landing in a way that makes sense.

1. Vengeance may feel good in the short term (i.e. raping and murdering the lot of nobles and priests in King's Landing who were "complicit" in the rape and murder of their family members) and it may be justifiable but it is ultimately an evil that only invites more evil and hardship.
2. And it's besides the fact...Doran played the hand he was dealt poorly and waited way too late to cash in. His attempts to preserve life while also getting vengeance while also putting the Martells in power over the whole empire is going to do the exact opposite. You can't have it both ways.

Aegon and the Martells are a big part of the endgame. I don't think you realize how you are letting the showrunners (who clearly never cared to understand the story as it was, much less make a fitting adaptation for it) shape your perception of the story.

 

I don't see that Tyrion's passage necessarily foreshadows a dance between Targaryens, only that he interacts with them (and it's 6 'dragons', Dany, Aegon, Aemon, Jon and two others) and influences them, for example by causing Aegon to go west instead of east (which is a major decision).

If Aegon's campaign resulted in the blowing up of KL, it's difficult to see how he (the King who has taken KL) would avoid death, much less what chance would his side have against Dany in such scenario. 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Cersei Lannister is not going to be holding the Iron Throne while playing hard-to-get high school games with Euron Greyjoy when the Wall is breached and the Mother of Dragons makes landfall.

If not her, then who will be sitting the Throne when it happens? Stannis? It's extremely unlikely as time, space, logic and almost the entire continent is not on his side. Euron? More likely than Stannis but still unlikely to happen...at least, not yet. Jon Snow? Forget about it; no time and too far...somewhat more likely than Stannis. Myrcella or Tommen? Almost impossible but still more possible than Cersei and Jon Snow.

It has to be Aegon. And if it is Aegon, who will be his queen, who will sit on his council and who will be most present at court?

Only GRRM and God know exactly who they all will be but I think we can all safely bet money on the fact that Varys will be present, that at least one of the Martells will be in a position of great power, that Connington will have left a significant mark and that Daenerys will be excluded.

 

Who is going to sit on the Iron Throne when the Mother of Dragons arrives?

Maybe Euron, but probably nobody, because the Iron Throne ultimately doesn't matter. There was a scene in season 2 (when the showrunners still actively worked with GRRM) in the House of Undying that pretty much foreshadows this:

GRRM has previously compared the Iron Throne to the work of Ozymandias:

"This Iron Throne is scary. And not at all a comfortable seat, just as Aegon intended. Look on his works, ye mighty, and despair. "

and this scene is a parallel to the scene described in the Ozymandias poem (just with snow and ash instead of sand): Dany, the traveler from an antique land arrives to Westeros, but all she finds from the great Aegon's (Ozymandias's) work is the Iron Throne, and all around it is decay and colossal wreck (ash and snow coating the remains of the Red Keep). 

The rest of the scene is also telling: Dany - seeing how even the work of a great tyrant like Aegon turned to decay over time - rejects the Throne and turns her attentions North.

[kissdbyfire]

The show means nothing. It’s always meant nothing. And since there are no more R&R threads, I’ll share this new D&D gem here. Know what is the one regret the geniuses have about the show? 
NOT BRINGING MORD BACK.

Yup, that’s it, that’s their one regret, not the gazillion trillion fuck ups and idiotic things they’ve done. Nope, the one solitary regret, not bringing Mord back.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/game-of-thrones-showrunners-one-change-mord-1235785674/
 

 

Quote

Well … 

“One thing I know I wish we could have done is there’s the character Mord the Jailer,” Benioff says.

“It was a mistake not bringing Mord the Jailer back into it,” Weiss says. “We always talked about doing it.”

“And we had the scene for it,” Benioff says. “There’s a scene set in a tavern …” 

“Was it Brienne or The Hound?” Weiss says. “But we realized too late that Mord could have owned the tavern. We could have had that actor in the background acting exactly the way he did as a jailer, except now as a small-business owner. It was just such an obvious, no-brainer, day-after idea.”

 D&D, the gift that keeps on giving. JFC.

Edited January 20 by kissdbyfire

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The show means nothing. It’s always meant nothing. And since there are no more R&R threads, I’ll share this new D&D gem here. Know what is the one regret the geniuses have about the show? 
NOT BRINGING MORD BACK.

Yup, that’s it, that’s their one regret, not the gazillion trillion fuck ups and idiotic things they’ve done. Nope, the one solitary regret, not bringing Mord back.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/game-of-thrones-showrunners-one-change-mord-1235785674/
 

 

 D&D, the gift that keeps on giving. JFC.

Yes.  They’ve had nearly five years to reflect, and not making Mord an Innkeep is their one regret.

I’m amazed we actually got any good episodes at all, from this pair.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes.  They’ve had nearly five years to reflect, and not making Mord an Innkeep is their one regret.

I’m amazed we actually got any good episodes at all, from this pair.

The bold x 1 trillion. Seriously. Mord the “small-business owner” is what the show needed for sure.