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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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25 minutes ago, ToddDavid said:

Did you even read the first part of that paragraph?  I asked the rhetorical question: “Do you think that the beliefs & values of each of those murdered soldiers & slave owners were congruent with their ruler’s or the laws of their land? Of course not. There were plenty of innocents among them”.  

What happens to a slave owner or soldier who disobeys or fights the system? More than likely they die.  Not every individual was a representation of the evil she believed she was fighting. There were PLENTY of innocent lives among those  she mercilessly slaughtered.  Just bc they don’t have names or faces doesn’t change that fact.  Reread Jorah’s quote to Dany:

“It’s tempting to see your enemies as evil, all of them.... but there’s good & evil on both sides in every war ever fought. I wouldn’t be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the mastersof Yunkai”.

But who did she mercilessly slaughter? Enemy soldiers in battle? Tyrion, Ned, Robb and Jon did plenty of that. Or do you think there weren't plenty of decent lords and soldiers fighting for Aerys, Tywin, Stannis, Mance Rayder and the Boltons? 

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Just now, The One Who Kneels said:

And the masters who took no part in crucifying the slave children weren't part of the ruling body of Meereen that did decide to crucify slave children? Neither were bystanders even if they didn't commit the crimes itself. Daenerys didn't just randomly crucify some masters because they were her enemies it was specific retribution for a horrible crime. Could there have been a better way of trying to separate the culpable masters? Sure probably. But that's a far cry from a Mad Queen who goes around slaughtering anyone and everyone who opposes her. Why didn't she crucify all the masters in Meereen? 

Yes, it was a retribution against random people, with not even an attempt to find out any level of culpability or involvement or even support or non support.  I'm not sure why it seems so hard for people to understand that despotism comes on gradually.  They could have done a much better job with Dany, but the signs have always been there, the brutality, the randomness, the self righteousness has always been part of her character.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, it was a retribution against random people, with not even an attempt to find out any level of culpability or involvement or even support or non support.  I'm not sure why it seems so hard for people to understand that despotism comes on gradually.  They could have done a much better job with Dany, but the signs have always been there, the brutality, the randomness, the self righteousness has always been part of her character.

They weren't random targets. They were part of the ruling class of Meereen that decided to crucify slave children. 

Despotism does come on gradually and if this had been the start of Dany's slide into darkness it would've made total sense. But it wasn't. Daenerys ends the same season by locking up her dragons after Drogon kills one innocent child. She never goes down a slide to darkness and despotism. She literally just breaks at King's Landing and starts butchering common people, who she previously championed at every turn, by the hundreds of thousands. 

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12 minutes ago, Jon and Dany Targaryen said:

I surmised danys actions were all geared in part selfishly and for adoration for a long time now but the writers went overboard turning her into a pitiful and desperate creature in her interactions with jon and pushed her over the edge in having her lose everything but I still dont think this person would for no reason burn down a city. Without cause and for no  given plausible reason. Makes no sense. At least the made king has reason; hearing voices and insane. They pushed their plot rushing everything to an unrealistic close which few could have predicted in totality, which is what they were going for.

There is a "good" reason for her to do that... she simply despises Westeros.
On Essos she was freeing slaves, and slaves loved her for that, the worshipped her, they made her feel like she was a messiah... and then she came to Westeros, for all the wrong reasons, but in her head she was going to be their messiah too, they were going to love her... and they did not, because they saw her for what she was... troubles... fire and blood. She had nothing to offer to Westeros, until Jon came and told her about the threat from the north, so she went north, she lost a dragon, she lost a huge chunk of her army, and she was hoping the north would worship her like the salves in Essos for that... but they didn't... and they didn't have to, after all, Jaime also fought in the north, he didn't ask anyone to bend the knee, Sandor Clegane fought in the north tooo, and he didn't ask anyone to bend the knee, but Daenerys felt they all had to thank her for that. Yet, they didn't, worst, she didn't even kill the Night King, Arya did, and even worse Jon is the real heir to the Targaryen throne... all the lies she told herself, how the throne was hers were crumbling... and she lost Jorah Mormont, and she lost another dragon, and then she lost Missandeï... she realized that Westeros had been only desillusions after desillusions for her, and deep in her heart she started to hate Westeros... and when the bell rang, that hate, that anger had to come out... and that's why she did this

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Lolgotfan said:

Sure threatening to burn Qarth to the ground wasn't totally random either. You fanboys are ridiculous!!!

exactly, and actually she does worse than threatening to burn Qarth... she sacks the city at the end of season 2 (can't remember if it happens in the book too, but we're talking about the show here)...
what valid motive does she have to sack Qarth? none... yeah 2 guys from that city (Xaro Xoan Doxos and Pyat Pree) tried to steal her dragons, and the Spice King was not a very pleasant man, but that's about it, that does not justify sacking the city, there were probably hundreds if not thousands of dead peoples just because two and half guys were not very nice to her....

Edited by beeeeeen

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11 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

They weren't random targets. They were part of the ruling class of Meereen that decided to crucify slave children. 

Despotism does come on gradually and if this had been the start of Dany's slide into darkness it would've made total sense. But it wasn't. Daenerys ends the same season by locking up her dragons after Drogon kills one innocent child. She never goes down a slide to darkness and despotism. She literally just breaks at King's Landing and starts butchering common people, who she previously championed at every turn, by the hundreds of thousands. 

Another example where she punishes the innocent instead of the guilty, and another example of a massive overreaction that she did not think through....dragons are the source of her power, locking them up, especially not even the one who ate the child is dare I say, madness.

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Another example where she punishes the innocent instead of the guilty, and another example of a massive overreaction that she did not think through....dragons are the source of her power, locking them up, especially not even the one who ate the child is dare I say, madness.

If you think locking up dangerous animals because she's afraid of them harming innocents is proof of madness I guess Dany has been mad the whole time. 

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12 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

exactly, and actually she does worse than threatening to burn Qarth... she sacks the city at the end of season 2 (can't remember if it happens in the book too, but we're talking about the show here)...
what valid motive does she have to sack Qarth? none... yeah 2 guys from that city (Xaro Xoan Doxos and Pyat Pree) tried to steal her dragons, and the Spice King was not a very pleasant man, but that's about it, that does not justify sacking the city, there were probably hundreds if not thousands of dead peoples just because two and half guys were not very nice to her....

She never sacks Qarth in book or show. I think in the show she robs Xaro and leaves after sealing him in the vault. In the book she gets kicked out after she burns down the House of the Undying. 

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4 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

So when you kill people or order some people to be killed or get people killed for a cause you lead you're capable of killing any amount of people for no reason? Again that's not how the show has framed anyone including Daenerys until Episode 5 of this season. 

Citation needed. There are always innocent and good people serving bad causes that die in war. War sucks. Never before has presiding over just (or even unjust) wars been proof of madness. 

You say Ned wouldn't have duplicated those actions then you have Jorah talk about how Ned wanted to do to him what Daenerys wanted to do the masters of Yunkai. When Rickard Karstark murdered two children Robb had him and all the men who participated in (including a guy who just watched) executed. See any obvious parallels there with executing slave masters (including those who didn't actively take part) for executing slave children? You want to turn " sometimes ruthlessly dealt with enemies" into proof of madness or a willingness to kill anyone and that's not how its ever worked. 

 No I did not say that.  That was NOT Jorah’s quote.  He said that he wouldn’t be here if Ned HAD DONE TO HIM what Dany wants to do to Yunkai [which is slaughter them without mercy].  Jorah’s saying that he’s only alive bc Ned showed him mercy, and that Dany needs to show mercy too, which she f***ing mocks.  

Of course Rob Stark had the involved parties sentenced to death. They’re guilty of murder. There exists no parallel there whatsoever.  Rickard Karstark and his crew had a CHOICE. Nobody forced them to murder the Lannister boys.  They were actually sternly advised AGAINST IT.

Slave owners and soldiers OTOH don’t have choices.  They do what they’re told and act according to the laws of their land, regardless of their own beliefs or values. If they defy their ruler they die. If you’re born a slave owner then you’re a slave owner; there’s no alternative. We were reminded of this truism when Hizdahr told us about Dany murdering his father for being a slave owner when he was actually a great man who was against the practices she despised.  Then we were reminded yet again in S4E10 by a slave himself speaking compassionately about his master and said that there were many others who shared his sentiments. 

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1 minute ago, The One Who Kneels said:

If you think locking up dangerous animals because she's afraid of them harming innocents is proof of madness I guess Dany has been mad the whole time. 

She has no way of knowing for sure if the dragons did it and wasn t drogon that was acused of burning the child? Why punish the other 2 for something they didn t do?

And it was an extreme reaction….

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21 minutes ago, Lolgotfan said:

Sure threatening to burn Qarth to the ground wasn't totally random either. You fanboys are ridiculous!!!

Sure. Only a madwoman would scream threats at people who are about to leave her and her followers to die in a desert.

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4 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

She never sacks Qarth in book or show. I think in the show she robs Xaro and leaves after sealing him in the vault. In the book she gets kicked out after she burns down the House of the Undying. 

oh, my bad then, i rewatched the whole show recently, but i was working on my computer at the same time, i may have made bad assumption about this.

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6 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

If you think locking up dangerous animals because she's afraid of them harming innocents is proof of madness I guess Dany has been mad the whole time. 

It's proof of bad judgement and a tendency to overreact.  How did she think she was going to hold Meereen w/no dragons?  She already knows that when they were locked up in Westeros in a gigantic building they withered and died, but she chains them up anyway and then leaves them there to die, where they would have died or been poisoned except someone else freed them, and then, she's back to using them as her personal nuke force.  

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Just now, ToddDavid said:

 No I did not say that.  That was NOT Jorah’s quote.  He said that he wouldn’t be here if Ned HAD DONE TO HIM what Dany wants to do to Yunkai [which is slaughter them without mercy].  Jorah’s saying that he’s only alive bc Ned showed him mercy, and that Dany needs to show mercy too, which she f***ing mocks.  

Of course Rob Stark had the involved parties sentenced to death. They’re guilty of murder. There exists no parallel there whatsoever.  Rickard Karstark and his crew had a CHOICE. Nobody forced them to murder the Lannister boys.  They were actually sternly advised AGAINST IT.

Slave owners and soldiers OTOH don’t have choices.  They do what they’re told and act according to the laws of their land, regardless of their own beliefs or values. If they defy their ruler they die. If you’re born a slave owner then you’re a slave owner; there’s no alternative. We were reminded of this truism when Hizdahr told us about Dany murdering his father for being a slave owner when he was actually a great man who was against the practices she despised.  Then we were reminded yet again in S4E10 by a slave himself speaking compassionately about his master and said that there were many others who shared his sentiments. 

Ned didn't show Jorah mercy. He was going to execute Jorah but Jorah fled before Ned caught him. 

So the masters who ultimately sat by and watched while other masters crucified children are completely innocent but a random guy who gets pressed by his lord into being a lookout is thoroughly culpable of murder? 

And again why did you ignore my example of vassals and their men-at-arms who are forced to follow bad causes? If you're born a vassal of Tywin Lannister what excuse do you have when he (and the rightful King as far as you know) order you to round up your men and come fight for him against Robb? People who don't deserve it always die in war. I'm perfectly willing to concede that some innocent people were probably unnecessarily killed at Meereen but you're the one who claimed she slaughtered innocents by the thousands. Please point out where she did prior to King's Landing. 

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

She has no way of knowing for sure if the dragons did it and wasn t drogon that was acused of burning the child? Why punish the other 2 for something they didn t do?

And it was an extreme reaction….

When you don't let your two pit bulls roam the streets are you doing it to punish them or as a reasonable precaution? Particularly when there is reason to believe that another one of your dogs may have mauled a child to death? 

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's proof of bad judgement and a tendency to overreact.  How did she think she was going to hold Meereen w/no dragons?  She already knows that when they were locked up in Westeros in a gigantic building they withered and died, but she chains them up anyway and then leaves them there to die, where they would have died or been poisoned except someone else freed them, and then, she's back to using them as her personal nuke force.  

I don't think I've been arguing that Dany isn't capable of bad judgment. There's a lot of space between bad judgment and "of course she was always mad and/or the sort of person who would slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent commoners for no reason."

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22 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

exactly, and actually she does worse than threatening to burn Qarth... she sacks the city at the end of season 2 (can't remember if it happens in the book too, but we're talking about the show here)...
what valid motive does she have to sack Qarth? none... yeah 2 guys from that city (Xaro Xoan Doxos and Pyat Pree) tried to steal her dragons, and the Spice King was not a very pleasant man, but that's about it, that does not justify sacking the city, there were probably hundreds if not thousands of dead peoples just because two and half guys were not very nice to her....

No she didn't! She took the stuff form that one guys house in the show and that was it. If she had sacked the city she could have bought all the unsullied easy and all the ships she could have. In the book she gets kicked out of that guys house when she refuses to marry him and then joins up with sir barriston and..can't remember that guys name who brought three ships to take her to that guy in pentos who we saw at the beggining when he spent time with dany and her brother and set up her marriage to khal drogo.

 

She never sacks Qarth just that guys house who helped take her dragons to the warlocks and killed some of her people and tried to have her killed too.

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33 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

They weren't random targets. They were part of the ruling class of Meereen that decided to crucify slave children. 

Despotism does come on gradually and if this had been the start of Dany's slide into darkness it would've made total sense. But it wasn't. Daenerys ends the same season by locking up her dragons after Drogon kills one innocent child. She never goes down a slide to darkness and despotism. She literally just breaks at King's Landing and starts butchering common people, who she previously championed at every turn, by the hundreds of thousands. 

Right, she locked them up; she didn’t execute Drogon for killing an innocent little girl. Complete and utter hypocrite who kills when it serves her purpose and doesn’t when it serves her purpose.  

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Just now, ToddDavid said:

Right, she locked them up; she didn’t execute Drogon for killing an innocent little girl. Complete and utter hypocrite who kills when it serves her purpose and doesn’t when it serves her purpose.  

This may have slipped your notice but Drogon isn't a human being. He's a carnivorous animal. 

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