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Ydra Stark

Where did Jon go ? SPOILERS

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So the last scene we see is Jon riding off with the Wildlings to god knows where (prob to the regions they came from) but what does it mean ? 

Jon asks Tyrion if there is still a NW, because why would there be any ? The whole purpose of it was to protect the realm from Wildlings and WW. 

The NK is dead, The wildlings are cool with the Westerosi (At least with the Northmen, now that the North is independent). 

So does Jon riding off mean that he abandons the wall and go live with the wildlings ? Maybe as a new king-beyond-the-wall. If that is the case, then maybe it was the only thing Tyrion could return to Jon; His freedom in the place he truly belongs ‘The Real North’. 

Tyrion kinda set Jon up into killing Dany, and the only one who didn’t know anything about the function of the NW are the Unsullied. So maybe the Lords (who knew of Jon’s motive and true heritage) decided to send Jon to the wall, knowing there was no one there but the Wildlings. To give him the rest he deservers for saving the realm from a tyrant. 

 

What are your thoughts on this ? 

I would really like to know ! 

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My guess is Tyrion and Bran knew what Jon would do and gave him the chance to do it, because they felt he deserved peace after all he had done, and they wanted to make it look like they were punishing him for Grey Worm's benefit. (Why they didn't just tell Grey Work to piss off is beyond me, when "your queen" gets deposed you're just another prisoner of war and you don't get to demand justice or tell people what to do, especially if you helped her commit war crimes)

Tyrion's line "there will always need to be a place for bastards and broken things" was metaphorical, the writers' way of covering up for the fact that they had no good reason to introduce a new Night's Watch other than that the plot required it at that point, as shown by Jon immediately abandoning the Night's Watch after joining it.

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14 minutes ago, Darryk said:

 (Why they didn't just tell Grey Work to piss off is beyond me, when "your queen" gets deposed you're just another prisoner of war and you don't get to demand justice or tell people what to do, especially if you helped her commit war crimes)

Because even if their queen is dead, you still have like what, 50k? of the best trained soldiers in the whole continent/world on the doorstep? I'm not a scientist, just a hunch. 

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13 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Because even if their queen is dead, you still have like what, 50k? of the best trained soldiers in the whole continent/world on the doorstep? I'm not a scientist, just a hunch. 

Ah yes, I forgot they respawned after the Battle of Winterfell.

Of course, Sansa mentions that she also has thousands of Northmen.

I guess Davos and co. were really desperate to avoid yet more war, so they made Jon the sacrificial lamb. I can kind of buy that, although it's weird that  Sansa and Arya are super cool with it.

Would have been more poignant if Jon had made the decision to go the Wall himself in order to avoid more bloodshed, but then that would get in the way of the writer's attempts to completely strip the character of any agency this season.

 

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46 minutes ago, Darryk said:

My guess is Tyrion and Bran knew what Jon would do and gave him the chance to do it, because they felt he deserved peace after all he had done, and they wanted to make it look like they were punishing him for Grey Worm's benefit. (Why they didn't just tell Grey Work to piss off is beyond me, when "your queen" gets deposed you're just another prisoner of war and you don't get to demand justice or tell people what to do, especially if you helped her commit war crimes)

Tyrion's line "there will always need to be a place for bastards and broken things" was metaphorical, the writers' way of covering up for the fact that they had no good reason to introduce a new Night's Watch other than that the plot required it at that point, as shown by Jon immediately abandoning the Night's Watch after joining it.

i dont think Jon left the NW, we see Jon riding in to castle black, with only the Wildlings waiting for him. 
At that time he realises that there isn't a NW anymore, nor is it ever coming back. So he understands that is was 
The last offer of peace for him, given by Tyrion and Bran. he leaves Westeros with the Wildlings, to live with them. 
That was the plan of Tyrion and Bran all along. So Jon could live out his days free, and not to worry about politics or people wanting to follow him because he is in fact the rightfull heir. He would be a danger to democracy, not himself, but people wanting to follow him because he is a Targ. 

He is now with the wildlings, chilling out prob living as King beyond the Wall, and making love to some hot red haired girl with messy teeth. 

REDEMPTION FOR THE SAVER OF THE REALM.

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56 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Of course, Sansa mentions that she also has thousands of Northmen.

I guess Davos and co. were really desperate to avoid yet more war, so they made Jon the sacrificial lamb. I can kind of buy that, although it's weird that  Sansa and Arya are super cool with it.

Would have been more poignant if Jon had made the decision to go the Wall himself in order to avoid more bloodshed, but then that would get in the way of the writer's attempts to completely strip the character of any agency this season.

 

Yet, I'd put my money on the Dothraki + Unsullied. 

I'm pretty sure Sansa wanted to get rid of Jon anyways

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33 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Yet, I'd put my money on the Dothraki + Unsullied. 

I'm pretty sure Sansa wanted to get rid of Jon anyways

The same Dothraki who rode into an undead army and died?

Sansa wanted to get rid of Jon, eh? Maybe Bran as well. Bran and Sansa, playing the Game of Thrones all along. Wouldn't put it past the show at this point.

 

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1 hour ago, Darryk said:

The same Dothraki who rode into an undead army and died?

Sansa wanted to get rid of Jon, eh? Maybe Bran as well. Bran and Sansa, playing the Game of Thrones all along. Wouldn't put it past the show at this point.

 

They rode into an army of dead because they never faced them, and Melissandre gave them hope. 

But against mortals? 

Get rid of him as in, getting him away from her throne. She always wanted to be queen. 

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2 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

They rode into an army of dead because they never faced them, and Melissandre gave them hope. 

But against mortals? 

Get rid of him as in, getting him away from her throne. She always wanted to be queen. 

Well, they rode into an army of dead because they were commanded to (you really think it had anything to do with whether Mel showed up? They were positioned at the front of the army, so they were gonna do it anyway).

I'm not talking WHY they did it, I'm just saying they don't look particularly fearsome after riding into an army and dying. It was more of a joke, really. Obviously I realise they would be more effective against conventional opponents, although there's still the problem of there not being many of them left.

It's pointless discussing it anyway because the show makes up the rules as it goes along, considering all the Dothraki and most of the Unsullied were all supposed to be dead after episode 3 anyway, but magically respawned in episode 6. So how risky it would be for Sansa's army to fight them depends on how many magically respawned. 

My guess is the Dothraki and Unsullied are mostly in tatters (Dany didn't even need them to take King's Landing), and the remnants of the Northern and Vale armies could crush them.

But it's all besides the point, because it's clear from Davos' dialogue during the council scene that his motivation for trying to appease Grey Worm is that he doesn't want any more bloodshed, not that he's worried about Grey Worm's army.

I can SORT OF buy that as a character motivation, although now that I think about it, not really. Davos has been following Jon for a long time and Sansa and Arya are his family, so you'd think they'd have more loyalty, and not sell Jon down the river just to keep war criminal Grey Worm happy. 

By the way, why would the Dothraki even give a crap if the council sent Jon to the wall? They don't care about Westerosi customs, and as blood riders aren't they obligated to avenge their Khal?

Your theory regarding Sansa, that this was all some ploy to get rid of Jon...is no different from the theory that Bran is an evil Three Eyed Raven plotting mankind's downfall all along. It WOULD have been an interesting twist, but the show's done nothing to establish it, so really, it's just up in the air.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Ydra Stark said:

So the last scene we see is Jon riding off with the Wildlings to god knows where (prob to the regions they came from) but what does it mean ? 

He's in the Nights Watch. He arrives at Castle Black in Brown, with two Nightswatch men either side of him escorting him from Kings Landing. He's then changes into his black Nightswatchman uniform that he's not worn since he left the Watch.

The Watch exists, Jon has rejoined. If the show wanted to suggest that he'd gone to live with the Wildlings he'd either still be wearing his dark brown suit or wearing the grey/whites that the other Wildlings are wearing and they'd not focus the majority of his montage on the Castles at the Wall. They could simply show him living in a Wildling camp.

Quote

Jon asks Tyrion if there is still a NW, because why would there be any ? The whole purpose of it was to protect the realm from Wildlings and WW. 

The NK is dead, The wildlings are cool with the Westerosi (At least with the Northmen, now that the North is independent). 

Unless the Wildlings have abandoned their way of life then the Northmen and Wildlings are not 'cool'. The Northman have laws, the Wildlings don't and think everything is up for grabs. These are fundamentally two very different ways of life, they can no co-exist with both sides happy.

On top of that the Wildlings are made up of many clans, they are not one cohesive group. Some will remain on good terms with the Watch, others won't.

And the Others were thought dead thousands of years ago and they returned. Westeros would be pretty stupid to ignore that threat.

The Nights Watch still exists, perhaps rebuilding their defences, training new recruits and further exploring the Lands of  Winter for clues on who and what the Others were are going to be the Watch's main prerogative's in the future, but they are still needed.

Quote

So does Jon riding off mean that he abandons the wall and go live with the wildlings ?

No. In a 10 second montage they deliberately have him change clothes into his Night watch uniform and repeat his iconic (from seasons past) leaving the Wall via the tunnels on a mission.

If they wanted to suggest that he's abandoned the Watch they'd simply not spend his entire montage associating him with the Watch.

Plus Jon is Ned's son. He made a vow, unless his family or the world is in danger he's not going to break it. Not after just arriving. Especially as it betrays his character, he feels guilt over killing Dany. He has not tried to fight his punishment. Jon is in Kings Landing as he watches the Unsullied leave, if his intention was not to accept his punishment he'd either be at Wintefell or chill at Duskendale before returning to Kings Landing.

Quote

Tyrion kinda set Jon up into killing Dany, and the only one who didn’t know anything about the function of the NW are the Unsullied. So maybe the Lords (who knew of Jon’s motive and true heritage) decided to send Jon to the wall, knowing there was no one there but the Wildlings.

The Wildlings are still enemies. If they had changed their ways they'd not be returning beyond the Wall, they'd be repopulating the Umber lands, the Gift, even the Wall itself.  The North lost tens of thousands of people, they need the population boost and the land is obviously better in the North than beyond the Wall. They've returned home and returned to their old way of life and that way of life is illegal in the Kingdoms South of the Wall.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Posted (edited)

The council scene was ridiculous but when engaged viewers begin to pull at individual threads, it becomes a mess.  

Either the council was saving Jon or punishing him.  

FOR EXAMPLE, 
Sansa knew what he wanted (how?) or Sansa wanted him gone cuz he would become King of something at the expense of her queen ambitions.  Then why, at the very last goodbye did Sansa say "we did everything we could".  We didn't hear her do anything so ....

Arya knew what he wanted (how?) or she wanted him gone because he didn't want to be King.  Then why, at the last goodbye, did she say absolutely nothing about his fate.

Bran knew what Jon wanted (the only one who could really know) or he wanted him gone because he, Bran, wanted/intended/would be King.  Then why, at the last goodbye, did he say that Jon was always exactly where he was supposed to be, so Bran used Jon. 

Davos said nothing good about Jon.

Jon left Castle Black, or he left to escort the FreeFolk home, and would be right back.  No way to know.  In my head, Jon was championed by no one at the meeting, so he leaves castle black to live his best life with his friend and his dog.  Want to disagree?  Just read the post before mine.  The show gives us no help at all.  Re: the clothing change, I just thought Jon put on his warmer cloak.  I cannot image he has been to J Crew lately.

Edited by lakin1013

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Posted (edited)

In the books about 3000 wildlings pass through Castle Black. Maybe 5000 remain at Hardhome. Maybe another 5000 at the Bridge of Skulls.

To be generous, let’s say 10k in total end up on this side of the Wall. Then the Others invade and the Great War starts. How many do you reckon survive by the end of the War? 1000? That’s barely a viable seed population. And will take centuries to even repopulate the Lands Beyond the Wall, if ever.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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2 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

The council scene was ridiculous but when engaged viewers begin to pull at individual threads, it becomes a mess.  

Either the council was saving Jon or punishing him.  

FOR EXAMPLE, 
Sansa knew what he wanted (how?) or Sansa wanted him gone cuz he would become King of something at the expense of her queen ambitions.  Then why, at the very last goodbye did Sansa say "we did everything we could".  We didn't hear her do anything so ....

Arya knew what he wanted (how?) or she wanted him gone because he didn't want to be King.  Then why, at the last goodbye, did she say absolutely nothing about his fate.

Bran knew what Jon wanted (the only one who could really know) or he wanted him gone because he, Bran, wanted/intended/would be King.  Then why, at the last goodbye, did he say that Jon was always exactly where he was supposed to be, so Bran used Jon. 

Davos said nothing good about Jon.

Jon left Castle Black, or he left to escort the FreeFolk home, and would be right back.  No way to know.  In my head, Jon was championed by no one at the meeting, so he leaves castle black to live his best life with his friend and his dog.  Want to disagree?  Just read the post before mine.  The show gives us no help at all.  Re: the clothing change, I just thought Jon put on his warmer cloak.  I cannot image he has been to J Crew lately.

I kind of feel like this the same way, he was set up killing Dany, and no one defended him at the council. Not even Tyrion ! He became the Hand, while he was as guilty as Jon was. 

 

Jon is chilling out with his friends and Wolf. There is no NW. Where are the other brothers ? In Castle Black we only see Wildlings. If there would still be a NW we would see more members, and if Jon escorts the Wildlings, wouldn’t he be joined by other rangers ? I never saw any Brother ride behind the wall alone. 

 

How could Jon change in Wildling clothes ? Maybe he doesnt have any. 

 

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I've been gone for a long time as I was strictly a book reader, but after I gave up avoiding spoilers I decided to watch the show.

Can I use evidence from the books to suggest what happened to Jon? I believe I have a clue, but I couldn't really find the FAQ or Rules. The only FAQ link I could find is broken.

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9 hours ago, Darryk said:

(Why they didn't just tell Grey Work to piss off is beyond me, when "your queen" gets deposed you're just another prisoner of war and you don't get to demand justice or tell people what to do, especially if you helped her commit war crimes)

The Unsullied weren't the only ones pissed off with Jon. Other factions like the Iron Islands were also not happy with him. Many of the other lords as well wouldn't have understood the full extent of what Jon did and would just figure him to be a Queenslayer who deserves punishment.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Ser Greg of House House said:

I've been gone for a long time as I was strictly a book reader, but after I gave up avoiding spoilers I decided to watch the show.

Can I use evidence from the books to suggest what happened to Jon? I believe I have a clue, but I couldn't really find the FAQ or Rules. The only FAQ link I could find is broken.

Yup, especially if it says "spoilers" on top of a thread. You're just not allowed to mention the show in the book section of the forum. If you wish to discuss books AND show, you must do it in the show section of the forum, and that's where you are posting, so all good. :)

Edited by sweetsunray

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37 minutes ago, Ydra Stark said:

There is no NW. Where are the other brothers ? In Castle Black we only see Wildlings. If there would still be a NW we would see more members, and if Jon escorts the Wildlings, wouldn’t he be joined by other rangers ? I never saw any Brother ride behind the wall alone. 

There were a few NW brothers in black, amongst the gathered wildlings at Castle Black. There were like 10 or something. He rides out as a "ranger" really, just never to come back. The NW brothers don't have a problem with him being there or leaving.

Wildlings don't "own land", don't have "crowns" (or kings normally), and they don't "wed" Westerosi style (whether Northern or southern style). So by living amongst the free folk, Jon keeps NW vows.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, especially if it says "spoilers" on top of a thread. You're just not allowed to mention the show in the book section of the forum. If you wish to discuss books AND show, you must do it in the show section of the forum, and that's where you are posting, so all good. :)

Ok, then!

There's a bit piece of foreshadowing that I've always thought was fitting for Jon's eventual ending, and the title "A Dream of Spring" is a dead giveway IMO.

Jon's chapter in A Storm of Swords:

"His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his Uncle Benjen believed that the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on"

After the finale, I'm convinced that Jon will use Castle Black as headquarters for this "dream for spring", attracting new settlers to the North. The Watch is no more, there are few wildlings, so Jon will basically become a marcher lord. A higher lord, sworn to Sansa, but founding his own House, with lesser lords sworn to him. Something like the Dorne of the North.

He's the perfect man for the job, and certainly Sansa would see the sense in strengthening her kingdom now they're independent.
 

Edited by Ser Greg of House House

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4 minutes ago, Ser Greg of House House said:

Ok, then!

There's a bit piece of foreshadowing that I've always thought was fitting for Jon's eventual ending, and the title "A Dream of Spring" is a dead giveway IMO.

Jon's chapter in A Storm of Swords:

"His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his Uncle Benjen believed that the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on"

After the finale, I'm convinced that Jon use Castle Black as headquarters for this "dream for spring", attracting new settlers to the North. The Watch is no more, there are few wildlings, so Jon will basically become a marcher lord. He's the perfect man for the job, and certainly Sansa would see the sense in strengthening her kingdom now they're independent.
 

I think that is the endgame of the wildlings and jon will be responsable for it.

I have serious doubs about sansa becoming qitn. To me she will be lady of the vale (which isn t that diferent in show logic)...

While jon basically stays responsable for a very savage and magical north. Between the wildlings, clansmen, skagosi, cragnonmen, Giants, cotf(?), iron born (those that stay in the north) sounds like a place for jon...

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1 minute ago, divica said:

I think that is the endgame of the wildlings and jon will be responsable for it.

I have serious doubs about sansa becoming qitn. To me she will be lady of the vale (which isn t that diferent in show logic)...

 While jon basically stays responsable for a very savage and magical north. Between the wildlings, clansmen, skagosi, cragnonmen, Giants, cotf(?), iron born (those that stay in the north) sounds like a place for jon...

Yeah, I'm not completely sold on Sansa as a queen, but if you go back to GRRM's fascination with dances of dragons including Dornish-supported challengers, it does set up the pieces for future wolves to do their own dances.

After Bran's gone, Jon's and Sansa's children, particularly if they get married, would have a strong claim to King's Landing. Yet I doubt the other Houses would like to be ruled from Winterfell...

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