Is Rhaegar and Lyanna's secret marriage truly valid for Targ Iron Throne Succession?

[Br16]

In many monarchies, royal marriages are only valid for royal succession with Sovereign or parliamentary approval. For example, British royals need the Queen's approval or give a 1 year notice to the Privy Council, and Netherlands royalty lose their succession rights if they marry without States-General consent. Considering that GRRM based ASOIAF on real world European monarchies, this rule of crown approval could be an implied in-world legal element.

Thus, considering that Aerys II and his Small Council were not informed by Rhaegar of this unconventional secret marriage, does Jon Snow really have succession rights to the Iron Throne?

Could Jon be stuck in a weird gray area where he is sort of true born (i.e. High Septon conducted marriage) but without succession rights like the British royals who marriages were religiously valid but legally invalid as they happened without crown permission?

[legba11]

The show never been interested in telling that story so we have no idea.  Likely, GRRM is interested in telling this story and it will be part of the conflict in ADOS between Dany and Aegon (whoever actually is Aegon).  It may even be where Sam returns to the main storyline with some precedent from history.

[Loge]

Well, the Targs are different. European monarchs may marry their cousins, but not their sisters. Obviously some document would have to be produced to confirm the marriage. Aerys might have excluded Jon from the succession if he had lived but that's besides the point. Right now Targaryen princes are rather short in supply,  so if there is to be a restoration Jon is as good a candidate for the throne as it gets. Even as a bastard he might be legitimised and named heir. This is what Robb Stark seems to have done.

[Apoplexy]

He is clearly legitimate in the show, although I expect the books to explain more in detail.

[Br16]

9 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He is clearly legitimate in the show, although I expect the books to explain more in detail.

The show seems to be going for a simple explanation (i.e. High Septon okayed it so it's okay) instead of exploring the complicated legalese to avoid confusion and wasting time. However, the book already has some interesting precedents:

1) Duncan Targaryen had to renounce his Prince of Dragonstone title after the Aegon V and Council refused to recognize his marriage to Jenny of Oldstones as crown succession valid, but allowed them to remain within a socially and religiously valid marriage.

2) Aegon V felt he could not break up Jaehaerys and Shaera's secret consummated marriage despite he wanting  to end the custom of incest.

Thus, these two precedents seem to imply that if the show were to follow book logic, the King needs to assent on whether a marriage is crown succession valid or not, and that a consummated marriage cannot be annulled.

This would make HBO Rhaegar's High Septon issued annulment very unorthodox considering his consummated marriage to Elia Martell, and the lack of Aerys II approval means there is not the required Crown recognition for the Lyanna marriage to be succession valid.

Another user (SFDanny) said that Rhaegar planned to win at Trident and overthrow Aerys in order to,  as new king, recognize his Lyanna marriage and Elia annulment as crown valid. However, since both he and Aerys died, there remains no Targaryen Crown Authority to either recognize Jon's parent's marriage or legitimize him beyond doubt.

So it seems Jon is stuck in Limbo, unless extraordinary events causes him into some sort of William and Mary type joint rule with Daenerys, although that seems to be what Young Griff wants as Harry Strickland in the book says it's important that Young Griff gets Dany on his side or he won't have verifiable legitimacy. 

[Loge]

Well, Duncan the Small married a commoner. Lyanna is not only noble but from one of the great Houses. Even as a bastard he would be great bastard, both parents being noble and one even a royal. As for the succession, there is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, which makes no sense if Jon was just a bastard. They should have been with Viserys.

[Areisius]

His annulment never happened so he never couldn't have legally married Lyanna. I think it was all for show and he was playing Lyanna the whole time. Rhaegar is a piece of shit IMO.

[Br16]

1 hour ago, Areisius said:

His annulment never happened so he never couldn't have legally married Lyanna. I think it was all for show and he was playing Lyanna the whole time. Rhaegar is a piece of shit IMO.

I agree that his conduct was outrageous, he not only publicly humiliated Elia after the tourney by not naming her the Queen of Love and Beauty, he also insulted Dorne by conducting his affair with Lyanna in their jurisdiction and then accepting their 10,000 spearmen for the Trident. However, the annulment (which can't be legal in my mind) does happen in the Show when Sam read about it in High Septon Maynard's archived diary. Rhagear likely forced Maynard (who also officiated his secret ceremony) to do it.

1 hour ago, Loge said:

Well, Duncan the Small married a commoner. Lyanna is not only noble but from one of the great Houses. Even as a bastard he would be great bastard, both parents being noble and one even a royal. As for the succession, there is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, which makes no sense if Jon was just a bastard. They should have been with Viserys.

It appears that very little time passed between the Trident, Aerys II death and Ned showing up at the Tower of Joy. So the Kings Guard were probably in an information vacuum with only Rhaegar's old order to go on. Moreover, they were probably banking on Rhaegar getting the royal assent problem smoothed out with some royal decree from Aerys and that the decree would be brought to them soon, perhaps, even a decree skipping Elia's son and naming Jon heir, making them unwilling to abandon their posts. 

 

[Loge]

1 minute ago, Br16 said:

It appears that very little time passed between the Trident, Aerys II death and Ned showing up at the Tower of Joy. So the Kings Guard were probably in an information vacuum with only Rhaegar's old order to go on. Moreover, they were probably banking on Rhaegar getting the royal assent problem smoothed out with some royal decree from Aerys and that the decree would be brought to them soon., making them unwilling to abandon their posts. 

 

It took Ned some time to get to the ToJ, he had to end the siege of Storms end first. And the Kingsguard knew what had happened. 

Quote

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your Queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”"

 

[Br16]

14 minutes ago, Loge said:

It took Ned some time to get to the ToJ, he had to end the siege of Storms end first. And the Kingsguard knew what had happened. 

 

Perhaps, I always interpreted the Storms End lifting as a walkover because Mace was weak and incompetent.

The passage you cited seems to suggest that The KG were only informed when Ned talked, as no KG offered any information, they just gave a tough response each time Ned revealed.

My opinion is that as far as KG is concerned, a Royal Decree making Jon the heir and Lyanna a Royal Consort could arrive at anytime (maybe Rhaegar promised them before he left), so they stood their ground (because Lyanna can't travel), and especially considering that Dragonstone was safe with the fleet and loyalists. 

[Loge]

Actually, their answers imply that they weren't at the ToJ the whole time. They were "far away." Looks like they arrived there just ahead of Ned. And their dismissal of Ned's suggestion that they should be guarding Viserys shows that they don't regard him as the heir to the throne. And they definitely knew what had happened at the Trident.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

3 hours ago, Br16 said:

So it seems Jon is stuck in Limbo, unless extraordinary events causes him into some sort of William and Mary type joint rule with Daenerys, although that seems to be what Young Griff wants as Harry Strickland in the book says it's important that Young Griff gets Dany on his side or he won't have verifiable legitimacy

 

2 hours ago, Loge said:

As for the succession, there is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, which makes no sense if Jon was just a bastard. They should have been with Viserys

 

2 hours ago, Areisius said:

. I think it was all for show and he was playing Lyanna the whole time. Rhaegar is a piece of shit IMO.

If you combine all three of these and add Maester Aemon's worries about how their discussions on omens and prophecies did a number on an otherwise reputedly nice and decent individual?

Rhaegar's obsession with the comet and the 'dragon has three heads' thing was driving him mad. Lets admit he truly did love Lyanna, but that love was also useful to his ambitions in answering the Pact of Ice and Fire.

He was completelly sure he would win at the Trident. And afterwards he would be able to revert his father’s decisions regarding the line of succession. He even convinced a few of the KG, his friends, to, in action if not vow, defect from the King's service and 'technically' follow only the orders of the Prince of Dragonstone. I don't think we're told anything about Aerys truly stripping him of the title,  though once the war was done he might've as the next logical step.

[Br16]

On 6/1/2019 at 3:15 PM, Loge said:

Actually, their answers imply that they weren't at the ToJ the whole time. They were "far away." Looks like they arrived there just ahead of Ned. And their dismissal of Ned's suggestion that they should be guarding Viserys shows that they don't regard him as the heir to the throne. And they definitely knew what had happened at the Trident.

I feel that "far away" meant "We were far away from KL here at ToJ, so Aerys II death wasn't our fault". Especially considering that Ser Gerold followed that statement with "Or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells". 

 IIRC,  Hightower were sent to find and fetch Rhaegar after the rebellion got out of hand, and Rhaegar ordered KG to stay as he left to mobilize the Royal Armies. So perhaps he promised them that a Royal Decree would be forthcoming and they only need to wait, and so they stayed put. 

On 6/1/2019 at 3:25 PM, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

 

 

If you combine all three of these and add Maester Aemon's worries about how their discussions on omens and prophecies did a number on an otherwise reputedly nice and decent individual?

Rhaegar's obsession with the comet and the 'dragon has three heads' thing was driving him mad. Lets admit he truly did love Lyanna, but that love was also useful to his ambitions in answering the Pact of Ice and Fire.

Good point, it was probably half love, half ambition, both fiery passions that wouldn't be out of place in a Targaryen. 

[SeanF]

A secret annulment and secret marriage would be unlikely to be valid in real life.  Marriages always have to be performed before witnesses (even if they are private marriages) precisely so you don't have someone turning up claiming to be the legitimate son or daughter of a deceased monarch or crown prince.

Unless Aerys II had sanctioned the annulment and remarriage, it could not be considered valid by any Targaryen loyalist.  And, we know that he did not.  After Rhaegar was killed, he made Viserys his heir and Viserys made Danaerys his heir.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

1 hour ago, Br16 said:

Perhaps, I always interpreted the Storms End lifting as a walkover because Mace was weak and incompetent

I thought it was Tarly at the head of the siege? I was under the impression it was one of the things he was 'respected' for.

[Br16]

Just now, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I thought it was Tarly at the head of the siege? I was under the impression it was one of the things he was 'respected' for.

I read that it was Mace and Paxter, with Mace commanding the bloated land forces and Paxter conducting the naval blockade. I think Tarly made his name by defeating Robert at Ashford.

[Br16]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

A secret annulment and secret marriage would be unlikely to be valid in real life.  Marriages always have to be performed before witnesses (even if they are private marriages) precisely so you don't have someone turning up claiming to be the legitimate son or daughter of a deceased monarch or crown prince.

Unless Aerys II had sanctioned the annulment and remarriage, it could not be considered valid by any Targaryen loyalist.  And, we know that he did not.  After Rhaegar was killed, he made Viserys his heir and Viserys made Danaerys his heir.

I agree with your assessment about witnesses, and it was certainly within Aerys' royal power to designate Viserys heir. However, after the Dance of Dragons, there seems to have been a Great Council precedent (which I take to be the same as constitutional convention) that no woman Targaryen could take the Iron Throne as long as there was a man who could legally and without question bear the Targaryen name who is still alive. And that no man can inherit through the female line.

I believe the lack of royal assent by a crowned and recognized Targaryen Sovereign recognizing Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage makes their marriage invalid and Jon could not bear the Targaryen name. 

I also believe that Young Griff is an imposter and a Blackfyre.

So unless surprising evidence comes up, my conclusion is that Dany remains heir presumptive and not heir apparent, as Visery's naming of Dany as his heir could be overridden by legal convention if a legit and confirmed Targ Prince should show up. However, if another great council were to override that rule (which shouldn't be hard when you have dragons), Viserys naming of Dany as heir would allow her to triumph over any other real or potential claim and be heir apparent.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

Another hint at how obsessed he was is indeed how he acted towards Elia.

As long as Aegon was heir and Elia Queen to be? My guess is Doran 'Long game' Martell would stomach Rhaegar's dalliance. Oberyn might hate his guts for sidelining his little sister so obviously, but even he would accept that theirs was not a love match.

If he'd prevailed at the Trident? And everything gone according to his 'plan'? His life expectancy would be lesser than a mayfly's. 

What about that stunt of calling a half Dornish, half Targaryen princess 'Rhaenys'? Wtf. Was that supposed to be 'conciliatory'?!

Oh you sweet summer child...

 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

1 hour ago, Br16 said:

I read that it was Mace and Paxter, with Mace commanding the bloated land forces and Paxter conducting the naval blockade. I think Tarly made his name by defeating Robert at Ashford.

Ok. Makes more sense even imo.

[SeanF]

40 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Another hint at how obsessed he was is indeed how he acted towards Elia.

As long as Aegon was heir and Elia Queen to be? My guess is Doran 'Long game' Martell would stomach Rhaegar's dalliance. Oberyn might hate his guts for sidelining his little sister so obviously, but even he would accept that theirs was not a love match.

If he'd prevailed at the Trident? And everything gone according to his 'plan'? His life expectancy would be lesser than a mayfly's. 

What about that stunt of calling a half Dornish, half Targaryen princess 'Rhaenys'? Wtf. Was that supposed to be 'conciliatory'?!

Oh you sweet summer child...

 

One's judgement on Rhaegar has to be provisional, pending completion of the series.  His treatment of Elia seems pretty shitty, but one point in his favour is that he was told by Maesters that another pregnancy would kill his wife.  So, that was a decent motive for ending sexual relations  with her, unlike Aegon IV, who simply didn't care that he could kill his sister-wife.