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Black Crow

Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I wonder if Qyburn is from Qaarth.  It seems he can pull off something of a glamour himself.  He creates a 'seeming' with Jaime, an inoffensive fellow with brown eyes.  Or it may be that his eyes are brown but Cersei sees bold blue eyes, that remind her of someone.  For her he is the 'grandfatherly' type.

If not from Qarth, I wonder if Qyburn hasn't at least studied in Qarth. He makes note that before he lost his maester's chain, Marwyn was the only person at the citadel that appreciated his work. So, perhaps when Qyburn was kicked out of the citadel, he either traveled with Marwyn (MMD tells us she studied with a Maester called Marwyn, in Asshai, I think) or followed in his path at least. And when he was ready to return to Westeros, he did it as part of a sellsword group, the Brave Companions. We see this with Quentyn and Co, joining a sellsword organization as a means of finding a source of travel, so perhaps this is duplicated in Qyburn. The eye color change has always seemed odd to me, and wonder if this is similar to Val's change in eye color? Is that a glamour? Qyburn might remind Jaime of a grandfather, but when he is torturing the blue bard, there is nothing very grandfatherly about that! Or with what he is doing with all those women! Creepy Qyburn!

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GRRM has confessed to inconsistent eye colour in the past - referring as I recall to Val

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52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He leaves the Jade Compendium for Jon with a specific passage he wants him to read.  What am I missing?

I wouldn't say you're missing a thing.  I would just point out that the only time Aemon explicitly brings up AA, it's to Jon, to have him read myths. 

Never, in speculating about the PtwP, does he bring up AA, and he never thinks of Dany as AA.

32 minutes ago, redriver said:

Of course Dawn was forged on the ground and in Westeros.I was referring to the comet or meteorite that brought the material it was forged with,likely visible all over Essos and likely generating its own local myths.

OK, let's picture that.  A meteor falls in the middle of Westeros. 

Later, myths emerge that say a magical sword was forged from the fallen meteor. 

Lynn is positing that that sword was both Dawn and Lightbringer.  We know the AA myth is about how Lightbringer was forged.

So where did the myth come from?

We'd expect that myth to emerge from people in Westeros, who found the meteor and thus know the meteor led to a sword.  So we'd think the tales of how Lightbringer was forged would have a Westerosi character.

But the myths of AA forging the sword really don't seem Westerosi in character at all.

Of course, if Lightbringer ≠ Dawn, then the AA myth about how Lightbringer/Dawn was forged simply doesn't matter.  But I was responding to Lynn, whose premise was that Lightbringer = Dawn.

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48 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is our description of Marwyn:

The description of Marwyn's facial hair has always reminded me of Green Man imagery. My friend has a green man mask hanging in her yard, and my first read, Marwyn made me think of that mask. Large head, hair sprouting from nose and ears. (my friends mask as foliage from the mouth, too) Then we hear about Marwyn's hands a couple of times, and while they are certainly not green, they are large and brought to our attention. Perhaps a nod to the Gardener sigil? The bull's neck is not necessarily"horned god" imagery, but most bulls have horns and the Horned God is often connected to the Green Man. Also, the red mouth from the sour leaf, perhaps is a nod to sacrifice and blood in the mouth. Perhaps Marwyn's imagery is more Garth Greenhand than his son Garth the Gardener, since Garth Greenhand was known to be both benevolent yet demand sacrifice?

I'm thinking that if Urrathon Night-Walker is Marwyn that he is linked to the Goodbrothers of Old Wyk since he has that connection to the Reader.  Why send anything to him at all?  Quaithe specifically says that there is talk about the glass candles in Urrathon's house.  The prologue of FFC includes much talk about Marwyn and his candles.  Marwyn is not the name he was born with since maesters give up their names and take another, to hide their previous identity. 

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17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has confessed to inconsistent eye colour in the past - referring as I recall to Val

I can accept that he messed up with Val, but Qyburn, not so much. 

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40 minutes ago, St Daga said:

If not from Qarth, I wonder if Qyburn hasn't at least studied in Qarth. He makes note that before he lost his maester's chain, Marwyn was the only person at the citadel that appreciated his work. So, perhaps when Qyburn was kicked out of the citadel, he either traveled with Marwyn (MMD tells us she studied with a Maester called Marwyn, in Asshai, I think) or followed in his path at least. And when he was ready to return to Westeros, he did it as part of a sellsword group, the Brave Companions. We see this with Quentyn and Co, joining a sellsword organization as a means of finding a source of travel, so perhaps this is duplicated in Qyburn. The eye color change has always seemed odd to me, and wonder if this is similar to Val's change in eye color? Is that a glamour? Qyburn might remind Jaime of a grandfather, but when he is torturing the blue bard, there is nothing very grandfatherly about that! Or with what he is doing with all those women! Creepy Qyburn!

Yes, we don't really know when Marwyn went on his 'mapping' expedition and Qyburn does praise him for his studies in sorcery.  I'm not so sure Marwyn knew what Qyburn was doing to the living; but if he did, well that puts a bit of creep onto Marwyn as well.  It might also be possible that Marwyn met Qyburn on his travels and brought him back to the Citadel.  We don't actually know when Qyburn was unchained and banished.  But it does seem rather timely given the events that follow.  Perhaps he wasn't dismissed as placed somewhere else.

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21 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has confessed to inconsistent eye colour in the past - referring as I recall to Val

Next thing he confesses to have been inconsistent with Jon Snow's parentage ...

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1 minute ago, alienarea said:

Next thing he confesses to have been inconsistent with Jon Snow's parentage ...

Oh snap!  hahahahahahahah1

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, redriver said:

Or they happened in the heavens where everyone one can see,interpret and build myths upon.Like in the real world.

I do see what you mean.  Also, it's not unheard of for different factions or religious group to claim a hero for their own.  I'm inclined to think that the AAR prophecy is a mash-up of different prophecies. 

Mel starts with this:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Pale flames licked at the grey sky. Dark smoke rose, twisting and curling. When the wind pushed it toward them,Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"
It then changes to:
Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R'hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well."
This seems more to do with the PwiP prophecy if the prince is reborn the day a comet appears. 
Mel is tacking on her own religious fanaticism and claiming the hero for R'hllor in both cases.   The first prophecy says nothing about waking dragons from stone.  It specifically says when the stars bleed and this brings to mind the seven pointed red star badge of the Poor Fellows.  So this prophecy also seems to be giving a timeframe.
I think the first iteration has more to do with the Dawn Sword than the second.  Stripping away all Mel's garbage though.
Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JNR said:

So where did the myth come from?

We'd expect that myth to emerge from people in Westeros, who found the meteor and thus know the meteor led to a sword.  So we'd think the tales of how Lightbringer was forged would have a Westerosi character.

But the myths of AA forging the sword really don't seem Westerosi in character at all.

I would revisit one prospect I've considered in the past: that perhaps the tale did not travel eastward orally, but through dreams and visions, since this is a world where one can experience visions and farsight through a variety of means (Shade of the Evening, fires, green dreams, glass candles, etc.) For example, the Red Wedding appears in symbolic form in the HotU, even though the real event occurs half a world away.

As a hypothetical, the true event would be the Last Hero slaying the Others with Dawn, which appears in the dreams and visions of seers in the east in non-literal form--eg, a seer in Asshai has a vision of a figure with a burning sword fighting "the darkness," and those visions spawn the myth of Azor Ahai, with various cultures putting their personal spin on the myth.

Edited by Matthew.

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

I wouldn't say you're missing a thing.  I would just point out that the only time Aemon explicitly brings up AA, it's to Jon, to have him read myths. 

Never, in speculating about the PtwP, does he bring up AA, and he never thinks of Dany as AA.

And conversely Aemon Targaryen very forcefully identifies Jon Snow as a son of Winterfell, whose duty is to defend the Wall - "it must be you or no-one" 

 

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40 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I would revisit one prospect I've considered in the past: that perhaps the tale did not travel eastward orally, but through dreams and visions, since this is a world where one can experience visions and farsight through a variety of means (Shade of the Evening, fires, green dreams, glass candles, etc.) For example, the Red Wedding appears in symbolic form in the HotU, even though the real event occurs half a world away.

As a hypothetical, the true event would be the Last Hero slaying the Others with Dawn, which appears in the dreams and visions of seers in the east in non-literal form--eg, a seer in Asshai has a vision of a figure with a burning sword fighting "the darkness," and those visions spawn the myth of Azor Ahai, with various cultures putting their personal spin on the myth.

This is very possible.I would still tend to think there was at least one global comet event,that being known as the Hammer of the Waters in Westerosi legend.A combination of visions,terrestrial and celestial events mix in the confusion of myths and prophecies we have through to Valyria and Asshai. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, JNR said:

How, in the heavens, would Dawn have been forged? 

I think he's referencing the stories that have been made up about constellations. I can think of two in particular. The first is about Orion's Belt and the other is the Native American story about the Big Dipper with relation to the Devil's Tower.

In ASOIAF the Moonmaiden constellation is brought up more than once with its story about the Red Wanderer stealing a maiden. It's quite possible that Azor Ahai is another story about a constellation and not an actual person. Meteors can look like fiery dragons falling from the sky and the arc of the flame could be described as a flaming sword.

3 hours ago, St Daga said:
LynnS said:

Marwyn has been sending rare books to the Reader for some time.

I think the evidence is very suggestive of a connection between the Ironborn and Marwyn. Rodrik Harlaw aka "the Reader" is Asha and Theon's uncle and brother-in-law to Balon. Hartho Harlaw brings Rodrik one of Marwyn's books, Book of Lost Books, to try and curry favor, because he wants Rodrik to marry his daughter so that she would inherit Ten Towers, but Rodrik wants Asha to inherit - she refused it though. Hartho obviously thought Rodrik would be pleased to receive the book, so there does seem to be a solid connection there.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has confessed to inconsistent eye colour in the past - referring as I recall to Val

Did it reference Val specifically. I know he has confessed that Renly's eye color (green v blue) was a mistake, but I didn't know that he addressed Val or Qyburn specifically.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm thinking that if Urrathon Night-Walker is Marwyn that he is linked to the Goodbrothers of Old Wyk since he has that connection to the Reader.  Why send anything to him at all?  Quaithe specifically says that there is talk about the glass candles in Urrathon's house.  The prologue of FFC includes much talk about Marwyn and his candles.  Marwyn is not the name he was born with since maesters give up their names and take another, to hide their previous identity. 

I read the text as Urrathon's house is in Qarth, but if it's actually in Old Town, then I guess it could be Marwyn. I guess in my head canon I expect that Urrathon Night-walker is Euron, or at least tied to Euron. Of course, that's just personal preference...

However, I don't think that Maester's give up their first name, only their last name. We have Maester Aemon who was Aemon Targaryen, and Maester Walys who was born Walys Flowers. Maybe they can change their name but I don't think they have too.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It might also be possible that Marwyn met Qyburn on his travels and brought him back to the Citadel.

This is not an option I have ever considered, but it's certainly possible.

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30 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Hartho obviously thought Rodrik would be pleased to receive the book, so there does seem to be a solid connection there.

Well, I think Rodrik has a firm reputation for liking books, and probably the rarer the better. He is Rodrik the Reader, after all. People know he has an interest in books.  Just to curry favor, it makes sense that Hartho would attempt this. Of course, Marwyn could certainly be from the Iron Islands, I am just not sure this book connection is enough to convince me.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I would revisit one prospect I've considered in the past: that perhaps the tale did not travel eastward orally, but through dreams and visions

This seems like a strong possibility to me too.  

In GRRMworld, a prophet can live anywhere, and can have a vision of any event at any time... and thus, causality in this world doesn't have to work like causality in our world.  (It can, but it doesn't have to.)

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

And conversely Aemon Targaryen very forcefully identifies Jon Snow as a son of Winterfell, whose duty is to defend the Wall - "it must be you or no-one" 

Sure.  It's conceivable to me that a son of Winterfell could also be AAR and that Maester Aemon could realize it. 

I'm sure some would object on the grounds of symbolism: a burning blade is on the "fire" side, whereas a son of Winterfell is on the "ice" side.  

But I just see it in practical terms.  A man skillfully wielding a burning blade could obliterate huge numbers of wights and would probably be a serious threat to Popsicles.   Jon could be that man.

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Next thing he confesses to have been inconsistent with Jon Snow's parentage ...

That would be a way of letting the RLJ zealots down gently, I guess.  :D

Meaning, GRRM could lie, and claim he meant to do RLJ, but then changed his mind at the last minute.  And that's why it wasn't their fault that they got even the most basic premises completely wrong.

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

 

Sure.  It's conceivable to me that a son of Winterfell could also be AAR and that Maester Aemon could realize it. 

 

Ah, you misunderstand me. What I meant was that far from identifying Jon as the Prince that was Promised, Aemon Targaryen identified him first and foremost as a son of Winterfell, with a role of his own.

Sure its possible for them to be one and the same but I've always read that passage as GRRM telling us that Jon's importance lies in his being a Stark of Winterfell rather than a reincarnated oriental super-hero.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I read the text as Urrathon's house is in Qarth, but if it's actually in Old Town, then I guess it could be Marwyn. I guess in my head canon I expect that Urrathon Night-walker is Euron, or at least tied to Euron. Of course, that's just personal preference...

I always made the assumption as well and I have tried to come up with some explanation that makes Euron into Urrathon because he is the 'badbrother'.  There is the business of a faceless man, with crow on his shoulder, tossing Balon Greyjoy off a bridge.  That same faceless man ends up closeted with Marwyn on Sam's arrival.  Is Marwyn involved with Balon's and Pate's death in some way? Something tells me that Marwyn knows the FM in this case.  Which would make Marwyn the 'badbrother' and Euron his ally.

I just think that some glass candles burning in some house in Qaarth doesn't make a good connection to Euron.  What we do have are candles burning in Marwyn's quarters and a lot of talk about it among the acolytes.

Quaithe meant it as a warning and now Marwyn is on his way to Dany.  I think he is likely to be a dangerous friend especially since he didn't warn anyone in Oldtown about Euron's longships beforehand.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, you misunderstand me. What I meant was that far from identifying Jon as the Prince that was Promised, Aemon Targaryen identified him first and foremost as a son of Winterfell, with a role of his own.

Sure its possible for them to be one and the same but I've always read that passage as GRRM telling us that Jon's importance lies in his being a Stark of Winterfell rather than a reincarnated oriental super-hero.

You misunderstand me, too.  I've never thought AAR and PtwP are the same entity, and I've also never thought Jon is a Targ (as the PtwP is certainly supposed to be).

The "son of Winterfell" quote you reference also doesn't have Aemon suggesting very much, after all:

Quote

"Yes, Jon. It need not be for long. Only until such time as the garrison returns. Donal chose you, and Qhorin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward. You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one. The Wall is yours, Jon Snow."

GRRM is careful to ensure his characters say things that reflect their own interests, knowledge level, motivations, etc. 

And here, Aemon evidently wants Jon to assume command temporarily, because Jon has more clout... because of all the five different reasons Aemon cites.

So while it may turn out that Jon being a son of Winterfell means he can play no other role in addition to that, I think he probably will. 

Edited by JNR

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On to Dance with Dragons reread now.  It seems that one must be born amidst salt and smoke but reborn of blood and fire.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen. When I sent ships to bring her home, she turned toward Slaver's Bay. In a short span of days she conquered Astapor, made Yunkai bend the knee, and sacked Meereen. Mantarys will be next, if she marches west along the old Valyrian roads. If she comes by sea, well … her fleet must take on food and water at Volantis."

 

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