Mel & Shireen

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire I am basing it on this:

He images Val primarily as a mother and caregiver. Her other qualities as anything but a mother never get a place in his imagination. This is what I mean with writing Jon a fanfiction. Jon disregards her personality in order to make his fantasy work. He's behaving like Sansa did with both Willas and Joffrey. He's projecting his idea of the perfect lady wife onto Val and when she steps out of that fantasy Jon is both surprised and disturbed by it. His reaction on Val's thoughts on Shireen is the perfect example. Personally I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Val helps Melidandre in burning Shireen. 

That is, of course, assuming that Val will even wait long enough for Melisandre to burn her. Val has wanted to kill Shireen for quite a while now and she is not alone in that desire.

Personally, I think Selyse and her Queen's Men will take it upon themselves to burn Shireen (after hearing about the horrible weather conditions or Stannis' struggles on the battlefield) which would horrify Melisandre and Stannis both. Melisandre may come to see it as a natural consequence of her actions but Stannis is too inflexible to be able to say "I'm ultimately at fault for this."

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. Well at least we don't think it did. Maybe he would have died if she hadn't burned them to help him? She burns people not of Kings blood at other times but she knows or believes they don't have King's blood. I'm wondering if the "power" is all in the belief. What if she burns someone with King's blood but doesn't know they have King's blood? Will that make the sacrifice more powerful? Or vice versa burning someone she thinks has kings blood but doesn't will that make the spell less powerful? Or is it just all up to what she believes. 

If it is all up to what she believes then I would suggest King's blood isn't needed at all. Mel just needs to believe. 

I think the “there’s power in a king’s blood” is bollocks. Not fully, though, and that’s the catch. After all, we do know magic is a thing, it exists. We also know there’s no recipes for spells and such, because Martin said so himself. And that alone negates the notion that a king’s blood can achieve this or that. So, I think that when magical things happen, when spells and sorceries and such do work, it’s because of a combination of factors that make it possible for such event to happen. But people (in universe) need to understand or explain these things, and that’s the origin of these beliefs. This is, of course, a very condensed and short way of trying to explain what I mean, but I’m feeling super lazy and have a cat sleeping on my arms making it almost impossible for me to type.

 

[Elegant Woes]

31 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But you are ignoring every other instance where he thinks about Val... yes, in the quote you provided he does create a little idyllic  fanfic in his head. It’s called daydreaming, and I do it at least twice a day every day.

 

I am not ignoring the other instances he thinks of Val, it's just in that specific quote that Jon thinks of her in the most romantic light and he shapes her into this domestic wife that doesn't exist. The other times he thinks of her is about how beautiful she is. Even in that warrior princess quote Jon is more describing what Val is like rather than showing attraction to it. This makes me wonder where the idea that Jon likes only Warrior women comes from? If anything Jon has a thing for singers. It's Ygritte's low singing voice that 'stirred' something in him and it's her desire for violence that turned him off in the end. 

[Jon The Dragon]

Jon seems to be a man of ginger tastes

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I am not ignoring the other instances he thinks of Val, it's just in that specific quote that Jon thinks of her in the most romantic light and he shapes her into this domestic wife that doesn't exist. The other times he thinks of her is about how beautiful she is. Even in that warrior princess quote Jon is more describing what Val is like rather than showing attraction to it. This makes me wonder where the idea that Jon likes only Warrior women comes from? If anything Jon has a thing for singers. It's Ygritte's low singing voice that 'stirred' something in him and it's her desire for violence that turned him off in the end. 

Again, I disagree completely. But I know where you’re coming from, and we both know we will never see eye-to-eye on this. But we will learn more about Jon’s love life eventually.

 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Jon seems to be a man of ginger tastes

Jon's a bushman of the Kalahari.

[Elegant Woes]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, I disagree completely. But I know where you’re coming from, and we both know we will never see eye-to-eye on this. But we will learn more about Jon’s love life eventually.

 

We may agree to disagree on certain things, but at least we can come together as Jon fans who want him to have a happy ending in the end 

[Elegant Woes]

12 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Jon seems to be a man of ginger tastes

When did he show interest towards redheads besides Ygritte?

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

When did he show interest towards redheads besides Ygritte?

Romantic interest? Never. However he does acknowledge that Mel is a beautiful woman.

 

[Jon The Dragon]

25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Jon's a bushman of the Kalahari

 

19 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

When did he show interest towards redheads besides Ygritte

The line kissed by fire seems to come up a little bit. I assumed it might be showing what he likes. Plus Sansa has red hair, that could be a future thing for him. Dont know how likely that is though.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Plus Sansa has red hair, that could be a future thing for him.

Yikes. 

2 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Dont know how likely that is though.

Not likely in ASoIaF at all. 

[Jon The Dragon]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not likely in ASoIaF at all. 

GRRM was going to get Jon and Arya together in his outlines for the books. I think that could possibly have changed to be Sansa. Stranger things have happened in this story. Sansa does seem to like a guy who looked similar to Jon, can't remember who, and gets excited when she hears his name.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Jon The Dragon said:

GRRM was going to get Jon and Arya together in his outlines for the books. I think that could possibly have changed to be Sansa. Stranger things have happened in this story. Sansa does seem to like a guy who looked similar to Jon, can't remember who, and gets excited when she hears his name.

You mean the outline Martin said he was just making shit up (literally) b/c his publishers or whoever kept asking for one? The outline where Cersei didn’t exist yet? The Cersei who was later created as the non-Targ character who has a very toxic incestuous relationship w/ her brother? That outline?

[Elegant Woes]

19 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

 

The line kissed by fire seems to come up a little bit. I assumed it might be showing what he likes. Plus Sansa has red hair, that could be a future thing for him. Dont know how likely that is though.

I actually do think something will happen between them. Surprisingly there's quite a lot of hints towards them. The 'fire in hair' was introduced a book earlier before Ygritte was introduced. 

Quote

They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her. - AGOT, Arya I.

Jon for moment thought that Melisandre was Ygritte because of her red hair when he met her. I think this is a foreshadow towards a much bigger confusion in TWOW once Jon has been resurrected and possibly forgotten parts of his past. If he meets Sansa he might confuse her for Ygritte because of her red hair and/or her singing. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

Surprisingly there's quite a lot of hints towards them.

No, there aren’t. 

Anyways, Jonsa is totally off topic here, thank the Old Gods. 

Back to Mel and Shireen anyone?

 

[Jon The Dragon]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

You mean the outline Martin said he was just making shit up (literally) b/c his publishers or whoever kept asking for one? The outline where Cersei didn’t exist yet? The Cersei who was later created as the non-Targ character who has a very toxic incestuous relationship w/ her brother? That outline?

If that's how it was then I've been told! haha, I only read that passage once. The possibility is there though, GRRM can get anyone together with anyone in his books, no one's off limits, look at the amount of incest that happens. I'd think that would only happen after he finds out his identity. If it happens at all.

[Jon The Dragon]

Would Wun Wun try to protect Shireen? They seem to like eachother.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Jon The Dragon said:

Would Wun Wun try to protect Shireen? They seem to like eachother.

It’s hard to get a good idea for the timeline of events following Jon’s stabbing. But if he is in a position to do so, he might? I mean, say the QM are dragging a screaming Shireen towards a bonfire, and Wun wun is right there...

 

[Elegant Woes]

@kissdbyfire George also said he didn't like it when his original outline was leaked. Sure a couple of things did change, but that doesn't mean everything was thrown out in the current outline. Especially when things show other wise. Jon is, according to the text itself, Sansa's only hero. 

I agree with you, this is a topic about Melisandre and Shireen we should keep it that way 

[Elegant Woes]

This might be a controversial statement, but why do people assume Stannis wouldn't be part of Shireen's burning? I mean we were introduced to Stannis setting his family members on fire in ACOK. He was, again, ready to do the same in ASOS to Edric Storm. This time, however, there won't be a Davos to talk him out of it. He's away to Skagos and things are looking too well for Stannis in that Theon chapter sample. If things come crashing down he might be desperate enough to burn Shireen.