Mel & Shireen

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

I always thought that was to do with Aegon, the potential false king. He's Aegon because we say he is.

It is for Varys, but Varys' words are a thematic reminder by George on power for other arcs as well. Mel's take on power aligns well with Varys's, except she doesn't mind using magic for it, whereas Varys abhors magic. But ultimately they want people to "believe" in their chosen candidate to give power to.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think he's both attracted and repelled by her.

He finds her an "attractive woman", but that's not the same as having the hots for her, because that's Val for Jon.

[Jon The Dragon]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If anyone is a candidate for Nissa Nissa, I think it would be Melisandre

I remember when I first read the passage about Nissa Nissa, I was fully on the Dany hype train back then and was pretty gutted thinking it could of meant her. Jon does think Mel smells of a furnace though so you are probably right. It will be out of Dany and Mel for that imo.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She did spend the whole of ADWD stalking him, and he will likely be full of gratitude towards her for reviving him.

And, she does have sex with powerful men, in order to create her shadows.  She could just take advantage while he was unconscious.

I don’t think Jon will need reviving, I don’t think he will die. I think she is drawn to him but doesn’t fully understand why yet. And that’s b/c she can be thick as a castle wall and so biased that she doesn’t comprehend her own visions.

8 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

I always thought that was to do with Aegon, the potential false king. He's Aegon because we say he is.

I always thought that is to do w/ human nature in general. 

8 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Nissa Nissa?

Nissa Nissa was killed to forge a sword, or so the stories and prophecies say. Assuming that it’s all true, including the fact that it is an actual sword and not a metaphorical one, well, the sword has been forged already. Why must it be forged again? Why can’t it be found? 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He finds her an "attractive woman", but that's not the same as having the hots for her, because that's Val for Jon.

This. Jon thinks she is a beautiful woman but is not attracted to her in any way. Much the contrary, in fact. IMO.

[Elegant Woes]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He finds her an "attractive woman", but that's not the same as having the hots for her, because that's Val for Jon.

I think it's debatable whether Jon really has the 'hots' for Val. Sure Val appeals to him because of how motherly she's with Gilly's and Dalla's babies and because she could have been his wife if he took Stannis proposal. However even then he's writing a fanfiction of her as his ideal lady rather than seeing her for the person she is. 

But beyond that I agree. Jon can see that someone is beautiful and still not be attracted to that person. I mean look at his thoughts about Cersei. 

[Jon The Dragon]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I always thought that is to do w/ human nature in general. 

Very true, we do live in that world unfortunately.

 

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nissa Nissa was killed to forge a sword, or so the stories and prophecies say. Assuming that it’s all true, including the fact that it is an actual sword and not a metaphorical one, well, the sword has been forged already. Why must it be forged again? Why can’t it be found? 

I've never thought about that. How about Dawn?

Go to Dorne, collect Dawn, bring the Dawn

[Elegant Woes]

Who says the sword of morning is the light bringer? I actually believe Ice is the real light bringer. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

31 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She did spend the whole of ADWD stalking him, and he will likely be full of gratitude towards her for reviving him.

I doubt he'll feel any sort of gratitude towards her, especially if she uses Shireen to bring him back.

"Only a monster would give a living child to the flames."

This is what Jon thinks of Stannis and Melisandre when he thinks about them burning Mance's son.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I think it's debatable whether Jon really has the 'hots' for Val. Sure Val appeals to him because of how motherly she's with Gilly's and Dalla's babies and because she could have been his wife if he took Stannis proposal. However even then he's writing a fanfiction of her as his ideal lady rather than seeing her for the person she is. 

I wholeheartedly disagree. He very clearly is attracted to her. Whether he or she will act on it, remains to be seen.

ASoS

“Val looked at him with pale grey eyes. “He always climbed too fast.” She was as fair as he’d remembered, slender, full-breasted, graceful even at rest, with high sharp cheekbones and a thick braid of honey-colored hair that fell to her waist.”

—-

“You are fond of this Val?”
“I scarcely know her.”
“They tell me she is comely.”
“Very,” Jon admitted.”

—-

“Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder’s queen, but still . . . 
I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms.”

—-

ADwD

“Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.”

—-

There are plenty more, like the one where Jon “steals” Val... and I have no idea why you say he’s creating a fanfic about Val? He isn’t, and you can see how at first he acknowledges her beauty but says/thinks he doesn’t even know her that well, and then they grow closer and his attraction to her becomes more and more obvious. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If she was considering to burn Mance's son, apparently it's enough that someone is named a king, even though their blood is that of a "mudblood". I don't think the genetics is important here. It could be anyone's blood, but there is power in the belief of many in one man or woman to lead them as a nation. The sacrifice of that blood or his or her descendants has an impact on the people for whom the burning is performed. We know Mel uses "effects" even though they're silly powder color tricks. She wants people to believe or fuel their belief. And maybe Mel herself believes it. She's very tropey in her beliefs: Azor Ahai, the hero, must be a king for example.

Right. The only thing I can think that makes the blood "Kings blood" is the belief that is it. So, if Mel burned Gilly's baby thinking it was Mance's would that still work? As long as Mel believes the baby she is burning has Kings blood?

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Very true, we do live in that world unfortunately.

Yup. Sad but true. 

18 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

I've never thought about that. How about Dawn?

Go to Dorne, collect Dawn, bring the Dawn

Dawn, Ice, or a metaphorical sword, like the dragons or even the NW itself. We will soon find out.

 

[Jon The Dragon]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We will soon find out

Soon being the magic word  we can hope

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think the title confers the king's blood. 

Jon's thoughts about Mance Rayder's king's blood are pretty funny, actually. 

"Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery."
"Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King's blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It's nonsense. Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He's a brigand, nothing more. There's no power in brigand's blood." (24-Sam I, AFfC 5)

So it really doesn't seem to matter what a man's humble beginnings are.

Yeah. That's what I mean. It's so confusing. Mance is not really a King in the westerosi sense. People do follow him though. But that can't be the prerequisite for their blood having power because no one has ever followed Mance's baby or Edric Storm & Mel certainly thought Edric's blood had power. The only stipulation seems to be that the person doing the magic believes the person to be or come from a King. 

So, for instance (as I said to Sweet Sunray) If Mel burns Gilly's baby but believes she is burning Mance's does the magic work? 

 

As I was rereading this I realized even though people haven't followed Mance's baby or Edric they did follow their fathers & the children have the same blood. So maybe the thing that makes someone a King is that people follow them? But then that leads me into how many people must follow you in order for you to be considered a king? People follow Lady StoneHeart atm but I wouldn't call her a Queen/King. 

It's just a conundrum to me  lol 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Soon being the magic word  we can hope

Think positive, always!

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So, for instance (as I said to Sweet Sunray) If Mel burns Gilly's baby but believes she is burning Mance's does the magic work? 

I think there's an example of her burning men during the Battle of the Blackwater, Guncer Sunglass and the Rambtons. If she did it in the hopes that it would help Stannis win at the Blackwater, well it didn't.

[Elegant Woes]

@kissdbyfire I am basing it on this:

Quote

Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We’d find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He images Val primarily as a mother and caregiver. Her other qualities as anything but a mother never get a place in his imagination. This is what I mean with writing Jon a fanfiction. Jon disregards her personality in order to make his fantasy work. He's behaving like Sansa did with both Willas and Joffrey. He's projecting his idea of the perfect lady wife onto Val and when she steps out of that fantasy Jon is both surprised and disturbed by it. His reaction on Val's thoughts on Shireen is the perfect example. Personally I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Val helps Melidandre in burning Shireen. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire I am basing it on this:

He images Val primarily as a mother and caregiver. Her other qualities as anything but a mother never get a place in his imagination. This is what I mean with writing Jon a fanfiction. Jon disregards her personality in order to make his fantasy work. He's behaving like Sansa did with both Willas and Joffrey. He's projecting his idea of the perfect lady wife onto Val and when she steps out of that fantasy Jon is both surprised and disturbed by it. His reaction on Val's thoughts on Shireen is the perfect example. Personally I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Val helps Melidandre in burning Shireen. 

But you are ignoring every other instance where he thinks about Val... yes, in the quote you provided he does create a little idyllic  fanfic in his head. It’s called daydreaming, and I do it at least twice a day every day.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think there's an example of her burning men during the Battle of the Blackwater, Guncer Sunglass and the Rambtons. If she did it in the hopes that it would help Stannis win at the Blackwater, well it didn't.

Right. Well at least we don't think it did. Maybe he would have died if she hadn't burned them to help him? She burns people not of Kings blood at other times but she knows or believes they don't have King's blood. I'm wondering if the "power" is all in the belief. What if she burns someone with King's blood but doesn't know they have King's blood? Will that make the sacrifice more powerful? Or vice versa burning someone she thinks has kings blood but doesn't will that make the spell less powerful? Or is it just all up to what she believes. 

If it is all up to what she believes then I would suggest King's blood isn't needed at all. Mel just needs to believe. 

[Jon The Dragon]

What if she doesn't need to burn Shireen but does anyway, words seem to bring back Beric each time with no sacrifice.