Theory - Lyanna got pregnant in Harrenhal?

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As a bastard, Jon is not a threat to Robb’s inheritance, something Cat knows full well. Even more nonsensical is for Ned to create a lie to eliminate a non-issue, while creating one that is much worse, namely, that he fathered a son after being married to Cat. 

Except that Cat is very much concerned about it, because bastards can always  be legitimized.  She points out this very fact to Robb when she brings up the case of Daemon Blackfyre

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

There is nothing in the text pointing to Jon being “much smaller” in height than Robb. The two have very different body types, w/ Jon being slender and Robb muscular, but that has nothing at all to do w/ height. 

 

How close in age were Aemon and Monster? If memory serves, Monster was born first before Sam and Gilly escaped from the white walkers and wights. Dalla gave birth while Stannis's army attacked. Monster is smaller than Aemon even though he's older, and nobody seemed to notice that Jon did a baby swap. Jon made a point of saying that Aemon was more robust, but thinks to himself in a chapter later:

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Gilly's boy was older, Dalla's more robust, but they were close enough in age and size so that no one who did not know them well would be able to easily tell one from the other.

"Slender" could make someone older appear younger than someone "muscular". Monster's smaller build disguised his age and I think it's plausible that Jon's described build could also disguise an older age.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, slender x robust means nothing height-wise. One can be slender and taller, the other robust (stocky, muscular) and shorter. Also, I always took the bastards grow up faster to mean they mature faster, you know, b/c they kinda have to. Not that they literally grow and develop faster physically than trueborn children. 

It could be interpreted that way also, but again, it's plausible that Luwin's intention was to alleviate Catelyn's fears that Robb would be first to inherit.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As a bastard, Jon is not a threat to Robb’s inheritance, something Cat knows full well. Even more nonsensical is for Ned to create a lie to eliminate a non-issue, while creating one that is much worse, namely, that he fathered a son after being married to Cat. 

Bastard sons are legitimized in Westeros all the time. 

[frenin]

33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Heh, the other thought that popped in my head, is that she may have seen the entire thing acted out in one of the playhouses in Braavos.  After all, it didn't take them long to reenact the events of the Purple Wedding.  

Then they would've told us right?? Dany only talks about Viserys.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

You're completely missing the point. Nowhere does she explicitely state hearing from anyone that Ashara is Jon's mother. Either she did but did not state it among the rumours, or she jumped to a conclusion, just like you do. THAT is what is not clear. Just as it's not clear whether the gossipers were just innocently dronning information, implying their own conclusions, or outright telling their lady "they say your husband had a thing for AD".

 

I'm not, i just think you're splitting hairs to not face the obvious conclussions, Cat starts by saying that Ned wouldn't talk about the mother, then inmediately says but a castle has no secrets and she starts talking about Ashara Dayne,  she didn't explicitely state that she was dead, are we to believe that she didn't know she was?? And we both the rumours outright talked about the romance between those two, the rumours Cat hears and the rumours Harwin hears are the same, same source and same location.

Cat only gives us the presentation of Ashara but she's clearly liking those rumours with Jon.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I know it was Harwin. Harwin, not Cat, and the account of rumours that Cat gives does not include HH.

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Are we to believe that Harwin and Cat lived in parallalel dimensions?? Because if they didn't, the rumours Harwin listened are the same rumours Cat heard, both of them lived in the same place and the source would've been the exact same.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

If they did, Sansa wouldn't have overheard that Jon's mother was commonborn.

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Hardly, Sansa was born after Asara's name was banned from Winterell and besides, Sansa don't say where she overheard that, it could perfectly be one of his father's bannermen, who said it, hell it could even be Robert and his court.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sadly, it is never stated that Ned came back from Starfall with a kid, and even if he did, it is not stated his people knew.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I mean... Jon was born in Dorne, Wylla was Jon's wetnurse, is that necessary?? We can sum 2 and 2.

How could his people not know it?? Why would Ned hide his bastard in the way to Winterfell??

[Frey family reunion]

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

Then they would've told us right?? Dany only talks about Viserys.

I don’t think it’s necessary.  I think we can make the presumption that this is a very well publicized event.

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The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

Even in a Essos, and especially in Braavos, the battle between Robert and Rhaegar should have been very well known.  And the story is that it was a war started over the love of Lady Lyanna.  The Targaryen side believes it was a love between Lyanna and Rhaegar while the north portrays Robert as getting vengeance on Rhaegar for kidnapping and raping the woman he loved.  Dany couldn’t have been completely insulated from the singers tales.

And usually when presented with this scenario, both versions are untrue.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t think it’s necessary.  I think we can make the presumption that this is a very well publicized event.

Even in a Essos, and especially in Braavos, the battle between Robert and Rhaegar should have been very well known.  And the story is that it was a war started over the love of Lady Lyanna.  The Targaryen side believes it was a love between Lyanna and Rhaegar while the north portrays Robert as getting vengeance on Rhaegar for kidnapping and raping the woman he loved.  Dany couldn’t have been completely insulated from the singers tales.

Usually when presented with this scenario, both versions are usually untrue.

How so?? Dany is not from Westeros so there is really no singer she could rely to and anything she talks is Viserys all over it, why didn't she heard the sweet little songs the singers dedicated to her father??

I think it's just to very convenient to rule out the obvious conclussion, Dany heard the story either from Viserys or from Darry.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, frenin said:

How so?? Dany is not from Westeros so there is really no singer she could rely to and anything she talks is Viserys all over it, why didn't she heard the sweet little songs the singers dedicated to her father??

I think it's just to very convenient to rule out the obvious conclussion, Dany heard the story either from Viserys or from Darry.

It seems doubtful that the singers tales would have stopped at the narrow sea.  Dany just hears the tales, and the romantic nature of the Rhaegar and Lyanna doomed love affair resonates to her, and she then fantasies about Daario playing the part of Rhaegar and carrying her away from the selfish people who are forcing her into a loveless marriage.

I mean the very thing is kind of happening to her.  Only it is her sense of duty to Meereen that is forcing her hand in marrying someone she doesn’t love.  It’s a Young girl’s fantasy spurred on by singers tales.

A very tenuous thing to try and draw factual conclusions from IMO.

[Ygrain]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'm not, i just think you're splitting hairs

It's called analysis. If a statement is left vague, you cannot assume it means just one thing because you might be overlooking other options. There is a certain discrepancy between what Cat lists and what she asks. It may be just an omission of the obvious, or it may be intentional and illustrate how people jump to conclusions with incomplete information. Kinda like an explanation how people like Cersei, who definitely wasn't anywhere near any reliable source of information, throws in Ashara's name, because Ashara had a baby, committed suicide after Ned's visit, and Ned now has a baby. 

And honestly, as I hinted above: I really don't see the maids being so bold as to discuss in front of their lady who her husband might have slept with. They might be implying it, with that emphasis on Ashara's physical description (unlike her brother, whom one would expect to be more interesting for young girls, dead or not), for Cat to draw an obvious conclusion, but this is in no way certain. And it is in no way certain that it was the gossip itself, and not Cat in her hurt and jealousy, who put the emphasis on Ashara's beauty.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

to not face the obvious conclussions, Cat starts by saying that Ned wouldn't talk about the mother, then inmediately says but a castle has no secrets and she starts talking about Ashara Dayne,  she didn't explicitely state that she was dead, are we to believe that she didn't know she was?? And we both the rumours outright talked about the romance between those two, the rumours Cat hears and the rumours Harwin hears are the same, same source and same location.

Cat only gives us the presentation of Ashara but she's clearly liking those rumours with Jon.

 

 

Are we to believe that Harwin and Cat lived in parallalel dimensions?? Because if they didn't, the rumours Harwin listened are the same rumours Cat heard, both of them lived in the same place and the source would've been the exact same.

The fact that they were at the same location doesn't mean they had access to the same whispers. Arya has absolutely no idea who Jon's mother might be, Sansa heard about a common woman, Cat knows whispers about Ashara Dayne but never indicates any knowledge of the HH romance or a common woman (she thinks that if it wasn't Ashara, she has no idea who it might have been)

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Hardly, Sansa was born after Asara's name was banned from Winterell and besides, Sansa don't say where she overheard that, it could perfectly be one of his father's bannermen, who said it, hell it could even be Robert and his court.

Nonsense. It couldn't have been Robert because it would be a new information to Sansa and she wouldn't just casually mention it like she does. She names her source as "people whispered", which really doesn't sound like lord X gossiping with lord Y (and why would they be having this discussion under their liege's roof, anyway). Winterfell servants is the most plausible source.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

I mean... Jon was born in Dorne, Wylla was Jon's wetnurse, is that necessary?? We can sum 2 and 2.

We can because we know about Lyanna's bed of blood at ToJ. No-one in-world ever mentions knowing that Jon was from Dorne. The one person outside Starfall who knows about Wylla as Jon's mother is Robert. The name of Jon's wetnurse at Winterfell is never stated, it may have been someone else, someone having no idea where Jon was from.

Also, it makes sense that this is not common knowledge because if people knew that Jon was from Dorne, and that Lyanna died in Dorne, they would also put 2 and 2 together, and there would be no secret.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

How could his people not know it?? Why would Ned hide his bastard in the way to Winterfell??

Why? Because of the above. Ned's sister is abducted, goes missing for a year, and then she's dead and Ned has a baby - I'd say it's absolutely vital that as few people as possible know that there is a connection between Lyanna and Jon. Especially as Ned is probably not going right to Winterfell but to KL, to report to Robert (though it is possible that they met and reconciled only later, it is not specified when this happened). The trip to Starfall is a perfect opportunity to make Lyanna and Jon two separate news, if Ned sends Jon up North with Howland and has him either delivered directly to Winterfell or picks him up somewhere along the way, and meanwhile he himself returns, with Lyanna's bones and babyless, via a different route.

[frenin]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It seems doubtful that the singers tales would have stopped at the narrow sea.  Dany just hears the tales, and the romantic nature of the Rhaegar and Lyanna doomed love affair resonates to her, and she then fantasies about Daario playing the part of Rhaegar and carrying her away from the selfish people who are forcing her into a loveless marriage.

I mean the very thing is kind of happening to her.  Only it is her sense of duty to Meereen that is forcing her hand in marrying someone she doesn’t love.  It’s a Young girl’s fantasy spurred on by singers tales.

A very tenuous thing to try and draw factual conclusions from IMO.

It seems odd then that Dany never mentions them and even more doubtful that neither Viserys nor Darry had given her their versions and Dany is for some reason trusting the singer's tale better than her brother's, whom per her words has shaped absolutely every view she has of Westeros and the Robellion... Every event and character but the kidnapping?? Quite convenient.

It seems tangible enough for me.

 

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It's called analysis. If a statement is left vague, you cannot assume it means just one thing because you might be overlooking other options. There is a certain discrepancy between what Cat lists and what she asks. It may be just an omission of the obvious, or it may be intentional and illustrate how people jump to conclusions with incomplete information. Kinda like an explanation how people like Cersei, who definitely wasn't anywhere near any reliable source of information, throws in Ashara's name, because Ashara had a baby, committed suicide after Ned's visit, and Ned now has a baby. 

And honestly, as I hinted above: I really don't see the maids being so bold as to discuss in front of their lady who her husband might have slept with. They might be implying it, with that emphasis on Ashara's physical description (unlike her brother, whom one would expect to be more interesting for young girls, dead or not), for Cat to draw an obvious conclusion, but this is in no way certain. And it is in no way certain that it was the gossip itself, and not Cat in her hurt and jealousy, who put the emphasis on Ashara's beauty.

It's the opposite of analysis,  it's blocking.

I can assumme it, because Cat does, as simple as that, she starts wondering about Jon's mother, then goes on to say thatthe castle has no secrets and then, Ashara's name pops out, later on,  if there was any doubt,  she'll say that there are rumours saying that Ashara's Jon's mother. 

Ceresi throws in Ashara's name in the hopes of hurting and she's just repeating a gossip, she's not even assesting it.

 

Cat neer tells that the maids are discussing anything in front of her, she states that the maids are whispering the tales their husbands had brought on from the front, if Cat was desperate for new info she could perfectly spied them. The gossip itself comes from men and they are going to emphazise Ashara's beauty, she's not only a romantic interest, she's exotic and outsider,  that's the jackpot.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The fact that they were at the same location doesn't mean they had access to the same whispers. Arya has absolutely no idea who Jon's mother might be, Sansa heard about a common woman, Cat knows whispers about Ashara Dayne but never indicates any knowledge of the HH romance or a common woman (she thinks that if it wasn't Ashara, she has no idea who it might have been)

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Or that by the time those were grown enough to listen things they shouldn't  hear Ashara's name would've been long forbidden?? How could Sansa and Arya know anything about Ashara if according to Cat after her fiasco this happened...

 

and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

 

How could Arya and Sansa learnt anything if those whisperings had stopped long before they were even born??

Harwin however, hears Ashara's tale in Winterfell, ergo before Ned put and end to that and when Ashara's tales were so widespread around Winterfell that even Cat knew about them, so it's quite impossible that Harwin and Cat didn't have access to the same info.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. It couldn't have been Robert because it would be a new information to Sansa and she wouldn't just casually mention it like she does. She names her source as "people whispered", which really doesn't sound like lord X gossiping with lord Y (and why would they be having this discussion under their liege's roof, anyway). Winterfell servants is the most plausible source.

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Why not?? If it's Robert court mentioning it, it would be people whispering, as it would people whispering if she heard the tale in White Harbor, the Dreadfort or any of the Northern castles, she doesn't say who whispered, which given the fact that Jon's origins is common gossip around the Realm, she could be really referring anyone and anytime.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

We can because we know about Lyanna's bed of blood at ToJ. No-one in-world ever mentions knowing that Jon was from Dorne. The one person outside Starfall who knows about Wylla as Jon's mother is Robert. The name of Jon's wetnurse at Winterfell is never stated, it may have been someone else, someone having no idea where Jon was from.

Also, it makes sense that this is not common knowledge because if people knew that Jon was from Dorne, and that Lyanna died in Dorne, they would also put 2 and 2 together, and there would be no secret.

They can because they'd see Ned marching from KL with no baby and they'd see Ned returning from Dorne, because at one point or other Ned left his army in a unknown location (who the hell destroyed the ToJ anyway??) and came from Dorne with a baby and a wetnurse, no one knows who was Jon's wetnurse at Winterfell but Wylla was Jon wetnurse  at least since Jon's left Dorne and somewhere rejoined with his army. So unless Ned had Jon hidden in a incredible way, his army should've notice the extra baggage.

 

Is it?? Ned fathering a bastard gave people something to be distraught about and as far as we know, Lyanna's whereabouts wasn't common knowledge anyway, less where she died.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Why? Because of the above. Ned's sister is abducted, goes missing for a year, and then she's dead and Ned has a baby - I'd say it's absolutely vital that as few people as possible know that there is a connection between Lyanna and Jon. Especially as Ned is probably not going right to Winterfell but to KL, to report to Robert (though it is possible that they met and reconciled only later, it is not specified when this happened). The trip to Starfall is a perfect opportunity to make Lyanna and Jon two separate news, if Ned sends Jon up North with Howland and has him either delivered directly to Winterfell or picks him up somewhere along the way, and meanwhile he himself returns, with Lyanna's bones and babyless, via a different route.

How can Ned send Jon up North with Howland?? Who is going to feed him?? Does even Hoeland knows how to treat a baby?? How can Howland make it to the North with a child alone??  Lyanna was dead as far as anyone knew and was cased closed, Ned fathering a bastard in the heat of war is plausible enough for everyone stop then frim asking many questions, especially since Ned wasn't known prior the war and after that, he was entirely secluded in his own kingdom.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You guys are really splitting hairs here.  According to Cat Ned was furious with Cat for confronting him about Ashara.  

No, about Jon. What Cat thinks is less important as to Ned's motivation than the actual words she recalls Ned saying. Details matter. Sources matter. Cat has her own unconscious bias, and in order to understand the truth better we need to be careful about whether that bias affects her thoughts. Ned's actual words show whats important to him far far better than Cat's understanding of their relevance.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

He tells her to never ask him about Jon again which makes it clear that she’s confronting him with a rumor that directly concerns Jon.  He demands to know where she heard the rumors from, and after that no one made mention of Ashara’s name again.  
 

Right. 
What that means is that Cat is concerned about Jon's mother. Cat heard a rumour - she told us what was in it and it did not mention Jon (that one/time at least). It did mention a potential love interest for Ned. Thats enough for Cat, as opposed to the rumour, to put 2+2 together and ask about Ashara-as-Jon's mum. But thats on Cat putting 2+2 together, not on the rumour she told us about.

Ned's concern is explicitly not Ashara. And while Ashara's name was not heard again, all the whispers died, which means no ones name was heard again (at least not in Cat or Ned's hearing.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s fairly clear that , according to Cat, Ned looked to put a stop to this rumor being disseminated.

To all rumours being disseminated around Jon.

 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

No the rumor Cat confronts Ned with linked Ashara with Ned and Jon:

As shown, the rumour did not. Cat did.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why else would Ned respond to Cat asking him about the truth of the rumor by telling her to never ask him about Jon?

Because Cat linked the the hauntingly beautiful maiden 'waiting for Ned' and Ned's bastard must have had a mother he loved very much.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench

 

This is screaming, Ned had the hots for Ashara all over the place,

Thats one option. But it also suggests very strongly Brandon thought shy lad Ned was Nedding his way towards completely missing out on the biggest party of a generation and needed pulling out of himself.
Given that there are at least two, if not more, clear possibilities, I I think its utterly unreasonable to say its "screaming" either of them.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

If i wanted to play the devil's advocant however i'd say that Ashara's sister should have a better understanding about what happened there than any other, bar i don't know ¿Howland?

That rather depends on how old she is.
Given that she would need to have been at least, say, seven (being extremely generous!) to have any real cognisance of what happened at Harrenhal, that would make her late twenties now.
Yet we hear she's been betrothed for the best part of 6-7 years to mid-twenties Lord Beric Dondarrion and not yet married. A betrothal that long, to a Lord in his mid twenties, and no marriage, rather suggests she's too young to get married yet - in that culture's terms shes practically an old maid already if she was 7+ at the time of Harrenhal 20 years ago!
That ties in with her telling nonsensical gossipy stories to Edric. Its very very likely that she's a similar age to Edri, a few years older at most, and not even born at the time of Harrenhal!
(I rather like the idea that she is in fact Ashara's not-actually-stillborn baby, claimed by her grandmother in order to keep the family and child's honour and future intact.)

So no, I don't think Ashara's sister is likely to have a better understanding of what happened at Harrenhal and after. Not if she was perhaps conceived at Harrenhal.
 

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned and Ashara is far stronger than Brandon, the only really logic behind Brandon is that,  " i don't think it was Ned and some Stark must be involved so i go with Brandon  because  Benjen seems too young."

No. 
The logic for B+A is multifaceted.
First, that Ashara was dishonoured and looked to Stark. that doesn;t make it a sure thing that a Stark man dishonoured her, but it does put Starks, and to a lesser extent perhaps their bannermen, right at the top of the list.
Second, Barristan thinks that Young girls ALWAYS choose fire men and get burned. Ashara was a young girl that Barristan was paying close attention to. She chose a fire man and got burned. Ned is a mud man, Brandon is a fire man.
Third, that Brandon has history with fooling around with young noblewomen. And not marrying them. Whereas Ned, although he claims a bastard, has no history fooling around with any woman except his wife, either in his head or in the best friend he grew up with's thoughts. Robert's "one time" for Ned is entirely due to the bastard - Robert never met the woman he thinks Ned had his 'one time' with.

I thought Ned+ Ashara was a thing (at Harrenhal, not =J) before ADwD came out. That was the best information we had and was backed up by KotLT Dance story and Edric Dayne's tale. It also was not too strongly against Ned's character if it was a minor thing and had no major long term consequences.
But what we learnt in ADwD from Barristan about fire/mud men and what we learnt about Brandon's history and character, plus the very much greater consequences and effects we learned about whatever happened to Ashara at Harrenhal, make it very clear that if a Stark dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhal it was Brandon not Ned. And re-examining the KotLT dance tale and Edric Dayne's tale, the flaws become apparent. GRRM tricked me initially, but the greater information made the picture clearer.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

And Ned and Ashara having a night in Harrenhall in no way means that Ned should've be hung up onto that 15 years later, it seems that if our Ned is not deeply in love with someone, it's impossible for him.

There were life-destroying consequences for Ashara as a result of what happened at Harrenhal. And if Ned was responsible there was absolutely no reason he couldn't have handled the situation to avoid destroying Ashara. He was unbetrothed, a free second son.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

It's likely that Cat couldn't have heard the same tales Harwin did when she was so interested in the subject?? It could be, but whether that is true or not, it's quite clear that Winterfell thought Ashara was the mother.

Some in Winterfell floated it as a possibility, yes. And possibly some thought it a probability, we can't tell. They didn't have much to go on, since they weren't around and Ned wasn't saying nuttin.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

If Ned comes back from Starfall with a kid and people already knew about what happened in Harrenhall is quite easy how the soldiers connect the dots and what they'd tell when they arrived home.

Indeed. But those dots don;t lead to Jon being conceived at Harrenhal. They lead to a N+A relationship starting at Harrenhal.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

As far we know it could go either way, Ashara may have not noticed any of the brothers giving how much attention she'd be receiving or Ashara may have notoced Ned but not giving the first step and in both cases Brandon was the go in between. Brandon and Ashara didn't dance as far we know.

Well, at least here you admit that it could go either way. Thats really the point. It could go ether way. So what other information do we have thats relevant? The answer to that is:
for Ned - gossip from people who weren't there but have drawn an obvious but incorrect conclusion from A+B (gossip which is also contradictory and sometimes nonsensical)
for Brandon - strong character evidence about both men, Ned's lack of memories or care for Ashara, Brandon deflowering a noble girl history and Barristan's (who was there and paying attention) mud vs fire evidence

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Brandon acting like that is why i find unlikely she later banged her, if he knows his little bro is interested, he'd get out the way.

This argument really bugs me.
First, it assumes the argument to make the argument. Because Ned liked her therefore Ned liked her.
Second, it assumes choices and character not in evidence. For some men, yes, if a 'bro' likes a girl, its hands off. For others that makes her even more interesting. There is no evidence at all Brandon was the first type. There some evidence he might be the second type.
Third, it takes Ashara's desires and choices completely out of the equation, and barring and out and out rape, I don't think thats logical at all.

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's the nature of rumors, isn't it?  Some people heard it rumored that Ashara was Jon's mother, others heard that it was some commoner that Ned met up with.  

I'm not here to suggest that because it was rumored that Ashara was Jon's mother and because it was rumored that Ashara and Ned's dalliance occurred at Harrenhal that I think that in fact, Jon was conceived at Harrenhal.  I too think that this is probably too early.

But wasn't that exact thing claimed earlier on? (Probably not by you). Thats what we are arguing most about, the rest is just details around it.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My only point is that we really don't have enough information to make that call yet, do we?  

Some of us think we do,

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So is it possible that the at least some in Winterfell believe (once again perhaps without justification) that Jon was born a good bit before Robb, despite or perhaps because of what they have seen of both children? 

No, I don;t think its a possibility. Maybe for a small number of people rather distant from the kids, but not for anyone who saw Jon and Rob growing up together in those first few months.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I know that Cat seems to believe that Ned conceived Jon after their marriage, but it's not really clear why she assumes that.  Is it because of what she observed between Jon or Robb?  Or does she assumes it because she wants it to be true?  That she wants Robb to be older than Jon.  

At least for me it's hard to tell.  We have to look no further than the POV chapters of her daughter Sansa to see that we may not be able to completely trust that the inner thoughts of these characters as accurately reflecting reality.

Yes, these things are true. 
But for Jon to be conceived at Harrenhal he must be at least 6 months older than Rob, maybe 9 months or more.
No one who has anything more than a very peripheral or passing connection with the kids can fail to notice that big a difference when the younger is only 3 months old.   

 

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

How close in age were Aemon and Monster? If memory serves, Monster was born first before Sam and Gilly escaped from the white walkers and wights. Dalla gave birth while Stannis's army attacked.

So a month or two? Now thats close enough for someone not totally intimate with them to confuse which is the older.

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I'm not, i just think you're splitting hairs to not face the obvious conclussions, Cat starts by saying that Ned wouldn't talk about the mother, then inmediately says but a castle has no secrets and she starts talking about Ashara Dayne,  she didn't explicitely state that she was dead, are we to believe that she didn't know she was?? And we both the rumours outright talked about the romance between those two, the rumours Cat hears and the rumours Harwin hears are the same, same source and same location.

No, you are assuming they are the same and then concluding they are the same. They are explicitly different. Cat makes the conclusion you are making, but Cat doesn't know and doesnt have all the info we do. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Cat only gives us the presentation of Ashara but she's clearly liking those rumours with Jon.

Yes. But shes linking them, the rumours themselves are quite different.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Are we to believe that Harwin and Cat lived in parallalel dimensions?? Because if they didn't, the rumours Harwin listened are the same rumours Cat heard, both of them lived in the same place and the source would've been the exact same.

No, there are many different rumours floating around before Ned silences them (and after most likely).
Both Cat and Harwin tell us the rumour they are referencing and the two are explicitly different. Cat makes a conclusion based on one rumour that leads to the same idea as the other rumour, but they are explicitly two different rumours that say different things.

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It's the opposite of analysis,  it's blocking.

One side is acknowledging all the different information and sources, the other is claiming its all one and the same. Its easy to tell who's "blocking".

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I can assumme it, because Cat does, as simple as that, she starts wondering about Jon's mother, then goes on to say thatthe castle has no secrets and then, Ashara's name pops out, later on,  if there was any doubt,  she'll say that there are rumours saying that Ashara's Jon's mother. 

 

See, even your own words betray you. Cat assumes it. Not teh rumour says it,. Cat assumes it. And Cat's assumption clouds her understanding of things. But the words Ned said are clear, unclouded.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

They can because they'd see Ned marching from KL with no baby and they'd see Ned returning from Dorne, because at one point or other Ned left his army in a unknown location (who the hell destroyed the ToJ anyway??) and came from Dorne with a baby and a wetnurse, no one knows who was Jon's wetnurse at Winterfell but Wylla was Jon wetnurse  at least since Jon's left Dorne and somewhere rejoined with his army. So unless Ned had Jon hidden in a incredible way, his army should've notice the extra baggage.

What makes you think Ned rejoined his army?
Ned left his army at Storms End (and possibly mostly at KL before that). He went with a small group of companions (that much is explicitly clear, and makes absolute sense in the circumstances) to ToJ. He then went to Starfall to return Dawn. Apparently with an even smaller group (most of his friends died), and probably a wetnurse picked up at ToJ (the KG would have needed one prepared in case Lyanna died, and that explains the Wylla-as-mum rumours - Ned rode in to Starfall with Wylla nursing Jon).
From there, it seems Ned did stop at KL on teh way home, to talk to Robert. Or maybe that was later. Maybe he kept Jon and wetnurse on his ship, or dsent them ahead separately (perhaps with Howland) we don;t know. What we don't have is any evidence, or reason why, Ned rejoined his army with Jon in tow.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

How can Ned send Jon up North with Howland?? Who is going to feed him?? Does even Hoeland knows how to treat a baby?? How can Howland make it to the North with a child alone??  Lyanna was dead as far as anyone knew and was cased closed, Ned fathering a bastard in the heat of war is plausible enough for everyone stop then frim asking many questions, especially since Ned wasn't known prior the war and after that, he was entirely secluded in his own kingdom.

Thats what a wetnurse is for. They made it from ToJ to Starfall. I'm sure Ned wasn;t the one seeing to Jon's necessities on that trip. Sending teh rest of the party north to Winterfell without Ned makes zero difference in terms of the baby's needs.

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, corbon said:

So a month or two? Now thats close enough for someone not totally intimate with them to confuse which is the older.

I’m not sure if the text says how much time between births, but even one month difference can produce distinctive developmental differences. Milestone accomplishments like rolling over, sitting up without assistance, crawling, etc ... it’s noticeable. Also, babies put on weight and grow taller/longer every week. I agree that the differences wouldn’t be as noticeable to someone that didn’t know the children intimately, but if Catelyn even had the thought that Ashara could be Jon’s mother, then I think we can safely assume she thought he was old enough to have been conceived at Harrenhal. I do realize that she also says he was conceived when Ned was on campaign, but since Jon was already at Winterfell by the time Catelyn brought Robb home, he wasn’t hauled up from Starfall or Dorne when Ned returned home after the war. Catelyn’s words about the first time she saw Moat Caitlin imply Ned was with her.

[frenin]

27 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats one option. But it also suggests very strongly Brandon thought shy lad Ned was Nedding his way towards completely missing out on the biggest party of a generation and needed pulling out of himself.
 Given that there are at least two, if not more, clear possibilities, I I think its utterly unreasonable to say its "screaming" either of them.

Why?? Ned didn't have a problem with party nor he was missing anything,  he was drinking with his buds and his father's bannermen, he had a very specifical problem with aproaching  Ashara and that's what Brandon sorted out.

Ned is shy to talk with Asahara, nor is too shy in general or have a problem with talking with people or the ambient, Ashara is the only source of his shyness, that's screaming attraction.

 

38 minutes ago, corbon said:

That rather depends on how old she is.
Given that she would need to have been at least, say, seven (being extremely generous!) to have any real cognisance of what happened at Harrenhal, that would make her late twenties now.
Yet we hear she's been betrothed for the best part of 6-7 years to mid-twenties Lord Beric Dondarrion and not yet married. A betrothal that long, to a Lord in his mid twenties, and no marriage, rather suggests she's too young to get married yet - in that culture's terms shes practically an old maid already if she was 7+ at the time of Harrenhal 20 years ago!
That ties in with her telling nonsensical gossipy stories to Edric. Its very very likely that she's a similar age to Edri, a few years older at most, and not even born at the time of Harrenhal!
(I rather like the idea that she is in fact Ashara's not-actually-stillborn baby, claimed by her grandmother in order to keep the family and child's honour and future intact.)

So no, I don't think Ashara's sister is likely to have a better understanding of what happened at Harrenhal and after. Not if she was perhaps conceived at Harrenhal.

Not really relevant, Bran was 7-9 years old and has a very clear picture of what was happening around him and before he marches to war, Robb is rather open with him, to the point of telling him that he's  shitscared of half of his own bannermen, the only thing necessary for her to know the truth would be simply asking her sister for it

Btw, she can marry practically when she wants people often took the culture too seriously, Malora Hightower is unwed, just as was Jeyne Arryn and just as is Barbs, Edric is a child and in no position of commanding anything, that's not and evidence nor that she tells nonsensical gossips, anyway.

 

 

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

No. 
The logic for B+A is multifaceted.
First, that Ashara was dishonoured and looked to Stark. that doesn;t make it a sure thing that a Stark man dishonoured her, but it does put Starks, and to a lesser extent perhaps their bannermen, right at the top of the list.
Second, Barristan thinks that Young girls ALWAYS choose fire men and get burned. Ashara was a young girl that Barristan was paying close attention to. She chose a fire man and got burned. Ned is a mud man, Brandon is a fire man.
Third, that Brandon has history with fooling around with young noblewomen. And not marrying them. Whereas Ned, although he claims a bastard, has no history fooling around with any woman except his wife, either in his head or in the best friend he grew up with's thoughts. Robert's "one time" for Ned is entirely due to the bastard - Robert never met the woman he thinks Ned had his 'one time' with.

I thought Ned+ Ashara was a thing (at Harrenhal, not =J) before ADwD came out. That was the best information we had and was backed up by KotLT Dance story and Edric Dayne's tale. It also was not too strongly against Ned's character if it was a minor thing and had no major long term consequences.
But what we learnt in ADwD from Barristan about fire/mud men and what we learnt about Brandon's history and character, plus the very much greater consequences and effects we learned about whatever happened to Ashara at Harrenhal, make it very clear that if a Stark dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhal it was Brandon not Ned. And re-examining the KotLT dance tale and Edric Dayne's tale, the flaws become apparent. GRRM tricked me initially, but the greater information made the picture clearer.

 

• Barristan opinions are not written on a pile of stone you know that right?? The fact that Barristan thinks that don't make it true or appliable to all women. Ashara was burned quite by Ned's actions, not Brandon's.
• The womanizer trait, Brandon has a history of fooling around with noblewomen but as far as i know, when Brandon started fooling around with that one noblewoman, people seemed to believe that that noblewoman would become his wife,  Ned says he's not Robert and he doesn't know gow to get his pleasures like him, he doesn't say that he has never done anything while being young and unattached.

The fire and mud thing is pretty nonsense to me, that people are always likely to choose the pretty face is hardly surprising, Barristan didn't need to tell us to drawn to see the obvious, there are no very much greater consequences and effects we learned to happen to her, honestly you act like Barri B revealed us who Jon's parents are, as far as we know, any noble past the Red Mountains is not going to think so greatly of a woman banging outside marriage.

Btw, at the end it was all down to,  I don't think Ned  did it, gotta be Brandon....

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

There were life-destroying consequences for Ashara as a result of what happened at Harrenhal. And if Ned was responsible there was absolutely no reason he couldn't have handled the situation to avoid destroying Ashara. He was unbetrothed, a free second son.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

You assume they were,  we got to hear someone talk of Ashara like they talk of Lollys or the Queen (s) o' whores to believe they was any life destroting consequences.

Unless Ned is a greenseer i don't know how could he be aware of anything and he was married within less than a year.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Some in Winterfell floated it as a possibility, yes. And possibly some thought it a probability, we can't tell. They didn't have much to go on, since they weren't around and Ned wasn't saying nuttin.

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Apparently the soldiers filled them in.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Indeed. But those dots don;t lead to Jon being conceived at Harrenhal. They lead to a N+A relationship starting at Harrenhal.

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I've already told you quite a few times that i don't believe  someone was conceived in  Harrenhall.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Well, at least here you admit that it could go either way. Thats really the point. It could go ether way. So what other information do we have thats relevant? The answer to that is:
for Ned - gossip from people who weren't there but have drawn an obvious but incorrect conclusion from A+B (gossip which is also contradictory and sometimes nonsensical)
for Brandon - strong character evidence about both men, Ned's lack of memories or care for Ashara, Brandon deflowering a noble girl history and Barristan's (who was there and paying attention) mud vs fire evidence

The gossip starts with the people who were there, for Brandon we have, and old generalizing,  Brandon deflowering a gorl she might marry and Ned's lack of memory of someone he might have banged 15 years ago...

Brandon is as good as character for the gossip as Ned is,  the idea that absolutely no one had ever linked those two points that, those two were never abed.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

This argument really bugs me.
First, it assumes the argument to make the argument. Because Ned liked her therefore Ned liked her.
Second, it assumes choices and character not in evidence. For some men, yes, if a 'bro' likes a girl, its hands off. For others that makes her even more interesting. There is no evidence at all Brandon was the first type. There some evidence he might be the second type.
Third, it takes Ashara's desires and choices completely out of the equation, and barring and out and out rape, I don't think thats logical at all.

???

1. It assumes the premise, if Ned was attracted to her at the beginning of the Tourney, is unlikely that he'd lose interest during the Tourney.
2. It assumes that brothers who had a loving relationship act as you know, brothers, there is literally no evidence Brandon was ever that asshole to his brother,  i really expect that your evidence is bit that he was a womanizer and wasn't shy to take what he wants please because that's not to say that he'd go off to ,  and that kid of act are the ones that starts rifs. We're not talking about some buds who like the same girl and consider each others "bros", we're talking about actual brothers, who cared and loved each other.
3. No, it doesn't but if we are talking about and i know you like her,  whether she likes me much or not is irrelevant if i don't act on it, knowing your feelings. If the only one that pursued her was Ned, either Ashara got Ned or she didn't get any of the brothers, she might have liked Ned and banged hi or she might not have liked him and not banged but she didn't get to bang Brandon either.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

No, you are assuming they are the same and then concluding they are the same. They are explicitly different. Cat makes the conclusion you are making, but Cat doesn't know and doesnt have all the info we do. 

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How so?? Cat wonders about Jon's mother and thn starts talking about Ashara and whn she asks Ned, the first thing he says is "mever ask me about Jon again." If it walks lke a duck...

Cat doesn't know but she never pretends she knows, she repeatedly wonders about who the mother might be, but Cat not knowing who she is, don't mean that the Castle can't think they know who she is.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Yes. But shes linking them, the rumours themselves are quite different.

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Are they?? Because the rumours talk about Ned and Ashara and she starts going on about the rumours after saying that even when Ned wasn't saying nothing about the mother, the castle has no secrets.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

One side is acknowledging all the different information and sources, the other is claiming its all one and the same. Its easy to tell who's "blocking".

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

See, even your own words betray you. Cat assumes it. Not teh rumour says it,. Cat assumes it. And Cat's assumption clouds her understanding of things. But the words Ned said are clear, unclouded.

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???

Cat assumes that Ashara might be the mother because the rumours quite say it and then she brings her assumptions to Ned.

Cat don't believe outright that Ashara's Jon's mother, that's why she asks Ned,  but she does heard the tale from the rumours.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

What makes you think Ned rejoined his army?
Ned left his army at Storms End (and possibly mostly at KL before that). He went with a small group of companions (that much is explicitly clear, and makes absolute sense in the circumstances) to ToJ. He then went to Starfall to return Dawn. Apparently with an even smaller group (most of his friends died), and probably a wetnurse picked up at ToJ (the KG would have needed one prepared in case Lyanna died, and that explains the Wylla-as-mum rumours - Ned rode in to Starfall with Wylla nursing Jon).
From there, it seems Ned did stop at KL on teh way home, to talk to Robert. Or maybe that was later. Maybe he kept Jon and wetnurse on his ship, or dsent them ahead separately (perhaps with Howland) we don;t know. What we don't have is any evidence, or reason why, Ned rejoined his army with Jon in tow.

Because we don't know where he left his army but it's quite clear that he should meet them at some point, it doesn't make sense that Ned left most of his army at KL, he expected battle and Mace's army wasn't little.

What ship Ned had?? The royal fleet was all in Dragonstone and the Redwynes weren't giving none and Robert was busy building another,  there is no ship, Ned would've to make the voyage a horse and an army guarding Jon is safer than a... how many men do you think he'd have assigned??

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

No, there are many different rumours floating around before Ned silences them (and after most likely).
Both Cat and Harwin tell us the rumour they are referencing and the two are explicitly different. Cat makes a conclusion based on one rumour that leads to the same idea as the other rumour, but they are explicitly two different rumours that say different things.

Ofc they are, that much is evident but those rumours all end uppointing to both Ned and Ashara, but the idea that Cat hasn't heard any rumoursof Harrenhall when she goes on and on bout the amount of tales about those two are very very few.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Thats what a wetnurse is for. They made it from ToJ to Starfall. I'm sure Ned wasn;t the one seeing to Jon's necessities on that trip. Sending teh rest of the party north to Winterfell without Ned makes zero difference in terms of the baby's needs.

Giving that you're talking about sending, three people, one of them a newborn, in a wartorm country, from Dorne to Winterfell i 'd say that the bigger the retinue, the safer they'll be.

[corbon]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I’m not sure if the text says how much time between births, but even one month difference can produce distinctive developmental differences. Milestone accomplishments like rolling over, sitting up without assistance, crawling, etc ... it’s noticeable. Also, babies put on weight and grow taller/longer every week.

Indeed. Very much indeed. Thats the point. But I'm willing to be generous and say a month or two might be close enough together that two babies could possibly be confused as to which one is older because those developmental stages are happening relatively closely and there is alos a little variation between individuals.

But a difference of 6 months or more is utterly impossible to make the same mistake if you have anything to do with the children.

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I agree that the differences wouldn’t be as noticeable to someone that didn’t know the children intimately, but if Catelyn even had the thought that Ashara could be Jon’s mother, then I think we can safely assume she thought he was old enough to have been conceived at Harrenhal.

I don't know whats going on here, but thats completely incompatible with what you just wrote, as well as being an ... hmm, whats the term?... its not a wrong conclusion, but its not a direct logical conclusion from the data. A could lead to B with other information but A does not lead to B as a direct logic conclusion. And the other information she has (age/developmental comparison) says A is incompatible with B.
If Jon was conceived at Harrenhal Catelyn couldn't possibly miss that he was considerably older than Rob, (6 months or more older).  
Having the thought that Ashara was Jon's mother does not create the thought that he was conceived at Harrenhal as a logical connection. It creates the thought that a relationship formed with Ned. But its incompatble for Jon to be conceived at Harrenhal with Jon being younger than Rob. Therefore she must follow the logic train that Ned+Ashara were a thing at Harrenhal and therefore perhaps they met again some time while Ned was campaigning, after Cat married Ned and conceived Rob, and that Jon was conceived at that second meeting on campaign, not the first meeting at Harrenhal. 

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I do realize that she also says he was conceived when Ned was on campaign,

Right, thats the logical conclusion, and its not incompatible with any data point.

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

but since Jon was already at Winterfell by the time Catelyn brought Robb home, he wasn’t hauled up from Starfall or Dorne when Ned returned home after the war.

There is no indication whether Ned was there when she arrived (with Jon) or not.
Actually there is, its just not definitive and allows, perhaps, for Ned sending Jon home first.

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He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Ned brought his bastard home with him literally says that Jon came with Ned. But its possible that she's speaking figuratively.
 

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Catelyn’s words about the first time she saw Moat Caitlin imply Ned was with her.

No, they don't. They can possibly be read that way, but they read just as well if not better other ways. There is no implication either way since both readings are perfectly compatible.

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"Gods have mercy," Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. "This is Moat Cailin? It's no more than a—"

"—death trap," Catelyn finished. "I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems. The three surviving towers command the causeway from all sides, and any enemy must pass between them. The bogs here are impenetrable, full of quicksands and suckholes and teeming with snakes. To assault any of the towers, an army would need to wade through waist-deep black muck, cross a moat full of lizard-lions, and scale walls slimy with moss, all the while exposing themselves to fire from archers in the other towers." She gave her uncle a grim smile. "And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood."

Note the pause between her thought and Ned telling her stuff. There is no requirement or inference that Ned must have told her that stuff the first time she saw it, only that thats how she thought of it then. Later, Ned tells her about its details and defensive attributes still works perfectly for her statement and fits the pause even better.
IMO (and obviously yours will differ, thats fine, everyone can judge the case their own way) in makes considerably more sense that Ned tells her about its defensible attributes when they are discussing plans to defend it, not when he's travelling with a new bride through the whole of the North for her  first time - if he even did that,
 

[corbon]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Why?? Ned didn't have a problem with party nor he was missing anything,  he was drinking with his buds and his father's bannermen, he had a very specifical problem with aproaching  Ashara and that's what Brandon sorted out.

Thats pure fanfic. No evidence Ned was drinking. None he was with his buds (earlier he'd been with HR, but now HR is a detached observer), no indication his problem is specific to Ashara (Quiet Wolf is a generalisation, just like Wild Wolf and Young Wolf, and supports general shyness and quietness) and explicit mention that Ned was too shy to leave his bench, so yes, he was missing out on the dancing, the party.

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"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

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Ned is shy to talk with Asahara, nor is too shy in general or have a problem with talking with people or the ambient, Ashara is the only source of his shyness, that's screaming attraction.

Quiet Wolf.

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Not really relevant, Bran was 7-9 years old and has a very clear picture of what was happening around him and before he marches to war, Robb is rather open with him, to the point of telling him that he's  shitscared of half of his own bannermen, the only thing necessary for her to know the truth would be simply asking her sister for it

Thats assuming she's even 7. When the evidence points against.
And its apples vs oranges. Robb isn't telling Bran the details of his personal relationships, dishonour and disgrace after the fact. 
And Bran is actually pretty clueless, telling us all about how Rhaegar raped Lyanna for example. A perfect case of the clueless child repeating stuff he's heard and believes, but doesn't truly understand.

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Btw, she can marry practically when she wants people often took the culture too seriously, Malora Hightower is unwed, just as was Jeyne Arryn and just as is Barbs,

Sure. Some women buck the trend. But its still a trend, and those examples are all women unbetrothed - they don;t want a marriage or haven't had a suitable partner found yet. Buts Allyria's already betrothed. She has been for a long time, 6 years or more. Such a long betrothal when they are both well past the age of wedding and bedding, points very strongly to her youth. 

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Edric is a child and in no position of commanding anything, that's not and evidence nor that she tells nonsensical gossips, anyway.

The nonsensical part is the Ned was in love with Ashara but banging Wylla. Ned Dayne is too young or inexperienced to understand what that means. Its another pointer that likely Allyria is too.

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• Barristan opinions are not written on a pile of stone you know that right?? The fact that Barristan thinks that don't make it true or appliable to all women.

But people, including Barristan, make such statements based on their personal experience.
Yes, its not necessarily true, and doesn't apply to all women necessarily. But it does apply to all such women in Barristan's close experience, or he wouldn't make such an observation - its in his head, his true thoughts remember, not something he's telling someone else.  He genuinely believes this, which means it must genuinely fit his experiences.

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• Ashara was burned quite by Ned's actions, not Brandon's.

Ashara was burned by the actions of whoever dishonoured her. Thats not really the question. The question is who did she choose. Barristan can only believe she chose a fire man, and that fits Brandon and not Ned.
And no, thats not utterly conclusive, Barristan could be misunderstanding something. But its a really solid data point from someone who was around at the time and paying close attention to Ashara. Its infinitely more useful to us in making judgements that the rumours of Winterfell of the internally inconsistent word of a 'family member' who likely wasn't even born at the time.

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• The womanizer trait, Brandon has a history of fooling around with noblewomen but as far as i know, when Brandon started fooling around with that one noblewoman, people seemed to believe that that noblewoman would become his wife, 

Check again.

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The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."

All we get from teh first paragraph is that Barbrey's father would have served her up to any Stark, in the hope for a marriage. Not specifically to marry Brandon. Heck if Brandon got her pregnant her father could have had a reasonable hope that Ned would be given to her as a husband even if Brandon wasn't available.
Elsewhere we learn that Catelyn was 12 when her betrothal to Brandon was announced. That makes Brandon 14 or 15. Yet when he took Barbrey Dustin's maidenhood he told her a bloody sword is a beautiful thing.  Maybe he was 13 or 14. More likely he was a bit older, and therefore knew, though it seems Barbey did not, that he was already engaged to Cat and with such a match would not marry Barbrey even if he knocked her up.
 

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• Ned says he's not Robert and he doesn't know gow to get his pleasures like him, he doesn't say that he has never done anything while being young and unattached.

No, Robert says that. "Never the boy you were" and "that one time" and "your precious honour". 
I don't know whether Ned came to Cat's bed a virgin or not. I do know that he wasn't the sort of man, or boy, to fuck em and leave em and not do right by em.

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The fire and mud thing is pretty nonsense to me, that people are always likely to choose the pretty face is hardly surprising, Barristan didn't need to tell us to drawn to see the obvious, there are no very much greater consequences and effects we learned to happen to her,

Its not a just pretty face thing. Its a character thing. 

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Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl's heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

 

Sober, sensible, dutiful. Nourishment, growth, healing. And yes, plainfaced, but thats only a part.
vs
Poetry, passion, laughter. Being consumed (destroyed). 

 

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You assume they were,  we got to hear someone talk of Ashara like they talk of Lollys or the Queen (s) o' whores to believe they was any life destroting consequences.

No assumption, her life literally was. She went from a young beauty at court to a dishonoured woman, no longer at court, with an illegitimate child, no husband or chance of one, who apparently committed suicide. How much more destroyed can you get?

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Unless Ned is a greenseer i don't know how could he be aware of anything and he was married within less than a year.

Ashara specifically had the opportunity to and did look to Stark. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

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I've already told you quite a few times that i don't believe  someone was conceived in  Harrenhall.

Then why keep arguing that  people think it?

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The gossip starts with the people who were there,

We don't know that. Who was there and says anything?
We know that gossip says that was a connection at Harrenhal, but we don't know when or where that gossip started.
We saw how Catelyn came to that ideal - Jon must have a mother, he came back with Ned from the south and Starfall had this beautiful maiden waiting for Ned... Thats literally all you need. 
But then, there's also something that happened involving a Stark at Harrenhal. With Ashara. Which merely adds to the idea, without even needing to know what happened. 

Just like Cersei its entirely possible for Winterfellians to come to that idea with no actual knowledge of any of the events.

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How so?? Cat wonders about Jon's mother

Cats wondering is not the rumour, she tells us what the rumour she heard was.

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They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes

Thats the rumour, Cat tells us. 
 

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and thn starts talking about Ashara and whn she asks Ned, the first thing he says is "mever ask me about Jon again." If it walks lke a duck...

Its a duck. But you're saying if it walks like a duck without it actually walking like a duck. You've just heard a quacking noise.
Cat tells us the rumour, which does not include Jon. But she's thinking of Jon and the rumour about the beautiful young sister waiting for Ned resonates. So she puts 2 and  together and asks Ned if Ashara is Jon;s mother.

 

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Are they?? Because the rumours talk about Ned and Ashara and she starts going on about the rumours after saying that even when Ned wasn't saying nothing about the mother, the castle has no secrets.

Sorry, can;t follow you at all here. 
Yes, shes thinking about Jon. The rumours link Ashara and Ned. the rumour she tells us does not link Ashara to Jon - she told us what it was. But Cat makes that link herself.

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Cat assumes that Ashara might be the mother because the rumours quite say it and then she brings her assumptions to Ned.

Except that she explicitly and clearly told us the rumour that led to her connection and that did not include Jon. Other rumours perhaps did, or others made the same connection she made.

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Because we don't know where he left his army but it's quite clear that he should meet them at some point,

Winterfell won't do? No reason why not.

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it doesn't make sense that Ned left most of his army at KL, he expected battle and Mace's army wasn't little.

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Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

Ned left in a hurry after he and Robert fought. You don't move an entire army that quickly.
He may have taken his whole (Stark) army, he may have taken a smaller number of men also. It seems they made very quick time, like a smaller all mounted force.
Fighting the last battles of the war is likely figurative rather than literal. There is no way that he expected to defeat the full strength of Highgarden, who hadn't fought a major battle in the whole war (they defeated Robert with just their van) in battle without his allies. Mace meekly dipped his banners when Ned arrived, so its quite likely there was prior communication between them. In short, Ned knew when he left that he wasn;t going to fight major battles, just show enough strength to allow the enemy a relatively respectable surrender.

 

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What ship Ned had?? The royal fleet was all in Dragonstone and the Redwynes weren't giving none and Robert was busy building another,  there is no ship,

There are always ships. Traders etc. Starfall is on an island at the mouth of the Torrentine, they surely have a ship or two that could be hired. Really, this is getting a bit ridiculous.
ETA: in fact, amusingly ruling out your argument here, there's a SSM where GRRM explicitly says that Starfall has horse and boats, though not many. Its about Ashara not being nailed down in Starfall during the war, but it really makes a mockery of your argument that there were no possible ships Ned could use to travel away from Starfall on.

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As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

 

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Ned would've to make the voyage a horse and an army guarding Jon is safer than a... how many men do you think he'd have assigned??

He didn't have any. He explicitly left any army he had behind before he went to ToJ as he rode up to that place with just 6 companions. Its vastly easier, and safer, to hire ship or passage on a ship from Starfall to... almost anywhere, let alone KL or 

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Giving that you're talking about sending, three people, one of them a newborn, in a wartorm country, from Dorne to Winterfell i 'd say that the bigger the retinue, the safer they'll be.

There is no retinue. A ship is easier, safer and out of people eye.

[Greywater-Watch]

I am a bit lost. I thought it was R+L = J. And Ned gave Lyanna the promise in the Tower of Joy to protect Jon.

So, Jon never had a bastard son, but he carried Jon from Dorne to Winterfell.

If there was a second mysterious child born by Ashara Dayne, where would that fit in?

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't know whats going on here, but thats completely incompatible with what you just wrote, as well as being an ... hmm, whats the term?... its not a wrong conclusion, but its not a direct logical conclusion from the data. A could lead to B with other information but A does not lead to B as a direct logic conclusion. And the other information she has (age/developmental comparison) says A is incompatible with B.
If Jon was conceived at Harrenhal Catelyn couldn't possibly miss that he was considerably older than Rob, (6 months or more older).  
Having the thought that Ashara was Jon's mother does not create the thought that he was conceived at Harrenhal as a logical connection. It creates the thought that a relationship formed with Ned. But its incompatble for Jon to be conceived at Harrenhal with Jon being younger than Rob. Therefore she must follow the logic train that Ned+Ashara were a thing at Harrenhal and therefore perhaps they met again some time while Ned was campaigning, after Cat married Ned and conceived Rob, and that Jon was conceived at that second meeting on campaign, not the first meeting at Harrenhal. 

If you see a child with certain developmental abilities, but he looks too young to be able to do those things yet, then you might wonder how old that child really is. Added to that are Luwin's reassurances that "bastards grow up faster" and we might conclude that Jon is actually older than he looks. We're only looking at possibilities here, not conclusive proof.

8 hours ago, corbon said:

Note the pause between her thought and Ned telling her stuff. There is no requirement or inference that Ned must have told her that stuff the first time she saw it, only that thats how she thought of it then. Later, Ned tells her about its details and defensive attributes still works perfectly for her statement and fits the pause even better.

Again, we're only looking at alternative interpretations. You can read Catelyn's words about the first time she saw Moat Cailin two ways. Ned could have been with her when she saw it, or they could have had a conversation about it later.

Of course Ned brought his bastard home, but "when" is not explicitly explained. The only thing we do know for certain is that he was there before Catelyn's and Robb's arrival.

[Ygrain]

15 hours ago, frenin said:

snip

@corbon has already addressed your points more or less the same way I would, so I will leave it at that.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats pure fanfic. No evidence Ned was drinking. None he was with his buds (earlier he'd been with HR, but now HR is a detached observer), no indication his problem is specific to Ashara (Quiet Wolf is a generalisation, just like Wild Wolf and Young Wolf, and supports general shyness and quietness) and explicit mention that Ned was too shy to leave his bench, so yes, he was missing out on the dancing, the party.

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Ned is a quiet wolf now, just as he was then, Ned was having fun with his siblings, his buddies and bannermen,  why should he feel quiet then?? The Dancing is not the party... Robert wasn't dancing either, do you think he was missing the party?? In the hall there were different activities for the party, the dancing was just one of them.

 

 "Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

Ned was drinking and partying with his people just fine until it came to approach Ashara.

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Quiet Wolf.

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Quiet, not socially awkward wolf, Ned remained a quiet wolf to his death.

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats assuming she's even 7. When the evidence points against.
And its apples vs oranges. Robb isn't telling Bran the details of his personal relationships, dishonour and disgrace after the fact. 
And Bran is actually pretty clueless, telling us all about how Rhaegar raped Lyanna for example. A perfect case of the clueless child repeating stuff he's heard and believes, but doesn't truly understand.

The only evidence that points against that is your belief that she may be too old for marrying if she indeed was that old.

Bran never gets to reunite with Robb so he could explain himself and yet Robb still tells him things that is completely unnecesary for him to know.

Speaking of apple and oranges,  Bran is pretty clueless because he repeats the official history, where in the earth could Bran hear another version,  when has Bran met a loyalist who could give another version?? How is that comparable with a ¿kid? learning the stuff firsthand from primal sources?? 

Not even entering with the fact that you're using your belief that Lyanna wasn't raped as evidence...

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Sure. Some women buck the trend. But its still a trend, and those examples are all women unbetrothed - they don;t want a marriage or haven't had a suitable partner found yet. Buts Allyria's already betrothed. She has been for a long time, 6 years or more. Such a long betrothal when they are both well past the age of wedding and bedding, points very strongly to her youth. 

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That's the thing with trends and not rules, Allyria has been bethrothed for years,  unless she is 12 herself, she can perfectly be married, if she hasn't married is uniquely because she doesn't want to at the point.

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

The nonsensical part is the Ned was in love with Ashara but banging Wylla. Ned Dayne is too young or inexperienced to understand what that means. Its another pointer that likely Allyria is too.

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Or you know, people are humans and not walking principles and Ned being in war could once bang Wylla without feeling nothing, or  Ashara grieving for her brother could reject Ned and a butthurt Ned found solace in Wylla but that again would need that we understand that characters don't think of each other as moral walking principles. Perhaps they just believe Ned is human and there is nothing weird with that, perhaps they are more experienced that fans and have a little more cynical or realistic view of things.

There is nothing illogical about the idea, the nonsesical part comes with the logistics.

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

But people, including Barristan, make such statements based on their personal experience.
Yes, its not necessarily true, and doesn't apply to all women necessarily. But it does apply to all such women in Barristan's close experience, or he wouldn't make such an observation - its in his head, his true thoughts remember, not something he's telling someone else.  He genuinely believes this, which means it must genuinely fit his experiences.

Or that his believes are biased... Barri B was in court when Shaera Targ eloped and married her brother... And Jaeharys 2 was anything but fire, Barri B is offering an old man counsel, that doesn't mean that Ashara did it, but that most of the girls do and most fools do and most children do,  Ashara could've perfectly not do it and Barri B  life experience would be so overwhelming that he'd be saying that, that's the thing with generalizations.

 

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Ashara was burned by the actions of whoever dishonoured her. Thats not really the question. The question is who did she choose. Barristan can only believe she chose a fire man, and that fits Brandon and not Ned.
And no, thats not utterly conclusive, Barristan could be misunderstanding something. But its a really solid data point from someone who was around at the time and paying close attention to Ashara. Its infinitely more useful to us in making judgements that the rumours of Winterfell of the internally inconsistent word of a 'family member' who likely wasn't even born at the time.

Except that she wasn't as far we know, since we don't even know the reasons of her suicide, Barri B don't believe she chose the fire man.

Barri B was around Ashara and yet don't say nothing about her in that regard, only that she looked to Stark,  not even why she looked to Stark and unless Barri B was peeping, I'd say that Ashara's sister is more likely to know a thing more than him.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

All we get from teh first paragraph is that Barbrey's father would have served her up to any Stark, in the hope for a marriage. Not specifically to marry Brandon. Heck if Brandon got her pregnant her father could have had a reasonable hope that Ned would be given to her as a husband even if Brandon wasn't available.
Elsewhere we learn that Catelyn was 12 when her betrothal to Brandon was announced. That makes Brandon 14 or 15. Yet when he took Barbrey Dustin's maidenhood he told her a bloody sword is a beautiful thing.  Maybe he was 13 or 14. More likely he was a bit older, and therefore knew, though it seems Barbey did not, that he was already engaged to Cat and with such a match would not marry Barbrey even if he knocked her up.

???? Her father would've given her to any Stark but prior Brandon's bethrothal, Brandon would be a far bigger prize than Ned and why in the world would Ned ever accept such compromise?? There is nothing reasonable on that hope.

Since we don't even know when they banged and when they stopped banging because the bethrothal was announced, you're arguing your own bias here.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

No, Robert says that. "Never the boy you were" and "that one time" and "your precious honour". 
I don't know whether Ned came to Cat's bed a virgin or not. I do know that he wasn't the sort of man, or boy, to fuck em and leave em and not do right by em.

Is a relief then that Ashara may not be that kind of woman right?? Robert remembers a one time where Ned bersmiched his honor, it could not've been before marriage, because otherwise there would be no point in that.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

No assumption, her life literally was. She went from a young beauty at court to a dishonoured woman, no longer at court, with an illegitimate child, no husband or chance of one, who apparently committed suicide. How much more destroyed can you get?

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Till this point, we've never seen Ashara's name drag into the mud, as Lollys or Lysa is, we've never heard about anyone, literally anyone, that has said that she was banished from court and the idea that she didn't have a chance to find one is at this point fanfic.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Ashara specifically had the opportunity to and did look to Stark. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

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Apparently you've missed the answer,  Ashara looked to Stark in Harrenhall,  not after Harrenhall, not because she was pregnant, but in Harrenhall and in Barri B belief he might have avoid it by winning the tilt.

 

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Then why keep arguing that  people think it?

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Because i'm not arguing that and i'm baffled, i'm arguing that people think that whatever those two had, started in Harrenhall.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

We don't know that. Who was there and says anything?
We know that gossip says that was a connection at Harrenhal, but we don't know when or where that gossip started.
We saw how Catelyn came to that ideal - Jon must have a mother, he came back with Ned from the south and Starfall had this beautiful maiden waiting for Ned... Thats literally all you need. 
But then, there's also something that happened involving a Stark at Harrenhal. With Ashara. Which merely adds to the idea, without even needing to know what happened. 

Just like Cersei its entirely possible for Winterfellians to come to that idea with no actual knowledge of any of the events.

Don't even know why you keep saying like Cersei, Cersei doesn't know,  doesn't care or givse two thoughts about the events, Cersei is merely repeating a gossip she thinks it may hurt Ned.

Really?? We know how Cat came to that idea and is specifically because people whisper it. Btw how is possible that something happen involving a Stark... but absolutely anyone mentions Brandon?? 

 

"Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?
They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

 

Cat comes to that believe because people outright say it, in Agot, Cat just present us some rumours, some about the exotic dornish lady.

 

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats the rumour, Cat tells us. 

That's one of the rumours she tells us, she also tells us that a castle has no secret regarding Jon's mother, but ofc you an omit that part.

 

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Its a duck. But you're saying if it walks like a duck without it actually walking like a duck. You've just heard a quacking noise.
Cat tells us the rumour, which does not include Jon. But she's thinking of Jon and the rumour about the beautiful young sister waiting for Ned resonates. So she puts 2 and  together and asks Ned if Ashara is Jon;s mother.

We know that Cat has heard the rumours that say that Ashara is Jon's mother,  because she herself says that some were whispering and Cat unlike the rest of her family is unlikely to have left Winterfell,  we know that there were tales about those two and Harrenhall because Harwin tells us, but we somehow don't know what Winterfell thought... They were all talking about Ashara but deep down, they knew it wasn't Ashara...

 

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Sorry, can;t follow you at all here. 
Yes, shes thinking about Jon. The rumours link Ashara and Ned. the rumour she tells us does not link Ashara to Jon - she told us what it was. But Cat makes that link herself.

She outright says that regardless Ned didn't want to say nothing about the motherm the Castle is telling their own tale. And we know that she heard some whispering Ashara is the mother and we know the amount of rumours about Ashara that were running around Winterfell.

 

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Winterfell won't do? No reason why not.

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Why Winterfell and not just the North, who is going to lead them??

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Ned left in a hurry after he and Robert fought. You don't move an entire army that quickly.
He may have taken his whole (Stark) army, he may have taken a smaller number of men also. It seems they made very quick time, like a smaller all mounted force.
Fighting the last battles of the war is likely figurative rather than literal. There is no way that he expected to defeat the full strength of Highgarden, who hadn't fought a major battle in the whole war (they defeated Robert with just their van) in battle without his allies. Mace meekly dipped his banners when Ned arrived, so its quite likely there was prior communication between them. In short, Ned knew when he left that he wasn;t going to fight major battles, just show enough strength to allow the enemy a relatively respectable surrender.

Where is said that?? We don't even know what were Highgarden's numbers and especially we don't even know the numer of the men he sen  to the Trident, nor we even know if there was any communication, that's all your assumption, if there wasn't any communication, Ned would've led his army there with the intention id fighting.

 

No one is said that there was a communication but it's remarked that when Ned arrived, Mace didn't even put up a fight, which would be unlikely to be counted against him if he had already surrendered.

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

There are always ships. Traders etc. Starfall is on an island at the mouth of the Torrentine, they surely have a ship or two that could be hired. Really, this is getting a bit ridiculous.
ETA: in fact, amusingly ruling out your argument here, there's a SSM where GRRM explicitly says that Starfall has horse and boats, though not many. Its about Ashara not being nailed down in Starfall during the war, but it really makes a mockery of your argument that there were no possible ships Ned could use to travel away from Starfall on.

I could certainly play the same tune you like that much and say that given that Martin never said that Starfall has boat, merely that Dore has them, we can't be sure...

But you're right there.

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

He didn't have any. He explicitly left any army he had behind before he went to ToJ as he rode up to that place with just 6 companions. Its vastly easier, and safer, to hire ship or passage on a ship from Starfall to... almost anywhere, let alone KL or 

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Don't really think that, the waters would be anything but safe.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

There is no retinue. A ship is easier, safer and out of people eye.

It's non of that things really. Besides that a retinue would have to guard them, whether they want it or not.

[The Commentator]

Mance Raider is the person who got Lyanna pregnant. It is possible for the black brother at the tourney to have been Mance.

[Ygrain]

1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Mance Raider is the person who got Lyanna pregnant. It is possible for the black brother at the tourney to have been Mance.

Timeline issues aside: why would Lyanna have sex with a nobody she saw the first time back there, and a guy sworn never to take a wife on top of that? Wolf blood or not, that would have had to be one hell of a romantic flare to get her act like that, and funny how we never hear a single word from anyone that Lyanna even noticed the black brother (and instead we have her uncharacteristically sniffing at the song of the guy who later gave her the the QoLaB crown)

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Added to that are Luwin's reassurances that "bastards grow up faster" and we might conclude that Jon is actually older than he looks.

That statement of Luwin's gives us zero evidence as to Jon's biological age, though. It is literally impossible that a child's rate of physical growth can be sped up, slowed down or influenced in any way whatever depending upon the marital status of that child's parents.

Luwin's statement can only be understood as meaning a person's emotional or psychological growth, which can indeed be influenced by the marital status of his/her parents (in that society).