Did GRRM really say Meereen would end like Iraq?

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

Dany gave the Unsullied the chance to turn on their Masters and they took it. Of course, if only they'd known that Dany slapped a slave girl once, I'm sure they would have totally remained loyal to the Masters who enslaved them, mutilated them and forced them to kill babies and puppies.

A person who slaps their slaves isn’t any better than a typical Ghiscari master whom they would have been sold to, and they would be loyal to any master, as they are to Dany. GRRM would be the kind of writer to make it look great at first then drop in the problems. Are they really free, if they’re free to follow Dany to Westeros to help her to more power, to follow her orders unquestionably, and to die illiterate in a strange land without families? Such opportunity. We’ll see how it plays out but I wouldn’t be shocked if Dany leads them to ruination. Btw, it’s telling that they are illiterate and unable to think critically enough to do intel work, Dany knows this is a problem, and doesn’t propose a solution to it.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

If Grey Worm said "thanks for freeing us, but now we're hiring ourselves out to the highest bidder as a free company" (and there would be lots of people bidding for the services of the Unsullied ) or decided to rule Astapor for themselves,  I don't think there is very much Daenerys could do about it.  Given that they elected their own officers, chose their own names, and went on strike when Hizdahr briefly took over Meereen, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Unsullied have minds and wills of their own, just as Janissaries and Mamelukes did.

A free company huh...I don’t remember that line. I do remember Dany commanding them to choose officers. So they had to be told to do that. I also remember the Unsullied only taking action to kill the masters and didn’t make a move until Dany explicitly told them to, while holding the harpy’s fingers. Yes, they disobeyed Dany by keeping their names but rather than being an empowering moment, it’s sad. Anyway, cult followers’ thoughts on their leader are irrelevant to understanding if their leader has tyrannical tendencies. All hail Daenerys the Glorious Revolutionary Mhysa... if she sounds too good to be true she probably is. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Meerenese Conflict can end in one of two ways.  Slavery comes back after Daenerys and her forces leave the city.  She saves those she can from becoming slaves again and marches them out and wanders Essos for forty years.  To Vaes Tolloro perhaps.  The dragons get a chance to grow and she gets a chance to grow to womanhood.  Or she stays and continues reforming the entire region.  

Iraq is a simpler nut to crack. The Americans removed a dictator from power.  It had all the power because Iraq was never going to be able to defend herself.  It was a continuation of the Gulf War.  Non-Americans such as me were not supportive of the war but the US did it.  The country got destabled and the political will in the US would not accept casualties for their soldiers.  Stability could have happened sooner but the U.S. was very sensitive to casualties.  

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

A typical Ghiscari master wouldn't slap a slave.  More like burn her, rape her, flay her, or throw her to wild animals.

I see we’re at that point in the discussion where we are splitting hairs about what type of violence is worse? “Dany only slapped her slaves” is an odd defense. Unsullied were used in various ways, similar to how Dany is using them. Jorah tells the story of the Qhohorik buying them to defend the city against Dothraki. Dany asks “Why should I want Unsullied, they don’t even ride horses, and most of them are fat.” I assume that means well fed and they’re posted as guards. 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Did Daenerys steal your boyfriend or something?  You go out of your way to portray everything she does, however good, as malevolent.  

Yeah you got me, I don’t participate in Dany circlejerks, because I’m pissed at a fake character for stealing my boyfriend. It couldn’t possibly be because I’m predicting what a fake person will do and what her arc will be. 

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I see we’re at that point in the discussion where we are splitting hairs about what type of violence is worse? “Dany only slapped her slaves” is an odd defense. Unsullied were used in various ways, similar to how Dany is using them. Jorah tells the story of the Qhohorik buying them to defend the city against Dothraki. Dany asks “Why should I want Unsullied, they don’t even ride horses, and most of them are fat.” I assume that means well fed and they’re posted as guards. 

Yeah you got me, I don’t participate in Dany circlejerks, because I’m pissed at a fake character for stealing my boyfriend. It couldn’t possibly be because I’m predicting what a fake person will do and what her arc will be. 

There is a weeny bit of difference between a slap, a rape, a burning, being thrown to wild beasts, would you not agree?

And, your attitude towards this character suggests that there is something very personal at work here.

[Rose of Red Lake]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There is a weeny bit of difference between a slap, a rape, a burning, being thrown to wild beasts, would you not agree?

It’s just a signpost in the text that she isn’t as benevolent as she thinks she is, and a through line to a future scenario where she’ll probably do something worse, especially since we learn in the next book that Dany is caring less about the people murdered by dragons. Tyrion slapping Shae is also a sign he would turn into a person who murders whores. YIKES. Good thing he doesn’t have dragons. 

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And, your attitude towards this character suggests that there is something very personal at work here.

Oh that’s great, attack the psychological state of a real person in defense of a fake character. 

Maybe I don’t like tyrants. Simple as that. Who cares who I’m judging in a fictional world. I might as well pass moral judgement on a couch.

[Lord Varys]

The only 'cult-like' behavior we see in this context is actually @Rose of Red Lake 's line of argumentation. Anything Dany or any Targaryen does or says is wrong by default, and anything positive they might do or say is just a trick or a deception. You essentially seem to have no willingness to actually discuss the matter at hand. You pretend you know what the character is about and how her story is going to go, never mind that George hasn't finished the books yet. You essentially pretend to know better than the author - when you in fact know less.

And when I say George is saying nonsense when he casually reinterprets his own work then I explain what I mean. An author is bound by the text he publishes, not the words he utters in privacy or semi-public events. If his own interpretation/claims about his works do not actually accurately reflect the facts of the novels or are overly simplifying the actual narrative (for the sake of some interviewer might not even have read the books and is just using talking points he is given by informed people) then this isn't exactly something we have to take very seriously.

You clearly don't understand George's works in general nor ASoIaF in particularly very well. George doesn't create characters or families to make them monsters collectively. He also doesn't create states like Valyria or Westeros to condemn the people there collectively, never mind that the societal norms in those societies are portrayed as abominable and weird. The best example for that kind for that kind of thing would be George's story 'Starlady' which arguably takes place at one of the worst places in the manrealm yet still does not condemn all the characters living at Thisrock (although it is quite clear that there are only shitty people and less shitty people at that place, not good people).

Nowhere in his work are people collectively seen as evil - even the Others will get their reasons, and when we learn them we might even consider their actions to be justified. Individuals might be evil or villains. And even bad or twisted cultures can bring forth good individuals who overcome their cultural mindset. Daenerys Targaryen is definitely one of the most heroic characters in those books. If you want twisted/monstrous POVs then look at Arya (a child twisted into a psychopathic murderess by her war experiences), Bran (a twisted mind rapist), Tyrion (a rapist and murderer who murdered his lover and father), Victarion, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, etc. Not to mention all the non-POVs who are living monsters.

Dany certainly could become a darker character (at this point she is still nearly an angel, with, perhaps, doing as many questionable things as Robb). But unlike the POVs I mentioned above Dany has yet to reach the level of depravity we see in, say, Arya or Jaime. And there is no good reason to assume she would ever get there. Even an allegedly just guy like Stannis has done much more monstrous things by the standards of this society these people live in. And Dany is basically the only character in those books who gives a damn about others. Whose empathy for people suffering societal injustices actually caused her to make attempts to change the societal framework (rather than doing nothing as even a guy like Jon Snow insisted they do when he told Gilly to go fuck her father and leave him alone). Innocent blood being spilled with such a motivation is far more easily excused than, say, innocent blood being spilled because 'King Robb' wants to wear a crown or wants to 'avenge' or free his father when his people would actually be better served if they had been allowed to stay at home and prepare for winter.

Any innocent dying in a crusade against slavery is one innocent dying too much - but those innocents did die for a noble and commendable cause whereas people fighting the filthy little wars of the filthy little feudal lords of Westeros do mean nothing. No innocent dying in any such war had a mean meaningful death. They all died for nothing - to satisfy the petty desires of their petty lords with their petty honor.

The idea that it doesn't matter why you kill (or get people killed) is utterly wrong in story about wars and conflicts. It is the deciding factor. The only just war depicted in ASoIaF (if there is such a war) is Dany's war to free the slaves. Everything else is pointless fighting among noble pricks who don't give a damn about the majority of their 'subjects'.

As for @SeanF referencing George's statement about 'ice' and 'fire':

This is actually not a thing were he weirdly reinterpreted himself - it is quite clear that ice and cold are the worst thing imaginable in ASoIaF. That is introduced as early as the Prologue of AGoT where 'the burning cold of winter' which insidiously takes possession of a man and causes him to eventually like freezing to death is a crucial introduction of the concept.

We also see the ugliness of ice in dispassionate Roose Bolton (who essentially has eyes made of ice and is literally as cold as ice emotionally), the coldness/sternness Starks like Ned project make them appear inhuman to passionate people like Jaime (he is really haunted by that condemning look Ned gave him in the throne room). We know that fire and warmth are very much linked with passion and life and love everywhere throughout the books (from Dornish peppers to wildlings 'kissed by fire', from frozen Lyanna the cold fish ('love is sweet', as if she knew) being thawed and kindled by the passions of Rhaegar the Dragon.

Yes, passion and fire does burn people - but at least they do burn. They live. They love. They feel something. The cold people do not. We also have the red priest make that clear in their various versions. Fire is life and passion and light, and coldness and ice and winter are death. That's how it is. And that's why the great enemy in this story, the end of all life, comes as an apocalypse in ice, not in fire. No fire demons/zombies come ravage the world in a fiery apocalypse. No, death comes by ice and cold, by an eternal winter and the death of light and warmth - like it will come to our planet one day, and the galaxy, and the universe itself (if the heat death theory is going to prove right).

And that's a theme and a threat that goes back to George's very early works. Dying of the Light has this very story - a rogue planet having one great festival of light and splendor and passion and love while it passed through special star system of six sons (one red giant and five yellow stars) followed by the inevitability of an eternal winter in utter blackness. This is the story. This no yin-and-yang nonsense. No shit about fire and ice combining to create lukewarm water (who would want that). Even in 'The Ice Dragon' - where ice and coldness have an eerie and beautiful quality to them - it is clear from the start that Adara's affitinity towards coldness sets her apart from normal human beings, makes her a creature of the other world. It is a loss of magic when she loses that affinity in the end, but it also makes a whole and normal human being.

And those symbolic qualities attributed to 'ice' - like the preservation (of hatred), icy revenge, a lack of mercy and compassion, the cold-hearted consideration of different options (like Roose's betrayal of Robb), etc. - are all not exactly positive qualities. In fact, the preservation of ancient knowledge aside (although that also turns to ultimate evil in the form of the Others who likely know a lot about what happened in the Age of Heroes and the Long Night) I don't recall a single positive 'icy trait' (and sometimes forgetting something cleans the slate and allows to start anew, without being troubled by the burdens of the past) - whereas it is quite clear that fire's attributes are overwhelming positive. Although it is also quite clear that passion can also lead to harm, just as (dragon)fire can also used to do evil things.

Although one has to say that Dany, while being a Targaryen by birth, doesn't have many fiery traits. She rarely has passionate outbursts that inform or define her actions - instead whenever she does something important and succeeds she always rather coldly calculates her chances and goes through with the thing with a stoic or icy coldness. Even her romantic and sexual passions are ruled by cold reasons of state in ADwD.

And that's a theme and a threat that goes back to George's very early works. Dying of the Light has this very story - a rogue planet having one great festival of light and splendor and passion and love while it passed through special star system of six sons (one red giant and five yellow stars) followed by the inevitability of an eternal winter in utter blackness. This is the story. This no yin-and-yang nonsense. No shit about fire and ice combining to create lukewarm water (who would want that). Even in 'The Ice Dragon' - where ice and coldness have an eerie and beautiful quality to them - it is clear from the start that Adara's affitinity towards coldness sets her apart from normal human beings, makes her a creature of the other world. It is a loss of magic when she loses that affinity in the end, but it also makes a whole and normal human being.

If you asked George whether he would drink from the cup of fire or the cup of ice, he most definitely would drink from the cup of fire. That's what he did throughout his entire literary career.

[Roswell]

Did GRRM really say Meereen would end like Iraq?  

 He was high on moldy weed if he said something that silly.

Meereen is a rescue mission to help bring freedom to a quarter million slaves within the walls of the city.  It is also a world building exercise to stop slavery.  Iraq was a conflict brought on by bad feelings between George Bush and Saddam Hussein.  GB made the wrong assumption about weapons of mass destruction and justified the war as a necessary move to safeguard his country.  Not the same thing at all.

[Moiraine Sedai]

17 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Did GRRM really say Meereen would end like Iraq?  

 He was high on moldy weed if he said something that silly.

Meereen is a rescue mission to help bring freedom to a quarter million slaves within the walls of the city.  It is also a world building exercise to stop slavery.  Iraq was a conflict brought on by bad feelings between George Bush and Saddam Hussein.  GB made the wrong assumption about weapons of mass destruction and justified the war as a necessary move to safeguard his country.  Not the same thing at all.

The war in Meereen is the same struggle to free slaves as it was in Egypt when Moses came along.

[Rose of Red Lake]

20 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Did GRRM really say Meereen would end like Iraq?  

 He was high on moldy weed if he said something that silly.

Meereen is a rescue mission to help bring freedom to a quarter million slaves within the walls of the city.  It is also a world building exercise to stop slavery.  Iraq was a conflict brought on by bad feelings between George Bush and Saddam Hussein.  GB made the wrong assumption about weapons of mass destruction and justified the war as a necessary move to safeguard his country.  Not the same thing at all.

The Iraq War was also described as a "rescue mission" for Iraqis suffering human rights abuses and a "worldbuilding exercise" for democracy. Can you think of some different slogans, I'm having 2002 flashbacks and I dont think the author intended to be that explicit (although he must have been writing Dany's ADWD chapters after all that went down).

I realized that the author seems to be interested in writing about idealistic movements that lose sight of what justice means. The Brotherhood without Banners started as a populist resistance to protect the smallfolk, which took a decidedly dark turn in the hands of a ruthless, righteous leader who can't see right from wrong anymore. So I see parallels between BwB and Daenerys already starting.

[Wall Flower]

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The Iraq War was also described as a "rescue mission" for Iraqis suffering human rights abuses and a "worldbuilding exercise" for democracy. Can you think of some different slogans, I'm having 2002 flashbacks and I dont think the author intended to be that explicit (although he must have been writing Dany's ADWD chapters after all that went down).

I realized that the author seems to be interested in writing about idealistic movements that lose sight of what justice means. The Brotherhood without Banners started as a populist resistance to protect the smallfolk, which took a decidedly dark turn in the hands of a ruthless, righteous leader who can't see right from wrong anymore. So I see parallels between BwB and Daenerys already starting.

That's at least a more interesting way to look at a possible arc for Dany but you would have to acknowledge that she starts out with genuinely righteous anger about the brutality of slavery when she is forced to confront it and a determination to do something about it that does have an heroic element.

[Texas Hold Em]

On 1/6/2020 at 7:26 PM, The Transporter said:

Did GRRM really say Meereen would end like Iraq?  

 He was high on moldy weed if he said something that silly.

Meereen is a rescue mission to help bring freedom to a quarter million slaves within the walls of the city.  It is also a world building exercise to stop slavery.  Iraq was a conflict brought on by bad feelings between George Bush and Saddam Hussein.  GB made the wrong assumption about weapons of mass destruction and justified the war as a necessary move to safeguard his country.  Not the same thing at all.

Because George is not that naive on politics.  George is not a complete pacifists.  The war in Slaver's Bay is more justified than any other conflict in the story.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Because George is not that naive on politics.  George is not a complete pacifists.  The war in Slaver's Bay is more justified than any other conflict in the story.

One could even say that it is the only war justified in the story if we take modern standards - because pointless 'wars of succession' among various branches of royal houses and wars of secession done to satisfy the petty honor and ambition of 'wronged aristocrats' are no longer seen as justified wars in our modern day and age.

[Rose of Red Lake]

9 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

That's at least a more interesting way to look at a possible arc for Dany but you would have to acknowledge that she starts out with genuinely righteous anger about the brutality of slavery when she is forced to confront it and a determination to do something about it that does have an heroic element.

Well yeah, everyone knows Dany is angry at the slave masters and she's a hero to her followers. Her most heroic act was freeing the bed slaves in Yunkai which didn't contribute much to her own power. That still doesn't mean readers should shut off their brains regarding this character and stop being vigilant of people in power. There are major contradictions in this heroic image and in the POV. Her sudden anger about slavery is convenient (slaves never bothered her before), she allows people to sell themselves back into slavery and takes a profit from it, she enslaved the masters instead (if Xaro is to be believed, but she doesn't deny it), a slaver was her closest advisor, and she's using people as her training wheels in ruling Westeros. Which must be good practice since the bad guys in Westeros are clearly marked by hairstyle and clothing, which makes for easy burnin'

[Lord Varys]

Regarding to the slavery issue I stumbled on the very quote from Fevre Dream that can be read as George's very own comment both on slavery in the US and, being written about 20 before ASoS, also as a comment on slavery in Essos (especially, of course, in the cities of Slaver's Bay).

Note the context of this quote. Abner Marsh, the protagonist of the books saying this to his black cook, a former slave he freed after he bought him, isn't an abolitionist. He is just a steamboat captain doing his trade in many slaver states and he usually doesn't want to antagonize his customers (or have trouble in general). But just before he says that, his vampire friend told him the history of his race (the vampires in the book are a humanoid race secretly living beside humanity, not undead monsters), pointing out to him that his people drink blood and kill because they must, because 'the red thirst' has them in their grips once a month, and they cannot help themselves. But nobody forced humanity to enslave other human beings. This apparently has a tremendous effect on his point of view on the slavery issue:

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“You know I never held much with slavery, even if I never done much against it neither. I would of, but those damned abolitionists were such Bible-thumpers. Only I been thinkin’, and it seems to me maybe they was right after all. You can’t just go . . . usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended.”

This foreshadows both the American Civil War and Daenerys Targaryen's war to end slavery in Essos.

And it is quite clear that George doesn't think it is not worth killing and dying for the goal to end slavery. Far the opposite, actually.

Dany has been against slavery since she learned how the Dothraki treated her slaves, all the way back in AGoT. She claimed others as her slaves to protect them, including Mirri Maz Duur, and she freed all the slaves she had when she hatched her dragon eggs.

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Regarding to the slavery issue I stumbled on the very quote from Fevre Dream that can be read as George's very own comment both on slavery in the US and, being written about 20 before ASoS, also as a comment on slavery in Essos (especially, of course, in the cities of Slaver's Bay).

Note the context of this quote. Abner Marsh, the protagonist of the books saying this to his black cook, a former slave he freed after he bought him, isn't an abolitionist. He is just a steamboat captain doing his trade in many slaver states and he usually doesn't want to antagonize his customers (or have trouble in general). But just before he says that, his vampire friend told him the history of his race (the vampires in the book are a humanoid race secretly living beside humanity, not undead monsters), pointing out to him that his people drink blood and kill because they must, because 'the red thirst' has them in their grips once a month, and they cannot help themselves. But nobody forced humanity to enslave other human beings. This apparently has a tremendous effect on his point of view on the slavery issue:

The foreshadows both the American Civil War and Daenerys Targaryen's war to end slavery in Essos.

And it is quite clear that George doesn't think it is not worth killing and dying for the goal to end slavery. Far the opposite, actually.

Dany has been against slavery since she learned how the Dothraki treated her slaves, all the way back in AGoT. She claimed others as her slaves to protect them, including Mirri Maz Duur, and she freed all the slaves she had when she hatched her dragon eggs.

Just because you don't immediately realise something is wrong, it does not follow that you are a hypocrite when you subsequently condemn it.  I once went to a church whose first vicar was a reformed slave trader. Most of us form our moral beliefs based on personal experience, rather than working them out in the abstract. 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Just because you don't immediately realise something is wrong, it does not follow that you are a hypocrite when you subsequently condemn it.  I once went to a church whose first vicar was a reformed slave trader. Most of us form our moral beliefs based on personal experience, rather than working them out in the abstract. 

Yeah, I mean that is the point of that scene. Part of the book is about the depiction of slavery and how the development of the character changed his view on slavery. I just wanted to give a little bit of context to the guy in question for people who haven't read the book.

We don't know whether Dany had any issues with the slavery she must have witnessed in the Three Daughters and Volantis and the other Free Cities (or the way the Pentoshi still sort of cling to slavery) but we very much see her being abhorred by Dothraki slavery as seen in their wars. That got her thinking, leading first to the abolishment of slavery among her own, and then to her actions in Slaver's Bay.

And, to be sure, I had no idea how bad the American slavery were until I watched 'Django Unchained' and looked up some of the things depicted therein.

That is how George seems to be sympathize with those dreamers of his - it is not a crime/bad to be born in a shitty culture, it is wrong to not reflect on the culture and to not try to change it if you can.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, I mean that is the point of that scene. Part of the book is about the depiction of slavery and how the development of the character changed his view on slavery. I just wanted to give a little bit of context to the guy in question for people who haven't read the book.

We don't know whether Dany had any issues with the slavery she must have witnessed in the Three Daughters and Volantis and the other Free Cities (or the way the Pentoshi still sort of cling to slavery) but we very much see her being abhorred by Dothraki slavery as seen in their wars. That got her thinking, leading first to the abolishment of slavery among her own, and then to her actions in Slaver's Bay.

And, to be sure, I had no idea how bad the American slavery were until I watched 'Django Unchained' and looked up some of the things depicted therein.

That is how George seems to be sympathize with those dreamers of his - it is not a crime/bad to be born in a shitty culture, it is wrong to not reflect on the culture and to not try to change it if you can.

And, American slavery was on the milder end of the Spectrum, compared to what Martin depicts in Slavers Bay. But, yes, it is horrible reading even "good" slavers dealing out whippings, brandings, beatings, as routine, anything short of murder or permanent maiming.