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Black Crow

Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

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5 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

In this case we know they weren't rushed. HBO wanted at least 2 more seasons and obviously were ready to greenlight even more.

Yes, there is good money in all that dragon stuff.  Hence, the spinoffs.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/6/2020 at 11:26 PM, Mace Cooterian said:

@Melifeather I'm surprised that no one has responded to this post.  I think it offers a few unique (and direct) synopsis of one Bran Sky Walker.

I fell that the we end ADWD with Bran somewhere between stage 7 and 9.  He certainty has passed stage 6 (trials on the road) and he is working towards stage 10 (apotheosis - greater understanding).  I think he has passed stage 7 with the 3EC and may very well have passed stage 9; but question what atonement he has received.

That only leaves stage 8 (the temptress) and not sure what this means; other than Mel's vision in the fire with the possibility of Bran staring back at her.

Thank you. My intention was to return and insert examples for Jon, Bran, and Arya, and maybe Daenerys, under each phase to see if GRRM was following the Hero's Journey - which I want to stress isn't a single work of fiction, but rather a pattern Joseph Campbell had noticed with ancient storytelling - but I haven't found the time yet. His theory was that there weren't hundreds of hero myths, but rather one myth that each storyteller elaborated upon, putting their own personal spin on it, adding details to make their telling more interesting to their audience. I'm not sure if he personally thought all the myths were inspired by a single original true story or simply a formula for what seems to constitute a great story? As you hinted at, Star Wars follows the Hero's Journey and it's actually cited as an example if anyone should research Joseph Campbell's theory.

As for Bran - so far the only "temptress" that has caught his eye is Meera. Bran frequently thinks of Meera in a romantic manner, and I suspect that he will be tempted to leave the cave of skulls to be with her.

Edited by Melifeather

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No gods walking on Westeros green and pleasant land sez GRRM.

I still think that his line about turning to magic first to try and restore his legs and then for its own sake is coming to pass.

When he finally made it into the Heart of Darkness, Kurz told him that he would never walk again but he would fly. Now he is learning magic and he has been warned not to bring back the dead...

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42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

No gods walking on Westeros green and pleasant land sez GRRM.

I still think that his line about turning to magic first to try and restore his legs and then for its own sake is coming to pass.

When he finally made it into the Heart of Darkness, Kurz told him that he would never walk again but he would fly. Now he is learning magic and he has been warned not to bring back the dead...

The warnings about not bringing back the dead does seem to confirm that it is possible. I think we all expect that greenseers will have powers at their command - surely more than simply watching and learning the past, present, and future.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, alienarea said:

That would have caused issues with the growth of younger actors in real life, Isaac Hempstead-Wright comes to mind. And, the quality of the released sample chapters and their protagonists didn't fit either. Arianne Martell, not in the show. Barristan Selmy, already dead. Sansa Stark, not in the Vale anymore. Stannis Baratheon (from Theon IV), already dead.

Their previous decisions forced a rushed end.

It didn't force them to rush it at much as it was though. Season 8 was 30 episodes of material crammed into 6 episodes. 

If they had chosen to, they could have ended the main storyline after like season 9 and the fans would have still watched a few seasons of fan fiction with different characters afterwards. Game of Thrones had the popularity to do what the Walking Dead people are trying to do. Literally go 30+ seasons with a revolving door of a storyline+cast.

Edited by QhorinQuarterhand

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11 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

It didn't force them to rush it at much as it was though. Season 8 was 30 episodes of material crammed into 6 episodes. 

If they had chosen to, they could have ended the main storyline after like season 9 and the fans would have still watched a few seasons of fan fiction with different characters afterwards. Game of Thrones had the popularity to do what the Walking Dead people are trying to do. Literally go 30+ seasons with a revolving door of a storyline+cast.

I’m actually still enjoying the Walking Dead! I cannot wait until Negan kills Alpha!

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

No gods walking on Westeros green and pleasant land sez GRRM.

I still think that his line about turning to magic first to try and restore his legs and then for its own sake is coming to pass.

When he finally made it into the Heart of Darkness, Kurz told him that he would never walk again but he would fly. Now he is learning magic and he has been warned not to bring back the dead...

Now THIS is interesting! 

I can't think of anyone Bran would try to bring back before Ned. 

I suddenly have the urge to read Heart of Darkness. 

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On 3/9/2020 at 8:30 PM, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Now THIS is interesting! 

I can't think of anyone Bran would try to bring back before Ned. 

I suddenly have the urge to read Heart of Darkness. 

Hello All!

What about Jon?

 

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12 hours ago, Eira777 said:

Hello All!

What about Jon?

 

Now THAT would be interesting!  :thumbsup:

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14 hours ago, Eira777 said:

Hello All!

What about Jon?

 

His name was Jon it rhymes with gone.

Seriously, I'm against resurrections. Do you want to start another homo-erotic pain cult?

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Posted (edited)

I think it’s possible for this to be fundamentally a story about Winterfell’s children and R+L=J. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive concepts. 

Furthermore, stories grow in the telling. That initial letter is far different in many respects - Catelyn dying at the hands of the Others for instance.

A few theories I have contemplated over the years have started to mesh together, and I am curious to everyone’s thoughts:

I am firmly convinced that Euron is the same person as Urrathon Nightwalker, who has a glass candle that is burning in Qarth. He had to have had a home base somewhere during his exile from the Iron Islands, he has a known proclivity for rare artifacts, and his having Pyat Pree puts him in the immediate vicinity (within a fortnight) of Qarth. 

He was exiled from the Islands and sailed the world, yes? If memory recalls, it was approximately two years before Theon arrived back at the Islands. If this is incorrect please advise! 
 

Where did he go? I am speculating that he went North, to the lands of always winter, in search of what he saw in a vision. I agree that Euron appears to be an attempt by the Three Eyed raven to find a green seer.   Anyone have any idea if Iton Islanders have first men lineage?  Would this also coincide with the Others returning? Approximately a year before the start of Game?

I, too, am wondering if he is the “Nights king”, blowing the horn of winter from atop the Hightower, and then stealing one of Dany’s dragons with the dragon horn. This may be the badly botched part from the tv show.
 

Edited by Lady Rhodes
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11 hours ago, alienarea said:

His name was Jon it rhymes with gone.

Seriously, I'm against resurrections. Do you want to start another homo-erotic pain cult?

Well I think it’s left a bit open at the end of the novel as to whether or not he’s gone gone.  Of course, if he’s gone into the rocks and trees etc, he’s not really gone at all, in the way that Westeros has of keeping things.  So resurrecting him isn’t exactly a matter of resurrection, per se.  

but I can see your aversion to it.  And the fact that it’s done in a variety of ways that yield some fairly unworkable and unsavory outcomes makes me think that the warning isn’t unfounded.  That Dany managed to actually hatch dragons demonstrates the difference (and what makes it work, imo).  In Jon’s case if it’s necessary and attempted, I wonder whether it will be successful or not.  Though I suspect it would, and Bran may have some advantage because of his weirnet access.  Though not everyone agrees with me on this.

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8 hours ago, Eira777 said:

Well I think it’s left a bit open at the end of the novel as to whether or not he’s gone gone.  Of course, if he’s gone into the rocks and trees etc, he’s not really gone at all, in the way that Westeros has of keeping things.  So resurrecting him isn’t exactly a matter of resurrection, per se.  

but I can see your aversion to it.  And the fact that it’s done in a variety of ways that yield some fairly unworkable and unsavory outcomes makes me think that the warning isn’t unfounded.  That Dany managed to actually hatch dragons demonstrates the difference (and what makes it work, imo).  In Jon’s case if it’s necessary and attempted, I wonder whether it will be successful or not.  Though I suspect it would, and Bran may have some advantage because of his weirnet access.  Though not everyone agrees with me on this.

Do you think it will require a blood sacrifice to the weirwoods in order to resurrect him?

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Do you think it will require a blood sacrifice to the weirwoods in order to resurrect him?

It could be one method.  I don’t think Thoros uses that with Beric, however.  But I can see how some characters think it’s necessary.  Mirri Maz Dur believes it is, she says only death can pay for life, but something’s missing when she resurrects Drogo.  (By intention or not?)  Melisandre would probably go with the blood method, after a fashion.  
 

its possible also that Bran wouldn’t need to get involved at all, as it’s probably just as easy for Jon to go into Ghost and get a second life that way, you know?

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I think that too much of this discussion [and I'm talking about the wider discussion rather than this thread] is too narrow in its scope.

In literary terms, what is the point of Jon? For the faithful its all about R+L=J and a lost Targaryen prince who will draw the flaming sword from the stone, mount a dragon and as Azor Ahai come again will slay the icy hordes and turn back Winter. Sorted. 

Resurrection in this scenario, whether or not as guilt-free as the Mummers' version, is just a bump in the road and at best the qualifier for his Azor Ahai status. What I'm arguing is that its something much more fundamental.

This story is about the children of Winterfell, not the Targaryen succession, and we have a mystery about Winterfell and what lies beneath - deeper than speculation about wedding cloaks, musty parchments, harps and anything else calculated to prove R+L=J. There is a purpose to Jon's death and I reckon its integral to the Stark mystery and the apparent connection to Winter and perhaps the blue eyed lot. 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

In literary terms, what is the point of Jon

He is a messianic figure. Death, resurrection and savior trope.

that said, I think he is going to have to do something abhorrent in order to be the savior. My bet is that Dany is Nissa Nissa and he kills her to forge a new Lightbringer. However! I think Nissa Nissa is the female Other in the stories of the Night’s King. It is a loop that will continue. 

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Oh I can easily see him slaying her, but by way of destroying a terrible threat.

She is Azor Ahai, but as the old heretic joke goes, it is not going to be a case of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but rather of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that too much of this discussion [and I'm talking about the wider discussion rather than this thread] is too narrow in its scope.

In literary terms, what is the point of Jon? For the faithful its all about R+L=J and a lost Targaryen prince who will draw the flaming sword from the stone, mount a dragon and as Azor Ahai come again will slay the icy hordes and turn back Winter. Sorted. 

Resurrection in this scenario, whether or not as guilt-free as the Mummers' version, is just a bump in the road and at best the qualifier for his Azor Ahai status. What I'm arguing is that its something much more fundamental.

This story is about the children of Winterfell, not the Targaryen succession, and we have a mystery about Winterfell and what lies beneath - deeper than speculation about wedding cloaks, musty parchments, harps and anything else calculated to prove R+L=J. There is a purpose to Jon's death and I reckon its integral to the Stark mystery and the apparent connection to Winter and perhaps the blue eyed lot. 

My personal theory is that the Children of the Forest are trying to "right" a past wrong which was resurrecting the Last Hero before he could go into the trees, rocks, and streams. They did it in order to defeat the Others and prevent them from taking Winterfell. Time was placed into a continual loop so that Brandon Stark would never join the godhead. Every time his physical body died another one was created. The natural cycle of birth, growth, maturity, and death was interrupted, and death is needed before regeneration can birth a new cycle. By capturing the last Brandon Stark and making him a greenseer at such a young age, they may have already prevented a new Brandon Stark from ever being born. His body needs to be preserved long enough to remove the time loop and let nature take it's course. The Others need to be allowed to take Winterfell, and Brandon Stark needs to be allowed to die and go into the godhead.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Oh I can easily see him slaying her, but by way of destroying a terrible threat.

She is Azor Ahai, but as the old heretic joke goes, it is not going to be a case of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but rather of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons

I have heard that take before. I am just inclined to think it is a repeating loop. And the Others returned prior to the dragons returning, so it isn’t exact

Edited by Lady Rhodes

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