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Angel Eyes

Do the Baratheons follow the same rules as the Targaryens when it comes to succession?

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So we know that women are barred from sitting the Iron Throne by the Great Council of 101 AC and events like the Dance of the Dragons turning people off on the idea of a female ruler. But say if events transpired where nobody figured out that Robert's "children" were illegitimate and yet Joffrey and Tommen were dead or unable to rule. Who would the throne pass to? Myrcella, if the decision of the Great Council is scrapped? Or Stannis?

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25 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So we know that women are barred from sitting the Iron Throne by the Great Council of 101 AC and events like the Dance of the Dragons turning people off on the idea of a female ruler. But say if events transpired where nobody figured out that Robert's "children" were illegitimate and yet Joffrey and Tommen were dead or unable to rule. Who would the throne pass to? Myrcella, if the decision of the Great Council is scrapped? Or Stannis?

Women are not barred from the Iron Throne per se, there is just a tendency to put them and their descendants behind the male scions of the royal family. There were quite a few female presumptive heirs to the Iron Throne (Aerea to both Maegor and Jaehaerys I, Princess Rhaenys was second in line to the Iron Throne, then there is Rhaenyra as heir apparent, Baela and Rhaena are Aegon III's presumptive heirs until Viserys returns from Lys, and Aelora Targaryen was even heir apparent to the Iron Throne and Princess of Dragonstone during the later half of the reign of Aerys I.

That said, it is quite clear that the lords speaking against Rhaena or Aerea or Rhaenys or Rhaenys (and her descendants) or Rhaenyra would also have been opposed to the idea of Myrcella or Shireen (if we imagine Stannis became king) taking the throne.

The Great Councils didn't discuss the succession of House Targaryen, they discussed the succession of the Iron Throne. They don't care whether the woman deluding herself into believing she could rule over manly male lords has blond hair or black hair...

We do know, however, that Myrcella is very much Tommen's presumptive heir. There is nobody else. Just as Shireen is the only heir Stannis has. There is nobody else there, either.

Stannis also saw Shireen sort of as his heir and not Renly. So we can be pretty sure Robert and Cersei would also have preferred Myrcella to Stannis or Renly. And this wouldn't have been a big issue, considering Stannis is massively unpopular guy.

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In a neutral world, Stannis would most likely have been the heir if Joffrey and Tommen died without issue. We have seen countless times of how hard it is to be a female heir, how people try to steal or subvert a woman's inheritance. The most famous being that after Baelor died his three sisters were passed over for their uncle Viserys. Looking at the Stark family tree, it seems likely that Sansa and Serena Stark, the heirs to their father by law, were either forced or pressured into marrying their half-uncles.

In practice, I'm sure that Cersei and Tywin would make sure that Myrcella succeeded her brothers instead of Stannis. 

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10 hours ago, CassieSol919 said:

In a neutral world, Stannis would most likely have been the heir if Joffrey and Tommen died without issue. We have seen countless times of how hard it is to be a female heir, how people try to steal or subvert a woman's inheritance. The most famous being that after Baelor died his three sisters were passed over for their uncle Viserys. Looking at the Stark family tree, it seems likely that Sansa and Serena Stark, the heirs to their father by law, were either forced or pressured into marrying their half-uncles.

In practice, I'm sure that Cersei and Tywin would make sure that Myrcella succeeded her brothers instead of Stannis. 

Daena and her sisters were pushed aside because they were imprisoned throughout their brother's reign. They were in a singularly bad position to try to claim the throne - although it is actually more likely that King Baelor simply named his uncle his heir and successor after he had annulled his marriage, imprisoned his sisters, and taken a septon's vows. Because that would have meant that the king would never have heirs of his body and his court would have wanted to know who would succeed Baelor upon his death (if Viserys I had to rule on his succession as a man in his twenties two years after he had taken the throne, I see no way for Baelor to ignore the question of his own succession throughout his reign - especially not after the Dance of the Dragons).

The Starks have 8,000 years of precedents against female inheritance since there was never a ruling Queen of Winter or Queen in the North. I rather assume that Sansa and Serena were thrown a bone and given an opportunity to participate in the rule of their half-uncles (who would have been Cregan's chosen heirs) than this being a way to steal their birthrights (which nobody would have though was theirs, anyway).

Also, Cregan was having too many heirs - while nobody would likely support a female Stark against a male Stark this might not be true for male children of Sansa's and Serena's further down the line - meaning it was seen as advantageous if said children were also the children of Cregan's chosen heirs.

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The "iron precedent" was said to exclude not only female heirs, but the inheritance passing through a woman to her male descendant. Since Robert is only able to claim royal blood via his grandmother, the Baratheons are implicitly not following that rule.

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On 2/23/2020 at 2:55 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

The "iron precedent" was said to exclude not only female heirs, but the inheritance passing through a woman to her male descendant. Since Robert is only able to claim royal blood via his grandmother, the Baratheons are implicitly not following that rule.

Can see your point. But after securing a male ruler the lords will still rather choose an uncle over the daughter of a king. Depending on who the uncle or the daughter is. If it was Stannis and Myrcella, than most lords would go for Stannis over Myrcella since he is a proven commander, and much older and experienced. 

It is also possible that Robert wouldve inherited the throne peacefully if all of Aerys’s descendants died. Making Robert next in line. 

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6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

 

It is also possible that Robert wouldve inherited the throne peacefully if all of Aerys’s descendants died. Making Robert next in line. 

That does seem to be the case. Jaehaerys and Shaera had no children other than Aerys and Rhaella, Duncan had renounced all claim, Daeron was KIA and unmarried anyways, and Rhaelle was Robert's grandmother.

I am curious as to the fates of such characters as Maester Aemon's sisters Daella and Rhae. I personally believe that all record of those branches of the family was lost in the Tragedy of Summerhall.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I am curious as to the fates of such characters as Maester Aemon's sisters Daella and Rhae. I personally believe that all record of those branches of the family was lost in the Tragedy of Summerhall.

I expect Daella to have married Dunk and their daughter being Brienne's grandmother and Selwyn Tarth's mother - explaining that talk about recent ties between the Tarths and the Targaryens. It would be very odd if the Targaryens and Dunk were independently connected to the Tarths.

The question of Rhae is rather interesting, though. There could still be some descendants of her around ... or they might all be dead. Some might even have died at Summerhall, as may have Vaella the Simple, Princess Daenora, or Prince Maegor - and/or whatever children they had. If Princess Rhaelle didn't die giving birth to Steffon (not unlikely considering that he seems to have been an only child) she may have burned at Summerhall, too.

And we still don't know whether Duncan and Jenny had any children ... and if so, what happened to them. They might still be out there, obscure cousins with no claim to the throne.

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Well, no, the Baratheons follow the rule of the strongest gets the chair.  They haven't established any rule.  They broke the rule of the last dynasty and they failed to carry out a succession after the death of Robert.  Both brothers as well as others contested for the throne.  The Lannisters took it by deceit and corruption.  So it is not really fair to say the stags had any kind of rules.  The throne is up for grabs.  Rules and traditions are broken.  Everything is debatable by force now.  

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On 2/24/2020 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

I expect Daella to have married Dunk and their daughter being Brienne's grandmother and Selwyn Tarth's mother - explaining that talk about recent ties between the Tarths and the Targaryens. It would be very odd if the Targaryens and Dunk were independently connected to the Tarths.

Dunk was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, which is inconsistent with marriage. Was he a widower when he joined? I don't think I recall such an example, although Fireball hoped to join after having his wife take vows.

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19 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Dunk was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, which is inconsistent with marriage. Was he a widower when he joined? I don't think I recall such an example, although Fireball hoped to join after having his wife take vows.

It would be the idea that he was a widower when he joined. Dunk has no intention of joining the KG as he makes clear throughout the three novellas we have so far, and I certainly cannot see him join the KG during the reign of Maekar when one of the duties of the KG would be to protect Aerion Brightflame ... not to mention the prospect of him serving and protecting either a King Daeron III the Drunk or a King Aerion I.

He could join the KG during the reign of Aerys I, I guess, but I don't see him doing that while Rhaegel is still alive and Heir Apparent, although it could happen in the later years of the reign of Aerys I while Prince Aelor and later Princess Aelora were Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne. If they had inherited the throne, the line of Maekar would not have gotten closer to it.

But then - chances are that Dunk & Egg continue their travels throughout the reign of Aerys, possibly with spending some time in-between at Summerhall and King's Landing. After all, in AKotSK George revealed Dunk & Egg would also go to Essos and the Free Cities, indicating their travels might take longer than they originally thought (although I'd like it if they were some visits at court in-between - I'd really like to see them meet Aerys I, Rhaegel, Bloodraven, Shiera, Aelor, and Aelora at court - and meet Maekar, Daella, and Rhae at Summerhall or in KL in one of the next stories).

My personal guess is that Dunk and Daella (who is older than Egg and thus closer in age to Dunk) fall for each other after they meet at Summerhall or at court during a story. And after Egg has fallen for Betha and decided that he would eventually marry her, dissolving his betrothal to Daella in the process, Dunk ends up marrying Daella around the time Egg marries Betha (in 220 AC, a year before the death of Aerys I and a year after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion) in part because this is a love match, in part because Dunk (and Egg) proved their mettle during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, possibly saving the life of King Aerys I, Maekar, Bloodraven, etc. in the process of that, and in part to prevent Aerion (who really seems to have wanted to marry a sister) from claiming Daella's hand in marriage in place of Egg.

Then one can have Dunk and Daella living together more or less happily at court with Maekar and Egg or perhaps have them settle at Pennytree, explaining how the village became a royal fief. Daella eventually dies in childbirth or of some other reason late in Maekar's reign or perhaps only after the Great Council after which a grieving Dunk decides to join the Kingsguard to protect his friend Egg and help him rule (I also expect Dunk to serve Aegon V as Hand, at least in his later reign). Dunk and Daella's daughter is raised at court and eventually marries the Evenstar of Tarth, becoming Selwyn's mother. She wears her father's colors and takes one of his shields with him.

That's all very speculative, of course, but I think it would make a very fine story for Dunk.

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