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sweetsunray

Understanding MMD - a re-examination of her intentions

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In general, I think that just tolerating, profiting from, turning a blind eye to injustice, if one lives in the Astapors, Yunkais, and Meereens of this world, is a far greater danger than falling for the spin of a revolutionary.

Dany did tolerate slavery as the price of the Iron Throne. Dany did profit from slavery by taking a tax on it. Dany is turning a blind eye by taking slaves to fight for her own self interests on another continent, with an even bigger ego than before: she has convinced herself that she has to live up to the Valyrian supremacy of Viserys. The slavery storyline just seems to be there for Dany's development into someone who has learned that violence is the best way to solve problems, and can't adapt. Dany heroically fighting Teh Evil wherever it exists doesn't seem like the kind of story we're reading. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany did tolerate slavery as the price of the Iron Throne. Dany did profit from slavery by taking a tax on it. Dany is turning a blind eye by taking slaves to fight for her own self interests on another continent, with an even bigger ego than before: she has convinced herself that she has to live up to the Valyrian supremacy of Viserys. The slavery storyline just seems to be there for Dany's development into someone who has learned that violence is the best way to solve problems, and can't adapt. Dany heroically fighting Teh Evil wherever it exists doesn't seem like the kind of story we're reading. 

Dany took slaves at Mirri's village to stop them from being raped and murdered.  And freed them before stepping onto the pyre.  She tried to harden her heart to what was taking place, but could not.

She allowed (stupidly) some highborn Meereenese to sell themselves into slavery, to a trader of Qarth.  Her attitude was that she would respect their decisions, not that she was hoping to get 5% out of it.

And, no, she's not taking slaves to fight for her.  That's not in the books.

 

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany took slaves at Mirri's village to stop them from being raped and murdered.  And freed them before stepping onto the pyre.  She tried to harden her heart to what was taking place, but could not.

She allowed (stupidly) some highborn Meereenese to sell themselves into slavery, to a trader of Qarth.  Her attitude was that she would respect their decisions, not that she was hoping to get 5% out of it.

And, no, she's not taking slaves to fight for her.  That's not in the books.

Dany's response to Jorah when he proposed selling child slaves into brothels was "This is the price of the IT." She convinced herself a long time ago that she would tolerate a certain level of violence as long as she benefits from it by getting the throne. 

At a certain point these contradictions can't be defended any more,  and we all know she's not going to stay and build a great public works program for the Unsullied. She benefits by having minimal long-term plans for Meereen, by giving them no other option but to fight for her. We know that's going to happen.  

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Dany convinced herself to tolerate a certain level of violence to achieve her goals, yes. And so did Robb, Jon, or anyone who decides to fight/go to war, regardless of how noble or vile their reasons for fighting/going to war may or may not be.

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15 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany's response to Jorah when he proposed selling child slaves into brothels was "This is the price of the IT." She convinced herself a long time ago that she would tolerate a certain level of violence as long as she benefits from it by getting the throne. 

At a certain point these contradictions can't be defended any more,  and we all know she's not going to stay and build a great public works program for the Unsullied. She benefits by having minimal long-term plans for Meereen, by giving them no other option but to fight for her. We know that's going to happen.  

You're ignoring how the rest of that scene at Mirri's village played out.

I grant you, she's not signed the Unsullied up to the Working Time Directive.

 

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Dany convinced herself to tolerate a certain level of violence to achieve her goals, yes. And so did Robb, Jon, or anyone who decides to fight/go to war, regardless of how noble or vile their reasons for fighting/going to war may or may not be.

That's just what Dany would love to hear. More excuses for her actions without a need to reflect on them, and convenient moral relativism just so she can continue living out Viserys' fantasies. In fact I can even see Jorah coming up with this excuse in text.

Have her compromise ideals for self-interest then make her the only character who has megaton bombs - a great way to develop a threat to Westeros.

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44 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany's response to Jorah when he proposed selling child slaves into brothels was "This is the price of the IT." She convinced herself a long time ago that she would tolerate a certain level of violence as long as she benefits from it by getting the throne. 

At a certain point these contradictions can't be defended any more,  and we all know she's not going to stay and build a great public works program for the Unsullied. She benefits by having minimal long-term plans for Meereen, by giving them no other option but to fight for her. We know that's going to happen.  

I think it was actually right then that she first speaks of the price for the IT. Maybe I'm wrong. When did she convince herself of this? 

The issue I find in your argument is that you seem to coming from where you assume she will end up, backwards. She, as of yet, has done nothing more wrong than any of the Lords of Westeros have done - including Robb. That is not to say she has been an angel or perfect, but I think you are holding her to standards that you don't hold the other Lords to. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

To the OP's theory, it is intriguing but I also think MMD knows less than she thinks she does when it comes to magic healing. Just like the Valyrians didn't fully understand it and ended up blowing themselves up. Even the most practiced healer is still using guess work because the magic is supposed to be lost, misunderstood, or misapplied. This aligns with the theme of a low magic universe similar to Jack Vance. The "price" to me seems more like a general karmic statement, that Dany was going to face a price for such a big ask.

I agree insofar that I do not consider MMD a magician/witch with broad knowledge or practice in magic, especially during a time when magic was not yet that strong (remarked by Qaithe to Dany in aCoK). The sole magic she would have been interested in would have been "healing magic", like an extra trick to her bag of skills. She did see this type of magic performed once at least, and she herself paid a steep price for it. Which price that was, we do not know, but it potentially may have been an unborn child (a child which would never have survived anyhow if born in Asshai). I hope that Marwyn may tell us more about this side of MMD's story if/when he meets Dany or Jorah. And MMD also knew from that experience that the results would be unsatisfactory, confirmed by her cryptic warning that some would consider death kinder than the life resulting from the magic.

I do think she knew enough to perform the ritual correctly and did not botch it up. Drogo ending up as catatonic (he's not vegetative, since he can walk, move, eat and breathe of his own accord) is not imo evidence of MMD sabotaging the ritual intentionally or unintentionally, but that the exchange with "dead spirits" is tricky business as well as the magic still being weak at the time. Moqorro accomplishes a far better result when he heals Victarion, but by then magical forces have been soaring.  

I also think the price is not a karmic statement. MMD said explicitly that "death" would pay for life, and she implies Dany understood it correctly it would be a human death, just not Dany's. "Not your death."

Because magic, especially death magic, is such tricky business, I don't think MMD could have said with certainty it wouldn't be Dany's death unless she knew exactly how to ensure whose life it would be, and the sole manner she had control over whose death it would be, was by controlling who was inside the tent. Since she sent everyone outside, and she was the sole living person inside the tent, MMD knew during that conversation she meant to take her own life. This explains imo MMDs crypticness. She did not want Dany to know she planned to kill herself: she's after all Dany's slave and therefore has no legal right to decide for herself when to die or live, and Dany wanted to keep her close for her midwife skills.

I don't think she wanted to heal Drogo and keep him alive for Drogo, but for Dany. Qotho had threatened to kill Dany too when he saw that Drogo's wound had festered and knew his bloodbrother would be dead soon with MMD present. The sole way that she could save Dany, who had saved her from being raped by every Dothraki again and left to die a horrible slow death in the desert, was by keeping Drogo alive somehow, even if that was a catatonic life.   

Edited by sweetsunray

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18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

agree insofar that I do not consider MMD a magician/witch with broad knowledge or practice in magic, especially during a time when magic was not yet that strong (remarked by Qaithe to Dany in aCoK). The sole magic she would have been interested in would have been "healing magic", like an extra trick to her bag of skills. She did see this type of magic performed once at least, and she herself paid a steep price for it. Which price that was, we do not know, but it potentially may have been an unborn child (a child which would never have survived anyhow if born in Asshai). I hope that Marwyn may tell us more about this side of MMD's story if/when he meets Dany or Jorah. And MMD also knew from that experience that the results would be unsatisfactory, confirmed by her cryptic warning that some would consider death kinder than the life resulting from the magic.

I agree but doesn't she say death would be 'cleaner'? This to me, implies some dabble in dark arts or taboo magic of some sort. 

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

do think she knew enough to perform the ritual correctly and did not botch it up. Drogo ending up as catatonic (he's not vegetative, since he can walk, move, eat and breathe of his own accord) is not imo evidence of MMD sabotaging the ritual intentionally or unintentionally, but that the exchange with "dead spirits" is tricky business as well as the magic still being weak at the time. Moqorro accomplishes a far better result when he heals Victarion, but by then magical forces have been soaring

I agree she knew enough to perform the ritual. I don't see any reason to think she botched it. In fact, I think it turned out exactly as she intended. She tells Dany exactly why also; because she wants Dany to see what is left of life when all else is gone. Whether she knew a way to heal him correctly or put him back the way he was & chose this path instead is anyone's guess but it may be that this is the only spell she knew to keep him alive. I do think she knew it would not make him as he was though. 

23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

also think the price is not a karmic statement. MMD said explicitly that "death" would pay for life, and she implies Dany understood it correctly it would be a human death, just not Dany's. "Not your death."

I agree & for many reasons. It was always going to be a human death to pay for Drogo's life. 

24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because magic, especially death magic, is such tricky business, I don't think MMD could have said with certainty it wouldn't be Dany's death unless she knew exactly how to ensure whose life it would be, and the sole manner she had control over whose death it would be, was by controlling who was inside the tent. Since she sent everyone outside, and she was the sole living person inside the tent, MMD knew during that conversation she meant to take her own life. This explains imo MMDs crypticness. She did not want Dany to know she planned to kill herself: she's after all Dany's slave and therefore has no legal right to decide for herself when to die or live, and Dany wanted to keep her close for her midwife skills.

And this answers many questions which is why I like this theory. However, it does give me a few unanswered questions as well: Why was everyone in the tent affected by the ritual except Mirri? 

Also, the only reason I can think of that Mirri would be willing to give her life for Drogo's is if she knew what the result would be. She knew Drogo would be catatonic & that Dany would be taught her 'lesson' 

I can't imagine Mirri sacrificing her self if she intended or even thought there was a possibility of Drogo being fully healed & back to normal. She certainly may have been ready to die but to die only for Drogo to live happily ever after with Dany means she died in vain. 

29 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

don't think she wanted to heal Drogo and keep him alive for Drogo, but for Dany. Qotho had threatened to kill Dany too when he saw that Drogo's wound had festered and knew his bloodbrother would be dead soon with MMD present. The sole way that she could save Dany, who had saved her from being raped by every Dothraki again and left to die a horrible slow death in the desert, was by keeping Drogo alive somehow, even if that was a catatonic life. 

I agree it was for Dany but not necessarily because she truly wanted to save Dany. Catatonic Drogo does nothing to protect Dany from Qotho. I think it was to pay Dany back in kind - to 'save' her the way she was 'saved' 

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Please, may I ask not to detract the discussion to Dany. I do not want this thread to turn in either a Dany-hate or Dany-fan thread. It's not really about Dany, but meant to focus on MMD, surmising her state of mind and intentions at several stages of the few chapters we knew her some, and to propose an answer that resolve the main issue: how MMD could claim with certainty it wouldn't be Dany's death, and which death MMD expected to pay for life, if she sent everyone out and she danced alone with the shadows of the dead.

 

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What an interesting hypothesis! The idea of Mirri using her own lifeforce to heal Drogo, thus sparing her the pain of a Dothraki death... really interesting.

 

Strangely, the idea that Mirri's magic somehow manipulated events to cause so much death and bring Dany back into the tent reminds me of the idea that Melisandre burning the leeches somehow caused the three kings to die. While not exact parallels (as in there might be no actual magic in the burning of the leeches) it suggests a magic that is incredibly powerful and yet subtle - it manipulates the minds of many, leading to the desired outcome, with none of them seemingly aware of what's been done.

 

I've never really believed that Mirri intended to kill Rhaego either. Her instructions and behaviour afterwards just don't tally if that's the case. If the magic would have killed Rhaego whether or not Dany entered the tent, then why give the instruction to not enter? Mirri couldn't have known that Dany would be brought inside and thus the instruction offers no protection or anything. And if Mirri did know that Dany would be brought inside, why instruct Dany to not enter the tent? 'To give herself plausible deniability!' OK, but Dany does enter the tent and thus Mirri now has a perfect alibi: 'you entered the tent when I explicitly warned you not to' but Mirri doesn't attempt to defend herself at all. The defence might not have convinced Dany, or bought Mirri a kinder fate, but why set up a scenario where you give yourself a decent defence for a murder you're about to commit only then to never actually use said defence? It seems to me a contradiction - either Mirri thought Rhaego would die whether Dany entered the tent or not (in which case there's no need for the warning to stay out) or Mirri thought Dany needed to be in the tent for Rhaego to die (in which case ordering Dany to leave seems... incomprehensible).

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

However, it does give me a few unanswered questions as well: Why was everyone in the tent affected by the ritual except Mirri? 

She was the least desired by the magic, the dead spirits, when the moment came for the magic to pick a victim.

MMD was pre-menopausal at least. She's a "crone" figure, and she was already physically weakened. She had the "least" lifeforce. Hell, she may have been sick with cancer, because of her stay at Asshai.

Jorah is also infertile imo, since he failed to father children on both his wives, but as a man he has more strength, despite the wound. So, when inside the tent, the dead spirits touched him.

Dany's life imo was under threat, per her dream. She had to run in the dream, away from the cold breath of death. She was far more desirable than Jorah as lifeforce to the dead spirit/shadows. But she also has something that enabled her to outrun them, either protectors or a magic that belongs to her bloodline. Even then she lingered for days at death's door imo.

The youngest and strongest lifeforce, but least able to "resist" was Rhaego. Even as Dany runs and carries Rhaego with her, he has no defence against being taken.

So, basically I think that MMD first had to build up the magic, seduce and entice the shadows into making the necromancing-type of deal, and just as the time came for the spirits/shadows to take life(force) and MMD fully released the spell, Jorah carried Dany inside, and then they had their pick.

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7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

She was the least desired by the magic, the dead spirits, when the moment came for the magic to pick a victim.

MMD was pre-menopausal at least. She's a "crone" figure, and she was already physically weakened. She had the "least" lifeforce. Hell, she may have been sick with cancer, because of her stay at Asshai.

Jorah is also infertile imo, since he failed to father children on both his wives, but as a man he has more strength, despite the wound. So, when inside the tent, the dead spirits touched him.

Dany's life imo was under threat, per her dream. She had to run in the dream, away from the cold breath of death. She was far more desirable than Jorah as lifeforce to the dead spirit/shadows. But she also has something that enabled her to outrun them, either protectors or a magic that belongs to her bloodline. Even then she lingered for days at death's door imo.

The youngest and strongest lifeforce, but least able to "resist" was Rhaego. Even as Dany runs and carries Rhaego with her, he has no defence against being taken.

So, basically I think that MMD first had to build up the magic, seduce and entice the shadows into making the necromancing-type of deal, and just as the time came for the spirits/shadows to take life(force) and MMD fully released the spell, Jorah carried Dany inside, and then they had their pick.

I see. It's a good theory. Are you basing it on something that indicates this in the text or is this your personal explanation? 

Either way, I like it, I'm just curious to know what led you to this conclusion 

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16 hours ago, Seams said:

There are clues about Mirri Maz Duur and her motives when we compare the revivification of Khal Drogo to the revivification of Gregor Clegane.

As a magic healer of dead guys, the first parallel that suggests itself might be that MMD = Qyburn, who "heals" Ser Gregor by creating Ser Robert Strong. But that doesn't feel quite right to me. Qyburn is a defrocked maester but he doesn't seem to have the history of persecution or the religious devotion that characterize MMD. So we have to consider additional players and elements to test the comparison.

GRRM doesn't exactly match characters when he reuses parallel situations, so bear with me in considering this three-part parallel. Cersei was married to Robert Baratheon. She provided extra-potent wine to make him vulnerable during his hunting trip. He was killed by a boar but suffered a long time before succumbing to his injuries. Perhaps the potent wine inflicted on King Robert is like the poison that Oberyn Martell uses in his single combat with Ser Gregor. Maybe Prince Oberyn's blade is the equivalent of the boar's tusk that rips Robert open from groin to nipple. In the Khal Drogo scene, it wouldn't surprise me if Qotho, with his curved arakh, is the parallel for the boar with the curved tusk that killed Robert. Instead of killing Khal Drogo, however, he "kills" Dany's baby (or sets in motion the birth that leads to the monster baby who soon dies). Instead of Robert ripped from groin to nipple, Dany is the one with pain in her belly and wetness on her thighs.

Is Cersei implicated in the demise of Ser Gregor, as she was for King Robert? He is the champion for her point of view in the Trial by Combat to determine Tyrion's innocence or guilt. Clegane was presumably fully-occupied, terrorizing the people of the Riverlands and slowly forcing Vargo Hoat to eat himself, until he was summoned to King's Landing to fight Tyrion's champion. So you could make the case that Cersei is at least partially responsible for his death.

Obviously, Cersei was not married to Gregor Clegane (in the literal sense). But it is interesting that Qyburn renames the revived Ser Gregor as Ser Robert Strong. Robert was her husband's name and the word "strong" is often associated with people named Robb, Robin or Robert. (Although "stark" is the German word for "strong," so maybe Qyburn's creation is a Stark - Robert hybrid.)

But Qyburn alone can't reinvent and revive Ser Gregor. We know that he somehow uses puppeteers, Cersei's handmaid and Cersei's "friend" Falyse Stokeworth in some kind of magic recipe or ritual to bring Robert Strong to life.

I think there is a lot more than Qyburn's Frankenstein ritual at work, though. We know that Cersei's imprisonment is like Dany's pyre because both women lose all of their hair as a result of their ordeals - Dany's is burned by the fire and Cersei's is shaved by the Septas.

The religious faith that is important to MMD is also present in Cersei's lead-up to the birth of Ser Robert Strong. The Septas make it clear that Cersei is expected to confess, pray, repent, read a religious text and pay for her sins. In her POV, Cersei does not indicate that she is faking a spiritual rebirth - she could have inner thoughts about this, but she does not. It's not the same as MMD's references to the flock and the Great Shepherd, but it does give us a religious element for the parallel. One could even make a case that Cersei authorizing the formation of the Warrior's Sons is a religious rebirth. (And creating an army might be a further parallel to Dany's arc, as Dany has Dothraki bloodriders and will soon have the Unsullied after her dragons hatch.)

Qyburn takes dictation from Cersei when she tries to get Jaime to return to King's Landing to be her champion. One of the things about the letter that stands out is Cersei closing with, "I love you" thrice. We know that things that are repeated three times carry special meaning in ASOIAF - Mormont's raven almost always repeats a word three times and there are other examples. I suspect that the letter represents some kind of spell and that is why GRRM has Qyburn take the dictation instead of Kevan or some other character. Qyburn apparently does deliver the letter to Jaime but it does not have the desired effect and Jaime burns it without indicating an intention to help Cersei out of her situation. Instead, Ser Robert Strong will be Cersei's champion. The magic from the letter may have been diverted to Qyburn's patient instead of casting its spell on Jaime.

But I said that a "Qyburn = MMD" comparison doesn't feel 100% right to me. Is there another candidate in the rebirth of Robert Strong who is a closer match for MMD? Or who combines with Qyburn to represent more of the elements we associate with MMD?

Take a second to recall the sigil of House Stokeworth: A white lamb holding a golden goblet on a green field. A lamb. The Lamb Men. In keeping with the OP, with the idea that MMD sacrifices herself to bring Khal Drogo back to life, you could make a case that Falyse Stokeworth also sacrifices herself - without knowing she is doing so - to bring Robert Strong to life. A lamb to slaughter. Interestingly, Falyse's husband also walks to slaughter by engaging in single combat with Ser Bronn of the Blackwater. It may not be correct, but an anagram might support the husband's death as part of the theme of slaughtering lambs: Ser Balman Byrch = Ser Lamby Branch?

A strange possible parallel: Ser Jorah is badly injured on his hip when Qotho fights him to try to stop the dark magic ritual. Lady Tanda Stokeworth dies after breaking her hip.

There are probably other parallels, if we cared to dig: the gold crown for Viserys and the gold hand for Jaime; the killing of horses (Gregor kills his own horse at the Hand's tourney); Joffrey and Rhaego both monsters who die; the rapes (MMD is raped by Dothraki warriors; Cersei sexually assaults Taena Merryweather, wondering what it would feel like to be Robert; Lollys is the rape victim in House Stokeworth); maternal presence for Dany in the form of MMD and for Cersei in one of the Septas; rebirths for Cersei and Dany.

Well, I think I can agree with the premisse that there are analogies between the Mountain and Drogo, as well as with Victarion.

They're kindof George's magical versions of Frankenstein's monster, except that the necromancing performed involves a body-host that has not physically died, but is healed from certain death with blood magic and forces that take the life of others. I like the analogy with Falyse, and house Stokeworth, the Lamb House.

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13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I see. It's a good theory. Are you basing it on something that indicates this in the text or is this your personal explanation? 

Either way, I like it, I'm just curious to know what led you to this conclusion 

It's a combo of things. As known I have believed MMD innocent of planning to murder Drogo or Rhaego for years, because with the scenario of events and her actual actions before the conclusion requires too many twists and assumptions that then also contradict MMD's convenient total lack of insight into Dany when Dany builds the pyre as well as total lack of power display before she's burned, while she displays overconfidence in her abilities. You have to jump dozens of magical hoops to make it work, hoops I'm very much disinclined to take. But even if you consider MMD innocent you're still stuck with her dancing alone with the shadows and forbidding anyone else to enter, and her 180° turn in cruel behaviour towards Dany and goading Dany to kill her, which is often taken to be MMDs "confession". 

Those who believe MMD innocent often compare MMD's "confession" to Tyrion's, except it's never a literal "confession". She never says, "I killed Rhaego," or "I did it," like Tyrion confesses to Jaime. This is paradoxical in light of the fact that MMD has no fear to be cruel and blunt to Dany since she asked after Rhaego. It is paradoxical in light of her admission that her present life means nothing to her anymore: she lost her village, was raped, etc. - that MMD essentially wants to die. This always made me lean to the opinion that MMD was not confessing, but attesting her beliefs about the Great Shepherd, that what had happened was some type of miracle, a divine intervention to punish. 

It was opening up to the idea that MMD is not a typical tertiary side character with a static mindset, but an evolving one to George, whose hopes, wishes and beliefs alter over time and with experience not dissimilar to a person going through the grieving process of trauma. Trauma survivors rarely are able to plan revenge so meticulously while pretending to be someone else. Their mind and mood has highs and lows, much like a ping pong ball, includes efforts to pretend as if it didn't happen, etc... and it certainly impacts their sense of identity. Even Arya with whom we go through her need for revenge step by step cannot do it without help, and cannot mask who she is on the inside. When she is the mouse, she feels like a mouse - fearful, weary, tired, horrified and despairing.

Anyway, when I considered MMD having a death wish after the events, I wondered whether she might have had a death wish before, and if so her mindset had been suicidal, and then it becomes paramount to take a deeper look into her psyche with the clues that George gave us. It matches her actions, her words, and her characterization.

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's a combo of things. As known I have believed MMD innocent of planning to murder Drogo or Rhaego for years, because with the scenario of events and her actual actions before the conclusion requires too many twists and assumptions that then also contradict MMD's convenient total lack of insight into Dany when Dany builds the pyre as well as total lack of power display before she's burned, while she displays overconfidence in her abilities. You have to jump dozens of magical hoops to make it work, hoops I'm very much disinclined to take. But even if you consider MMD innocent you're still stuck with her dancing alone with the shadows and forbidding anyone else to enter, and her 180° turn in cruel behaviour towards Dany and goading Dany to kill her, which is often taken to be MMDs "confession". 

Those who believe MMD innocent often compare MMD's "confession" to Tyrion's, except it's never a literal "confession". She never says, "I killed Rhaego," or "I did it," like Tyrion confesses to Jaime. This is paradoxical in light of the fact that MMD has no fear to be cruel and blunt to Dany since she asked after Rhaego. It is paradoxical in light of her admission that her present life means nothing to her anymore: she lost her village, was raped, etc. - that MMD essentially wants to die. This always made me lean to the opinion that MMD was not confessing, but attesting her beliefs about the Great Shepherd, that what had happened was some type of miracle, a divine intervention to punish. 

It was opening up to the idea that MMD is not a typical tertiary side character with a static mindset, but an evolving one to George, whose hopes, wishes and beliefs alter over time and with experience not dissimilar to a person going through the grieving process of trauma. Trauma survivors rarely are able to plan revenge so meticulously while pretending to be someone else. Their mind and mood has highs and lows, much like a ping pong ball, includes efforts to pretend as if it didn't happen, etc... and it certainly impacts their sense of identity. Even Arya with whom we go through her need for revenge step by step cannot do it without help, and cannot mask who she is on the inside. When she is the mouse, she feels like a mouse - fearful, weary, tired, horrified and despairing.

Anyway, when I considered MMD having a death wish after the events, I wondered whether she might have had a death wish before, and if so her mindset had been suicidal, and then it becomes paramount to take a deeper look into her psyche with the clues that George gave us. It matches her actions, her words, and her characterization.

Oh for sure. I understand where you came up with the theory - it makes alot of sense. 

I meant how you came up with the idea that MMD wasn't harmed in the tent due to her not being as 'valuable' - do you mean like her life force wasn't as strong & thus not the best candidate when the powers that be were presented with better choices? 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh for sure. I understand where you came up with the theory - it makes alot of sense. 

I meant how you came up with the idea that MMD wasn't harmed in the tent due to her not being as 'valuable' - do you mean like her life force wasn't as strong & thus not the best candidate when the powers that be were presented with better choices? 

It's the description of Rhaego's physical state (apart from his monstrous deformity): he appeared as if dead for years already. That's rather particular. It doesn't just mean he was born dead, but that he died years before he was even conceived. Combine it with Jorah appearing to having been touched by death, as weaker, and we're talking about "lifeforce".

When I was a senior at HS I made an oil painting once to illustrate "opposites": I had Death (skeleton in his robe with cowl) hold a newborn baby to symbolize Life. The baby is in red and orange, lively colours, kicking and grasping like a happy baby. Death holds the baby like a Madonna holding baby Jesus. It's an intuitive tie to make in contrast to Death, not just for myself, but for most people. New life versus death. 

And I have had that suspicion for years already with regards to how Rhaego ended up being picked. Hypothetically he has the most years ahead of him in contrast to all the others inside the tent, and MMD the least years.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's the description of Rhaego's physical state (apart from his monstrous deformity): he appeared as if dead for years already. That's rather particular. It doesn't just mean he was born dead, but that he died years before he was even conceived. Combine it with Jorah appearing to having been touched by death, as weaker, and we're talking about "lifeforce".

When I was a senior at HS I made an oil painting once to illustrate "opposites": I had Death (skeleton in his robe with cowl) hold a newborn baby to symbolize Life. The baby is in red and orange, lively colours, kicking and grasping like a happy baby. Death holds the baby like a Madonna holding baby Jesus. It's an intuitive tie to make in contrast to Death, not just for myself, but for most people. New life versus death. 

And I have had that suspicion for years already with regards to how Rhaego ended up being picked. Hypothetically he has the most years ahead of him in contrast to all the others inside the tent, and MMD the least years.

Nice. Very well thought out. I like it. 

ETA: so basically the magic took all of Rhaego's future years of life right? That's why he has been 'dead for years'? 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Nice. Very well thought out. I like it. 

ETA: so basically the magic took all of Rhaego's future years of life right? That's why he has been 'dead for years'? 

Yes. That's how I always took that line "dead for years".

The sole alternative is that a dead-for-years-shadow/spirit exhcanged/swapped with Rhaego, but then this does not explain Jorah's weakened/touched state.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think she wanted to heal Drogo and keep him alive for Drogo, but for Dany. Qotho had threatened to kill Dany too when he saw that Drogo's wound had festered and knew his bloodbrother would be dead soon with MMD present. The sole way that she could save Dany, who had saved her from being raped by every Dothraki again and left to die a horrible slow death in the desert, was by keeping Drogo alive somehow, even if that was a catatonic life.

I liked how you talked about Mirri doing all of this for the intrinsic skill of healing, but saving Dany’s life? I’m not really seeing that as a motive. I see more fear, knowing that she is a slave, she has to do what the khal’s wife tells her to do, and her healers pride. I thought that was the point of “you do not ask a slave.” The death is cleaner comment could apply to even more animated wights. Stoneheart isn’t a clean death by any means. It just sounds like Mirri warning her that it’s risky and ugly. Agree that Dany isn’t being tricked, but Mirri might not know why Drogo wasn’t animated. If Rhaego was the price why did Drogo end up catatonic? And, how would a catatonic state save Dany from rape? It just sounds like Mirri doesn’t know how or why the magic works and can’t control all outcomes.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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