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Tywin Manderly

Who Pays the Coronaman? - Covid #8

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8 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

lol

ok, I bite. Do you think a socialist system (like venezoela) will handle the crisis any better?

I don't, and that is my point I do not think it is a failure of the "system", and I do not think that it will help the situation to blame our democray for the spread of the virus. It is true though that some leaders reacted more wisely than others.

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18 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I'm not interested in the difference in authoritarian governments and democratic ones, as I am in a decentralized versus centralized one. In my opinion, for a real emergency the patchwork state-by-state approach leaves much to be desired and is a real barrier when you have a virus that can easily cross state boundaries.

There's lots of research around that the federal & decentralized nature of US public health systems have an adverse effect on their response to epidemics. This one here is about Ebola, but we've seen the same stuff play out with SARS-COV 2.

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1 hour ago, Arakan said:

It has a lot to do with ideology of that leader. See Trump. You are from Jena? AFAIK it’s from next Monday on. Yes mask situation is ridiculous. All over Europe. It cannot be helped right now. We will have to use scarfs which is allowed. So you do not have to sew. I hope the situation gets better but I don’t believe it. A simple product which is not produced in Europe anymore. Blame the system. 
 

After this, yes maybe the rest of the world will think twice about relying on Chinese factories to produce everything at a ridiculously low cost and might have to start considering producing things themselves. 

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

ok, I bite. Do you think a socialist system (like venezoela) will handle the crisis any better?

I don't, and that is my point I do not think it is a failure of the "system", and I do not think that it will help the situation to blame our democray for the spread of the virus. It is true though that some leaders reacted more wisely than others.

You do realize many Western nations have socialized medicine, including here in the U.S.?

And most Europeans would never trade their systems for ours.  

Edited by Tywin et al.

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9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You do realize many Western nations have socialized medicine, including here in the U.S.?

And most Europeans would never trade their systems for ours.  

Yes, we Europeans have a different (and in my opinion much superior) health system. But it is not "socialist". Actually I think that is a lie of the american republicans to call a good working health system "socialist". It is well in the restritions of a parlamentary democracy to provide the people with a good health and educational system.  There is nothing "communist" or "socialist" in it, it is  just good govering.

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39 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Yes, we Europeans have a different (and in my opinion much superior) health system. But it is not "socialist". Actually I think that is a lie of the american republicans to call a good working health system "socialist". It is well in the restritions of a parlamentary democracy to provide the people with a good health and educational system.  There is nothing "communist" or "socialist" in it, it is  just good govering.

I don't know where exactly you live in Europe, but "Beveridge model" of health care which is used in UK, Spain and most of Scandinavia is literally socialist, by every possible definition of the term.

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5 minutes ago, Gorn said:

I don't know where exactly you live in Europe, but "Beveridge model" of health care which is used in UK, Spain and most of Scandinavia is literally socialist, by every possible definition of the term.

The example I use for my fellow Americans is…..our military. It’s as socialistic as it gets. I get some joy in watching their screwed up faces processing it.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JoannaL said:

ok, I bite. Do you think a socialist system (like venezoela) will handle the crisis any better?

I don't, and that is my point I do not think it is a failure of the "system", and I do not think that it will help the situation to blame our democray for the spread of the virus. It is true though that some leaders reacted more wisely than others.

There is no „western system“. The socio-economic system of countries like Sweden, Norway, Germany, Austria is as far away from the US system as it is from the Chinese one. Germany since 1990 moved more towards the Anglo-American model but still far away. Furthermore socialism and democracy are not antipodes. In the eyes of the average American Republican our welfare state, our extensively regulated markets ARE socialism. This should tell you something.

The privatization of key industries like energy, transportation, telecommunications only happened in the 1990s and factually not for the betterment of those services, contrary to neoliberal ideological mantra. As a fellow German you will surely acknowledge this ;).  
 

And no, nothing of this is OT. Strategists all over the world, even Larry Fink of Blackrock fame, knows that we live in RIGHT NOW in epoch-changing times. 

Edited by Arakan

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

After this, yes maybe the rest of the world will think twice about relying on Chinese factories to produce everything at a ridiculously low cost and might have to start considering producing things themselves. 

So you also propose an end to maximum advantage capitalism? Good to hear :)  

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5 minutes ago, Gorn said:

I don't know where exactly you live in Europe, but "Beveridge model" of health care which is used in UK, Spain and most of Scandinavia is literally socialist, by every possible definition of the term.

Look, I am a born in West Germany but live in the East part of the country now for quite a while. They tried a socialist system (no parlamentary democry but a one party dictatorship). I know a lot of stories from my neighbors and friends. Their health system was ok, but lesser than our own. Apart from that, they could not speak their mind, could not decide which profession they want to take , and were shoot at if they wanted to leave the country. There was a secret service which spied on everyone and reported their political view, which could lead to jail time. This is socialism.

To have a good health system is not socialism, it is social. In a western country you can elect a party which will give you a good health (and educational system) or you can elect  one, which doesnt care. It is your decision. I  do not understand why some countries decide again and again to elect parties which dont care? In Germany NO party (from the far left to the far right and all in between and also the liberals) would change our health or educational system, because it is working and makes sense.

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58 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Yes, we Europeans have a different (and in my opinion much superior) health system. But it is not "socialist". Actually I think that is a lie of the american republicans to call a good working health system "socialist". It is well in the restritions of a parlamentary democracy to provide the people with a good health and educational system.  There is nothing "communist" or "socialist" in it, it is  just good govering.

You do not understand what socialism means. Sorry. The DDR was not the be all end all of socialism. 
A state enforced re-distribution of wealth to build up a social safety net as COMMON good (public-funded health care, public-funded pensions, public-funded unemployment payments) is socialist in its core. Like it or not. 
 

You are German. So you should know that the BY FAR largest piece of our retirement pensions are public funded, based on what you paid into. This is not how it works in the US. 

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4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Huge jump for the UK, up 393 deaths. 

It looks like one death was a 19 year old with no health conditions. 

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Just now, Chaircat Meow said:

It looks like one death was a 19 year old with no health conditions. 

I'm taking them with a pinch of salt until confirmed. 

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5 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Look, I am a born in West Germany but live in the East part of the country now for quite a while. They tried a socialist system (no parlamentary democry but a one party dictatorship). I know a lot of stories from my neighbors and friends. Their health system was ok, but lesser than our own. Apart from that, they could not speak their mind, could not decide which profession they want to take , and were shoot at if they wanted to leave the country. There was a secret service which spied on everyone and reported their political view, which could lead to jail time. This is socialism.

To have a good health system is not socialism, it is social. In a western country you can elect a party which will give you a good health (and educational system) or you can elect  one, which doesnt care. It is your decision. I  do not understand why some countries decide again and again to elect parties which dont care? In Germany NO party (from the far left to the far right and all in between and also the liberals) would change our health or educational system, because it is working and makes sense.

Sorry. Please read more and inform yourself about these topics. You are speaking out of cognitive dissonance. Maybe you simply lack the perspective to compare but having relatives in the US, I can tell you what non-socialism can look like. When all your money and „wealth“ (the stuff you saved for your retirement) is melting away because you got ill and your insurance refuses to pay the necessary treatment. You were raised in the sheltered, socialist-inspired welfare system of (West)Germany. You would be shocked how the outside world looks like. 

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1 minute ago, Chaircat Meow said:

It looks like one death was a 19 year old with no health conditions. 

Have to see what happens with that, the last similar case of a 21 year old hasn’t been verified and has doubts about it from what I can tell.

 

13 minutes ago, Arakan said:

So you also propose an end to maximum advantage capitalism? Good to hear :)  

Well a global system where we take advantage of low wage counties and they take advantage of us has benefits and costs. But we will almost certainly end up being a bit more cautious in the future 

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Don't know how credible this study is and it hasn't been peer reviewed yet, but it attempts to estimate the degree of undercounting positive cases in each country.  Obviously the rate of undercounting varies from country to country, but here's their estimate of "percentage of cases reported". 

South Korea - 77%

US - 15%

UK - 7.5%

Spain - 4.7%

Now I don't fully understand this study, so I'm not vouching for it, but it is a really important issue.  With that estimate, the number of cases in the US is 165k/15% = 1.1 million.  Which IMO sounds low from what other sources I've read, but who knows. 

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Quote

 

Do you think a socialist system (like venezoela) will handle the crisis any better?

I don't, and that is my point I do not think it is a failure of the "system", and I do not think that it will help the situation to blame our democray for the spread of the virus. It is true though that some leaders reacted more wisely than others.

 

an odd set of oppositions here; the opposite of socialism is not democracy

not sure that i would hold venezuela out as an example of socialism. it is a standard mixed economy with a democratic constitution. the US likes to beat up on it because it has not been compliant with neoliberal imperatives.

capitalism is not really structured to handle public health problems, by definition.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Have to see what happens with that, the last similar case of a 21 year old hasn’t been verified and has doubts about it from what I can tell.

 

Well a global system where we take advantage of low wage counties and they take advantage of us has benefits and costs. But we will almost certainly end up being a bit more cautious in the future 

How does this great English proverb go which I like so very much? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.  I love this one. 
 

Capital moves there where the highest margin can be expected. Unless you have a very ethical old-school entrepreneur (patriarch, though patriarchical capitalism is more a German/Japanese thing) who doesn’t search for every Cent. Or you have strict regulations which would break the free market mantra of the Anglo-American right. Please decide ;)

Edited by Arakan

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3 minutes ago, Arakan said:

How does this great English proverb go which I like so very much? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.  I love this one. 
 

Capital moves there where the highest margin can be expected. Unless you have a very ethical old-school entrepreneur (patriarch, though patriarchical capitalism is more a German/Japanese thing) who doesn’t search for every Cent. Or you have strict regulations which would break the free market mantra of the Anglo-American right. Please decide ;)

My point was we have outsourced most of our manufacturing industry to the east because it’s cheaper. Nothing to do with ethics. It’s globalism. Not quite sure what you are proposing to a solution to that.

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