Whether Cat abused Jon or not V...

[frenin]

I start this topic because i don't want to derail more the the other thread.

 

@Hugorfonics is in the believe that Cat not only abused Jon but that she was morally bounded to be Jon's mother figure.

 Since you all surely are familiar with the discussions i skip context... (that and because i don't knowhow to edit properly)

 

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

No... no... that's not true... that's impossible!!!  

[frenin]

@Hugorfonics

 

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She still left him

Lynesse only left Jorah once they were drove to exile.

 

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No it wasnt

Per Martin's own mouth it was.

 

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GRRM may think its an exception but Jon and Robb thought otherwise, as we see with the before and after. It was the worst mistreatment Jon has experienced, sure, but thats because Catelyn beating him bloody wouldnt have even be as bad

No, they didn't, they know that Cat is cold with Jon and that's off putting, they didn't know Cat would tell something like that.

 

 

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Nothing about traumatizing a child you live with is acceptable. If she was indifferent and acted like he didnt exist, bet. But she instead she scares Jon away at any persons most traumatizing moments while depressing her child who's also watching his brother die. 

While setting the table for dinner she specifically finds a reserved seat for Snow, but not that smiling viking prick. Shes consistently including Jon in her life because he is part of her life 

Martin himself makes clear that she only did once when she is clearly under high grief and stress, most of the times she acts like he doesn't exist.

Theon is not a bastard and most of the time Jon eats with his family. No one says that Jon is not part of her life, Jon is not her responsability.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

Ned should have told Cat and Jon who Jon was - and then they could have been a family.

But treating a bastard as your own stepchild isn't something that goes beyond what society demands of women in this world.

However shitty that might be, though - because quite frankly, the way 'bastards' are vilified in this series is George's very own idea and has literally nothing to do with how illegitimate children of royalty and nobility were treated in the real middle ages.

[Angel Eyes]

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No... no... that's not true... that's impossible!!!  

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

[Angel Eyes]

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

@Hugorfonics

 

Lynesse only left Jorah once they were drove to exile.

 

Per Martin's own mouth it was.

 

No, they didn't, they know that Cat is cold with Jon and that's off putting, they didn't know Cat would tell something like that.

 

 

Martin himself makes clear that she only did once when she is clearly under high grief and stress, most of the times she acts like he doesn't exist.

Theon is not a bastard and most of the time Jon eats with his family. No one says that Jon is not part of her life, Jon is not her responsability.

 

 

 

Well, that one time where Catelyn said that Jon should have been pushed out of a tower by an incestuous kingslayer is as good as a moral event horizon for some. And that’s the only time she called him by name.

Did GRRM intend for Catelyn to be seen in such a manner?

[frenin]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, that one time where Catelyn said that Jon should have been pushed out of a tower by an incestuous kingslayer is as good as a moral event horizon for some. And that’s the only time she called him by name.

 Did GRRM intend for Catelyn to be seen in such a manner?

He didn't.

People say things under grief that would not say otherwise,

[Alyn Oakenfist]

I don't think Cat abused Jon much, besides being an icy bitch with him. He fault was another. She was unable to let out her hate towards Ned for Jon because she wanted to be the perfect wife and mother, so she instead channeled all her anger towards a completely innocent boy.

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, that one time where Catelyn said that Jon should have been pushed out of a tower by an incestuous kingslayer is as good as a moral event horizon for some. And that’s the only time she called him by name.

Did GRRM intend for Catelyn to be seen in such a manner?

I mean what she said to Jon was absolutely horrible, and clearly shows some underlying wish for him to die. As I said it's jealousy that should be directed towards Ned, confronted by her love towards Ned and his otherwise unimpeachable behavior, leading to her bottling up all that hatred towards Jon. Add to that the fact that she couldn't really act out or say anything, because of Ned as well as Jon being a child, results in quite a lot of bottled up anger, leading even to wanting Jon dead, seeing him as the solve problem.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

People say things under grief that would not say otherwise,

You don't say you wish someone dead, no matter the grief. And don't tell me she didn't mean it, she full well meant it. She think of Jon as a problem way too much for her not to have fantasized of him dying.

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Oh no! dug my own grave here, did I?  I take it all back lol

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You don't say you wish someone dead, no matter the grief. And don't tell me she didn't mean it, she full well meant it. She think of Jon as a problem way too much for her not to have fantasized of him dying.

You do to people you especially dislike. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

You do to people you especially dislike. 

No, you do to people you at least subconsciously already wished were dead. And that really tells a lot about Cat. She is so messed up that she wishes for someone who is completely blameless to be dead.

[frenin]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No, you do to people you at least subconsciously already wished were dead. And that really tells a lot about Cat. She is so messed up that she wishes for someone who is completely blameless to be dead.

Hmm no, you do to people you really dislike and you tell them the cruelest things even if you don't really mean it.

[Angel Eyes]

I guess what I'm saying is that people took that moment and it's fixed so that everyone will believe the worst of Catelyn.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No, you do to people you at least subconsciously already wished were dead. And that really tells a lot about Cat. She is so messed up that she wishes for someone who is completely blameless to be dead.

Hmm no, you do to people you really dislike and you tell them the cruelest things even if you don't really mean it.

Alright, we're both getting a bit lame here, squabbling like this is the Monty Python argument clinic. Cat at multiple points int he story thinks about how much of a danger Jon is, so taking those 2 together it's clear Jon's death is something she has contemplated a bit.

[Hugorfonics]

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

but that she was morally bounded to be Jon's mother figure.

I never said that

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

No, they didn't, they know that Cat is cold with Jon and that's off putting, they didn't know Cat would tell something like that.

He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that. He straightened, and entered the room.

Lady Stark was there beside his bed. She had been there, day and night, for close on a fortnight. Not for a moment had she left Bran's side. She had her meals brought to her there, and chamber pots as well, and a small hard bed to sleep on, though it was said she had scarcely slept at all. She fed him herself, the honey and water and herb mixture that sustained life. Not once did she leave the room. So Jon had stayed away.

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His brother is in a coma but he wont visit because Catelyn scares him. Thats not off putting, its child abuse

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hmm no, you do to people you really dislike and you tell them the cruelest things even if you don't really mean it.

If you can justify that type of behavior then, good for you

 

On a more positive note, 

55 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh no! dug my own grave here, did I?  I take it all back lol

like, what were you thinking? Lol

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I never said that

You did, you said that Cat stayed married to Ned so she should act motherly to him.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that. He straightened, and entered the room.

Lady Stark was there beside his bed. She had been there, day and night, for close on a fortnight. Not for a moment had she left Bran's side. She had her meals brought to her there, and chamber pots as well, and a small hard bed to sleep on, though it was said she had scarcely slept at all. She fed him herself, the honey and water and herb mixture that sustained life. Not once did she leave the room. So Jon had stayed away.

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His brother is in a coma but he wont visit because Catelyn scares him. Thats not off putting, its child abuse

It isn't. Cat's coldness is more than enough to scare every child, especially a child who expects her to be a mother to him. You have Jon's own memories, besides Martin's words, in none Cat says something, she is just very cold to him,

 

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If you can justify that type of behavior then, good for you

Justify implies approval, i can explain that type of behaviour tho.

[Hugorfonics]

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

You did, you said that Cat stayed married to Ned so she should act motherly to him.

I did not

56 minutes ago, frenin said:

Justify implies approval, i can explain that type of behaviour tho.

Enjoy

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

He didn't.

People say things under grief that would not say otherwise,

Erhm... then your answer should have been, “he did”. Since “people say things under grief that would not say otherwise”. Right? 

I’ve had a problem w/ Cat for a very long time. Mostly b/c of her treatment of Jon. No, I never thought she was abusive or cruel, or that she “scarred the poor boy, inflicting upon him unimaginable pain and trauma”. LOL

That said, I really disagree (and dislike) the way she took her frustration over Ned “having cheated on her and flaunting his bastard son right under her nose” on Jon. A child can never ever be the recipient of that kind of feeling. IMO. But the fault here lies w/ Ned, even if he had his [good] reasons for handling matters the way he did. And the bottom line of why Cat, who is such a wonderful mother, and an empathetic person, relates to Jon the way she does is that it’s not her fault but Martin’s. He chose to depict this relationship this way, so, nothing to be done about it. I know it took me long years and some extremely dumb YT vids on Cat being “the worst person anywhere EVER!!!” to get to a point where I could appreciate the character a lot more. A hell of a lot more.

 

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Erhm... then your answer should have been, “he did”. Since “people say things under grief that would not say otherwise”. Right? 

I doubt that Martin expected his fans to see as a forever abuser monster for that one tho.

 

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’ve had a problem w/ Cat for a very long time. Mostly b/c of her treatment of Jon. No, I never thought she was abusive or cruel, or that she “scarred the poor boy, inflicting upon him unimaginable pain and trauma”. LOL

That said, I really disagree (and dislike) the way she took her frustration over Ned “having cheated on her and flaunting his bastard son right under her nose” on Jon. A child can never ever be the recipient of that kind of feeling. IMO. But the fault here lies w/ Ned, even if he had his [good] reasons for handling matters the way he did. And the bottom line of why Cat, who is such a wonderful mother, and an empathetic person, relates to Jon the way she does is that it’s not her fault but Martin’s. He chose to depict this relationship this way, so, nothing to be done about it. I know it took me long years and some extremely dumb YT vids on Cat being “the worst person anywhere EVER!!!” to get to a point where I could appreciate the character a lot more. A hell of a lot more.

Completely agree on that. 

I've said many times that Cat's mistakes are hers and so are Ned's, regardless of what Ned could do better, it was Cat who decided treat a child like that i strongly disagree in the abuse tho and even when the authour has to come out to say there was no abuse and people ignore that i'm lost.