The Starks and Revenge

[LynnS]

On 5/2/2020 at 5:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. Another reason why we need TWoW. I’m thinking a whole bunch of posters are going to hate it w/ a vengeance. Can’t. Wait.

Do you recall GRRM saying something about Jon Snow going down dark paths in the next book? What do you think that means?

A couple things about Catelyn:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI

"We learned that to our sorrow, Ser Donnel," Catelyn said. Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone; six brave men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them. Even their names were fading. "The clansmen harried us day and night. We lost three men in the first attack, and two more in the second, and Lannister's serving man died of a fever when his wounds festered. When we heard your men approaching, I thought us doomed for certain." They had drawn up for a last desperate fight, blades in hand and backs to the rock. The dwarf had been whetting the edge of his axe and making some mordant jest when Bronn spotted the banner the riders carried before them, the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn, sky-blue and white. Catelyn had never seen a more welcome sight.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

Catelyn grabbed a handful of Jinglebell Frey's long grey hair and dragged him out of his hiding place. "Lord Walder!" she shouted. "LORD WALDER!" The drum beat slow and sonorous, doom boom doom. "Enough," said Catelyn. "Enough, I say. You have repaid betrayal with betrayal, let it end." When she pressed her dagger to Jinglebell's throat, the memory of Bran's sickroom came back to her, with the feel of steel at her own throat. The drum went boom doom boom doom boom doom. "Please," she said. "He is my son. My first son, and my last. Let him go. Let him go and I swear we will forget this . . . forget all you've done here. I swear it by the old gods and new, we . . . we will take no vengeance . . ."

 

We know how that turned out.  Is there anything about Jon Snow that might indicate what his dark path will be other than 'stick them with the pointy end'.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do you recall GRRM saying something about Jon Snow going down dark paths in the next book? What do you think that means?

A couple things about Catelyn:

We know how that turned out.  Is there anything about Jon Snow that might indicate what his dark path will be other than 'stick them with the pointy end'.

I'd be quite happy if his attitude towards the Boltons and Freys is "Burn, Motherfucker, Burn!"

[redwolf@winterhell]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:36 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

Not all of the Starks are revenge-minded.  Arya and Jon are.  Those two are blood-thirsty savages.  Whereas Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are pretty decent kids.  That could change but this is true for the time being.  Sansa could express her selfish side and murder the Arryn boy.  That would push her to the black.  She's not a bad person for now.  Being ignorant or dumb is not a crime.  Until she does something worse than ratting out father's exit plans, she is just a very selfish, spoiled teenager.  She's not evil.  Bran and Rickon are wild but could grow out of  that  phase.

I would just like to point out that Sansa is ignorant or dumb, she was in the beginning , but not now.  Now, I do not agree with her being selfish at all ;

1. When Dontos arrives to Joffrey's name day drunk, Joffrey decides to drown him in wine. But Sansa risks Joffrey's anger to save Dontos, which works.

2. Sansa cares for Sweet Robin at the Vale even when she doesn't like him at all and thinks he is a spoiled brat.

This is just of the top of my head.

Sansa is a young girl who was thrust into cruel reality when she watches her dad die. She grew up with no knowledge of how to play the game but had to learn. Do you think Arya would go around telling people that her family were traitors? No, she wouldn't have.....and she would've died. Sansa was  beaten and stripped and humiliated and threatened with rape in court by the man who was supposed to love and care for her(in Sansa's mind, that's what a husband was supposed to do). Sansa has played the game better than anyone in her family, she survived Robb, Cat, and Ned all died. If she wasn't smart, she would be dead with her father. But no, she escaped that lion's den, and if you agree that the wine was poisoned, killed her abuser. Then she goes to the Vale and wraps Harry around her finger(read sample). She is now a strong young woman hoping to get revenge on the people who had destroyed her family, she has risen from a spoiled naïve girl with love in her mind to someone who is going to play the game of thrones and win.

I think it's kinda obvious on who my favorite character is.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

I would just like to point out that Sansa is ignorant or dumb, she was in the beginning , but not now.  Now, I do not agree with her being selfish at all ;

1. When Dontos arrives to Joffrey's name day drunk, Joffrey decides to drown him in wine. But Sansa risks Joffrey's anger to save Dontos, which works.

2. Sansa cares for Sweet Robin at the Vale even when she doesn't like him at all and thinks he is a spoiled brat.

This is just of the top of my head.

Sansa is a young girl who was thrust into cruel reality when she watches her dad die. She grew up with no knowledge of how to play the game but had to learn. Do you think Arya would go around telling people that her family were traitors? No, she wouldn't have.....and she would've died. Sansa was  beaten and stripped and humiliated and threatened with rape in court by the man who was supposed to love and care for her(in Sansa's mind, that's what a husband was supposed to do). Sansa has played the game better than anyone in her family, she survived Robb, Cat, and Ned all died. If she wasn't smart, she would be dead with her father. But no, she escaped that lion's den, and if you agree that the wine was poisoned, killed her abuser. Then she goes to the Vale and wraps Harry around her finger(read sample). She is now a strong young woman hoping to get revenge on the people who had destroyed her family, she has risen from a spoiled naïve girl with love in her mind to someone who is going to play the game of thrones and win.

I think it's kinda obvious on who my favorite character is.

She's not my favourite character.  She started out seemingly stupid and stuck-up, spoiled and entitled.

But, it's clear she has a good heart.  She is kind, and she is decent.  But, she may be trapped into evil by Littlefinger. 

[The Commentator]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Janos Slynt got justice.

Mance Rayder was Stannis' prisoner.  It was up to Stannis' deputy at the Wall, Melisandre, to decide his fate.

I disagree.  

Mance Rayder is a man of the Night's Watch.  Jon is his commander.  Jon had a duty to judge Slynt and Mance fairly and equally.  He did not do that.  Slynt did not get justice from Jon.  

Jon was the one who sent Mance on his errand and even ordered another man of the watch to fetch the women to help with the mission.  Mance was acting on Jon's orders.  He was Jon's responsibility.  

[redwolf@winterhell]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She's not my favourite character.  She started out seemingly stupid and stuck-up, spoiled and entitled.

But, it's clear she has a good heart.  She is kind, and she is decent.  But, she may be trapped into evil by Littlefinger. 

That's okay that she isn't your favorite character. I 've just seen a lot of people give her hate that she doesn't deserve . And thank you for the comment about her having a good heart, it feels nice to hear from someone who doesn't just talk crap about her. Yeah , I think LF will make her evil, but I am hoping against hope that that doesn't happen. 

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I disagree.  

Mance Rayder is a man of the Night's Watch.  Jon is his commander.  Jon had a duty to judge Slynt and Mance fairly and equally.  He did not do that.  Slynt did not get justice from Jon.  

Jon was the one who sent Mance on his errand and even ordered another man of the watch to fetch the women to help with the mission.  Mance was acting on Jon's orders.  He was Jon's responsibility.  

That's not correct.  He is Melisandre's prisoner (acting on Stannis's authority).  Melisandre might well have deceived Stannis, but it is for Stannis, and Stannis only, to punish Melisandre and/or Mance Rayder. 

[The Commentator]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That's not correct.  He is Melisandre's prisoner (acting on Stannis's authority).  Melisandre might well have deceived Stannis, but it is for Stannis, and Stannis only, to punish Melisandre and/or Mance Rayder. 

Again, I disagree.  Mance Rayder is a man of the Night's Watch.  He is Jon's man.  Jon sent him on that mission.  Jon even ordered another man of the watch to fetch his accomplices for him.  Mel offered the idea but the decision was Jon's.  

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do you recall GRRM saying something about Jon Snow going down dark paths in the next book? What do you think that means?

Maybe? Is it from around the time Dance was published? It sort of rings a bell but I don’t recall any specifics. Do you know where can I find it? One thing I remember very vividly is an interview Martin gave sort of recently (2018?) to Forbes (maybe?) where he said something along the lines of, if some future leader is reading the novels now, he’d like them to model themselves after Jon and not Joffrey. And I think that says a lot about the character. 

As to Jon “going down dark paths”, I think he’ll be a lot less tolerant and forgiving. I think he will suffer fools no more. But I don’t really see Jon becoming evil, or, much less, being turned into a wight and fighting alongside the Others.

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe? Is it from around the time Dance was published? It sort of rings a bell but I don’t recall any specifics. Do you know where can I find it? One thing I remember very vividly is an interview Martin gave sort of recently (2018?) to Forbes (maybe?) where he said something along the lines of, if some future leader is reading the novels now, he’d like them to model themselves after Jon and not Joffrey. And I think that says a lot about the character. 

As to Jon “going down dark paths”, I think he’ll be a lot less tolerant and forgiving. I think he will suffer fools no more. But I don’t really see Jon becoming evil, or, much less, being turned into a wight and fighting alongside the Others.

My memory is the pits and I don't remember the specifics either.  Dark paths literally/figuratively, both?  That could mean anything and everything.  

He will be changed, darker even, less tolerant and forgiving definitely.  I don't think he will lose his core values but will have to make hard choices, even choices that seem cruel... "kill the boy...", etc.     

Fighting alongside the Others?  Jon is dead (presumably), Castle Black is in a state of chaos, Wun Wun is in a rampage and the if Borroq knows anything; the Others have just arrived at the Wall.   The mind boggles.

 

[Quoth the raven,]

On 5/6/2020 at 7:42 AM, SeanF said:

Janos Slynt got justice.

Mance Rayder was Stannis' prisoner.  It was up to Stannis' deputy at the Wall, Melisandre, to decide his fate.

Mance Rayder is a sworn brother of the Watch.  Jon is his commander.  

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 4/28/2020 at 9:39 AM, King Adrian Storm said:

This is why I think Stannis is going to have to be the one to take back Winterfell. It fits with how Grrm uses revenge for the Starks. 

I think its more about how tangled up a character gets into personal grievances. Right now that's just Jon - he's the one who has developed the biggest beef with Ramsay right now. If Rickon or Sansa take it back it's not quite the same since they aren't personally invested in it. 

I do agree with you though that the best revenge is survival. Let other people take out your enemies. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 5/6/2020 at 5:31 AM, LynnS said:

Do you recall GRRM saying something about Jon Snow going down dark paths in the next book? What do you think that means?

I think you might be referring to a panel at a con titled "Anti-Protagonists" (interesting title)

He said Jon would be much greyer https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2713