The Starks and Revenge

[King Adrian Storm]

Grrm likes to use the theme of revenge for the Stark's, but he uses it in a way you wouldn't expect. Most fantasy books have a hero who's out for revenge and usually they end up getting it, and killing the bad guys. Grrm uses the theme that everytime the Stark's try to do something out of revenge... they fail. Ned goes to Kingslanding to get revenge on the people who murdered Jon Arryn, and he's killed. Rob goes to war to get revenge for his father, and he gets killed. Jon tries to get revenge on Ramsay at the end of Adwd, and he's immediately killed.

This is why I think Stannis is going to have to be the one to take back Winterfell. It fits with how Grrm uses revenge for the Starks. 

There are a couple of objections to this theory.

1. What about Catelyn? Well she's not technically a Stark, she's a Tully. Also, Lady Stoneheart is a completely different character from Catelyn. 

2. Arya is most likely going to start killing people out of revenge. Yes, this is probably true, but I think that Arya's arc will end with her giving up revenge. I think she'll start killing people and become a dark character, then she gets the chance to kill Cersei, and at the last second she'll back out, before the darkness consumes her.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Grrm likes to use the theme of revenge for the Stark's, but he uses it in a way you wouldn't expect. Most fantasy books have a hero who's out for revenge and usually they end up getting it, and killing the bad guys. Grrm uses the theme that everytime the Stark's try to do something out of revenge... they fail. Ned goes to Kingslanding to get revenge on the people who murdered Jon Arryn, and he's killed. Rob goes to war to get revenge for his father, and he gets killed. Jon tries to get revenge on Ramsay at the end of Adwd, and he's immediately killed.

But Ned went to KL first b/c Cat insisted, and once he decided to go it was to find out the truth about Jon Arryn’s death. 

Robb first called the banners to try and get Ned back. Then it was war. 

And Jon decided to go and try to find Ramsay b/c Ramsay made demands and threatened Jon, the NW, and people who were guests. 

So, not one of the three set out for revenge. 

I also think revenge is a broader theme in the books, not just something connected to the Starks. 

3 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

This is why I think Stannis is going to have to be the one to take back Winterfell. It fits with how Grrm uses revenge for the Starks. 

I don’t think that’s why, but I do think it’s Stannis who will retake Winterfell. 

3 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

There are a couple of objections to this theory.

1. What about Catelyn? Well she's not technically a Stark, she's a Tully. Also, Lady Stoneheart is a completely different character from Catelyn. 

Agree. LSH is almost the opposite of Cat. 

3 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

2. Arya is most likely going to start killing people out of revenge. Yes, this is probably true, but I think that Arya's arc will end with her giving up revenge. I think she'll start killing people and become a dark character, then she gets the chance to kill Cersei, and at the last second she'll back out, before the darkness consumes her.

Maybe. 

[Bowen Marsh]

2 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Grrm likes to use the theme of revenge for the Stark's, but he uses it in a way you wouldn't expect. Most fantasy books have a hero who's out for revenge and usually they end up getting it, and killing the bad guys. Grrm uses the theme that everytime the Stark's try to do something out of revenge... they fail. Ned goes to Kingslanding to get revenge on the people who murdered Jon Arryn, and he's killed. Rob goes to war to get revenge for his father, and he gets killed. Jon tries to get revenge on Ramsay at the end of Adwd, and he's immediately killed.

This is why I think Stannis is going to have to be the one to take back Winterfell. It fits with how Grrm uses revenge for the Starks. 

There are a couple of objections to this theory.

1. What about Catelyn? Well she's not technically a Stark, she's a Tully. Also, Lady Stoneheart is a completely different character from Catelyn. 

2. Arya is most likely going to start killing people out of revenge. Yes, this is probably true, but I think that Arya's arc will end with her giving up revenge. I think she'll start killing people and become a dark character, then she gets the chance to kill Cersei, and at the last second she'll back out, before the darkness consumes her.

Not all of the Starks are revenge-minded.  Arya and Jon are.  Those two are blood-thirsty savages.  Whereas Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are pretty decent kids.  That could change but this is true for the time being.  Sansa could express her selfish side and murder the Arryn boy.  That would push her to the black.  She's not a bad person for now.  Being ignorant and dumb isn't a crime.  Until she does something worse than ratting out father's exit plans, she is just a very selfish, spoiled teenager.  She's not evil.  Bran and Rickon are wild but could grow out of  that  phase.

[Nevets]

Even Arya has yet to seek out anyone on her list for revenge.  Everyone she has killed is someone she has run into by accident.

I think she will give it up but I doubt Cersei will be the catalyst.  If I had to guess, my money would be on Ilyn Payne.  He's gotten a bit of buildup lately, he is in the Riverlands - a logical landing spot for Arya, and he doesn't really belong on her list.  Also, he is smart enough to see her coming, and curb-stomp her.

[Lollygag]

The culture of that world is revenge. The Targs all about the "usurper's dogs" and retaking the throne. Lannisters are always repaying debts which is often used in a way which promises revenge. There's Balon's revenge on the Starks.  It's everywhere.

Ned went to KL because he and Cat thought the Lannisters were making a move on the IT. Text below. Ned was looking to find the truth about Jon Arryn. That's not revenge. By that standard Angela Lansbury was out for revenge every time she tried to solve a mystery.

 

Ned was still alive when Robb went south. The purpose was to rescue him, Sansa and Arya.

Ramsay threatened to attack the Wall over a baseless out of the blue accusation.

Stoneheart is a completely different character, but the line of progression between the two was always there as Cat herself was blinded by the need to retaliate for the attempted murder of Bran at the expense of due diligence to the truth which we see all too often when someone loses a loved one to violence in rl. There's an overwhelming need to just get someone, even if the facts and motives are revealed to not line up or provide strong enough support for certainty. 

AGOT Catelyn VI

"We learned that to our sorrow, Ser Donnel," Catelyn said. Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone; six brave men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them. Even their names were fading.

 

 

 

[Loge]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Even Arya has yet to seek out anyone on her list for revenge.  Everyone she has killed is someone she has run into by accident.

 

Spoiler

She kills Raff the Sweetling in the WoW  preview chapter.

 

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Loge said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

She kills Raff the Sweetling in the WoW  preview chapter.

 

She ran into him by accident.  He happened to show up where she happened to be.  She did not seek him out.

[Loge]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

She ran into him by accident.  He happened to show up where she happened to be.  She did not seek him out.

She definitely sought him out once she had spotted him. She could have left him alone. She didn't. I wouldn't call that running into him by accident.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

22 minutes ago, Loge said:

She definitely sought him out once she had spotted him. She could have left him alone. She didn't. I wouldn't call that running into him by accident.

She also lured him away from his post to kill him. 

[Hugorfonics]

 

22 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

1. What about Catelyn? Well she's not technically a Stark, she's a Tully. Also, Lady Stoneheart is a completely different character from Catelyn. 

How so? Cats have 9 lives. This ones just more vengeful, a little less talkative

22 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

2. Arya is most likely going to start killing people out of revenge. 

Most likely going to start? Shes already in the game.

 

Ned went south the first time for revenge for his father, that worked out well. Second time not so much. There were other factors in play too, like Robbs war of revenge.

Catelyns war of revenge didnt have many other factors though. We can see hate and vengeance has truly manifested in Catelyn, is that what we should expect from Mercy?

Jon too has thoughts of revenge buy doesn't act on them, Sansa as well (who has no power to act)

Bran however, iirc, has no vengeful thoughts towards those who killed his family, along with Ramsay Theon or Jaime

[The Lord of the Crossing]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jon too has thoughts of revenge buy doesn't act on them, Sansa as well (who has no power to act)

Oh yes he did.  Part of his reasons for killing Slynt was revenge.  He attacked a superior officer for insulting his family.  Jon is almost as bad as Arya in the revenge department.  It was a good thing he was stopped before he could turn his quarrel with the Boltons into full war.  

On 4/28/2020 at 12:39 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

Grrm likes to use the theme of revenge for the Stark's, but he uses it in a way you wouldn't expect. Most fantasy books have a hero who's out for revenge and usually they end up getting it, and killing the bad guys. Grrm uses the theme that everytime the Stark's try to do something out of revenge... they fail. Ned goes to Kingslanding to get revenge on the people who murdered Jon Arryn, and he's killed. Rob goes to war to get revenge for his father, and he gets killed. Jon tries to get revenge on Ramsay at the end of Adwd, and he's immediately killed.

This is why I think Stannis is going to have to be the one to take back Winterfell. It fits with how Grrm uses revenge for the Starks. 

There are a couple of objections to this theory.

1. What about Catelyn? Well she's not technically a Stark, she's a Tully. Also, Lady Stoneheart is a completely different character from Catelyn. 

2. Arya is most likely going to start killing people out of revenge. Yes, this is probably true, but I think that Arya's arc will end with her giving up revenge. I think she'll start killing people and become a dark character, then she gets the chance to kill Cersei, and at the last second she'll back out, before the darkness consumes her.

The Starks have not failed.  Arya, Jon, Catelyn, and Robb have all been doing revenge.  You are right about one thing, it led to disaster for a lot of people.  The consequences of Jon's crimes at the wall are yet to be fully realized.  The murder of Rafford will have bad consequences for the people back in Westeros.  Catelyn's pursuit of the assassin took Jamie's vile crime and made into a war.  Innocent people like the old man in Braavos got caught in the blast.  

Stannis is not interested in getting even for the Starks.  He wants the throne.  It is best to stay out of the quarrel between Stark and Bolton if he succeeds in taking the throne.  Insane sayings like "the north remembers" does more harm than it does any good.  All sides were at fault.  The only way to move forward is to forgive.  The Starks were in the wrong too.  Very much so.  They have committed crimes against Westeros.  Robb rebelled.  Jon got the NW involved in a quarrel with Roose and Ramsay.  He let Mance Rayder walk.  Jon is dead and should hopefully stay dead.  Robb and Catelyn are both dead.  Sort of for Catelyn.  Forgive and forget.  It is the only way to move on for Stannis.

[Loose Bolt]

Main problem of extinction of house Stark is that without them there would be either many civil wars or North would became many very petty and hostile "kingdoms". Or without a Stark in Winterfell united North is not possible. So anyone who would want to rule united Westeros would need a Stark in WF.

[a black swan]

17 hours ago, Loge said:

She definitely sought him out once she had spotted him. She could have left him alone. She didn't. I wouldn't call that running into him by accident.

 

Raff being on her list was just very convenient for her larger goal that day. She had a mission to complete and had no intention of continuing as Mercy after that day.  @sweetsunray goes into more detail here:

 

 

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

She also lured him away from his post to kill him. 

She lured him out as means to complete her job for the Faceless Men. The fact he was on her

[Adam Yozza]

14 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Oh yes he did.  Part of his reasons for killing Slynt was revenge.  He attacked a superior officer for insulting his family.  Jon is almost as bad as Arya in the revenge department.  It was a good thing he was stopped before he could turn his quarrel with the Boltons into full war. 

Ah, typical Stark haters. I wondered when you'd show up. So, tell me. Did Jon not offer Slynt command of a castle on the wall? Did he not, when Slynt refused those orders, offer him a second and third chance? Are we not present in Jon's mind as he goes through the possible solutions to this problem and see that at that point, there really wasn't any other option but to kill him? Revenge never enters into it.

As for the Bolton's are you just being willfully blind to the fact that Ramsay had just threatened to destroy the NW if his demands were not met? Demands that, along with being morally questionable, are also impossible to meet because the NW doesn't have the people in question. 

14 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Starks have not failed.  Arya, Jon, Catelyn, and Robb have all been doing revenge.  You are right about one thing, it led to disaster for a lot of people.  The consequences of Jon's crimes at the wall are yet to be fully realized.  The murder of Rafford will have bad consequences for the people back in Westeros.  Catelyn's pursuit of the assassin took Jamie's vile crime and made into a war.  Innocent people like the old man in Braavos got caught in the blast. 

The consequences of Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck's treason have yet to be realized. And I doubt the death of some random guardsmen will cause any sort of reaction at all. And while Catelyn isn't exactly innocent in this either, she wasn't the one to call the banner's and blatantly break the King's Peace out of pride so if we're putting the blame on her as a catalyst, then we need to place equal blame on the ones who caused her actions; Jaime, Cersei, Joffrey and Littlefinger.

14 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Stannis is not interested in getting even for the Starks.  He wants the throne.  It is best to stay out of the quarrel between Stark and Bolton if he succeeds in taking the throne.  Insane sayings like "the north remembers" does more harm than it does any good.  All sides were at fault.  The only way to move forward is to forgive.  The Starks were in the wrong too.  Very much so.  They have committed crimes against Westeros.  Robb rebelled.  Jon got the NW involved in a quarrel with Roose and Ramsay.  He let Mance Rayder walk.  Jon is dead and should hopefully stay dead.  Robb and Catelyn are both dead.  Sort of for Catelyn.  Forgive and forget.  It is the only way to move on for Stannis.

Nope, Stannis is hoping to find a Stark to support because he needs to unite the North behind him and he can't do that with the Bolton's in charge. All sides were at fault yes and the North can probably , under the right circumstances, make peace with the Lannister's and they're already starting to support Stannis who previously was not an ally. But they won't forgive the Frey's and Bolton's for their part in committing a war crime and they shouldn't either.

So if Robb justifiably rebelling against a tyrant is a crime against Westeros then Stannis is as well then, no? And Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn too. Oh and Tywin; you know the one who invaded the Riverlands and broke the King's peace to begin with, the one who started the war.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, a black swan said:

 

Raff being on her list was just very convenient for her larger goal that day. She had a mission to complete and had no intention of continuing as Mercy after that day.  @sweetsunray goes into more detail here:

 

 

She lured him out as means to complete her job for the Faceless Men. The fact he was on her

Raff couldn't be the target. Faceless men dont kill ones they know.

But interesting post @sweetsunray. 

It does rather seem that this would be the last day Mercy would put on her face and thusly Arya does have an assassination job that day 

[The Young Maester]

Arya is definitely going into the revenge path. Jons decisions to fight Ramsay has more to do with wanting to rescue his sister, Ramsay threatening the watch is the justification that Jon needed to do what he always wanted as soon as the boltons took winterfell. Id say he obviously wants vengeance against the boltons, but his desire to rescue Arya overwhelms his desire for vengeance. Him helping Stannis is evidence that he wants them to fall to Stannis, this could only be because he wants vengeance for their participation on the Red wedding and he probably feels that they shouldnt sit where his father used to sit. 

Robbs war for vengeance began with Ned being killed. But it quickly changed to a secession movement. In ASOS, he all but abandons his quest for vengeance in order to preserve his kingdom. This can be seen when he marches north and all but abandons the riverlands. But he also states that he wont bend the knee whilst the boy that killed his father still lives, which is evidence that he still desires vengeance, but he is putting his kingdom and the movement for independence first as its clear to him that he wont be killing Joffrey any time soon. 

Grrm clearly wanted Neds and robbs death to be due to their honourable traits. Not their quest for vengeance, as the reasons they died wasnt because of their vengeful driven ways. Jon failed because he wanted to fight the boltons which was driven by his desire to see his sister freed and in his hands. 

Lady stone heart is definitely having the time of her life killing Freys. Whether stoneheart and Catelyn are considered the same I dont know its all down to the reader. But Catelyn was never a vengeful character, we can easily see this when she pursues the lords of the riverlands and north to seek peace even tho Joffrey just killed her husband and lover. The other aspect on when she wants Tyrion to be brought to justice for his crimes, she never states that he should die, and at the same time she starts doubting whether he was the one that ordered the catspaw. 

This theory about Starks and vengeance, although seems believable at first it dosent add up to the bigger picture as it just rids itself of all the realism. Because whilst let’s say the Martells or Lannister can extract vengeance. Why can’t the Starks? It makes more sense for George to use Robb and Ned as examples of why honourable men will fail at the game of thrones. Because we might soon see other characters fall due to their honourable ways.

[Texas Hold Em]

14 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Main problem of extinction of house Stark is that without them there would be either many civil wars or North would became many very petty and hostile "kingdoms". Or without a Stark in Winterfell united North is not possible. So anyone who would want to rule united Westeros would need a Stark in WF.

Not really.  The north is weak and will stay that way for a very long time.  They will support anybody who can lead them against the Others.  It's a matter of survival.  They don't realize the threat of the Others right now and that is why they continue to play their petty games.  I'm looking at Wayman Manderly.  He should accept the defeat and humiliation of the north.  They did rebel against the ruler after all and tried to break the kingdom apart.  They are getting off rather lightly and in my opinion should have been penalized more harshly. 

[Adam Yozza]

26 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Not really.  The north is weak and will stay that way for a very long time.  They will support anybody who can lead them against the Others.  It's a matter of survival.  They don't realize the threat of the Others right now and that is why they continue to play their petty games.  I'm looking at Wayman Manderly.  He should accept the defeat and humiliation of the north.  They did rebel against the ruler after all and tried to break the kingdom apart.  They are getting off rather lightly and in my opinion should have been penalized more harshly. 

No, they rebelled against a tyrant who'd just murdered their beloved liege. Even so there wouldn't be half as much of an issue if the Lannister's had won the war conventionally. Instead the enlisted the Frey's and Bolton's to break a sacred right that every part of the Kingdom values and then expected the Lords of the North to just accept being forced under Bolton rule.

[Texas Hold Em]

Just now, Adam Yozza said:

No, they rebelled against a tyrant who'd just murdered their beloved liege. Even so there wouldn't be half as much of an issue if the Lannister's had won the war conventionally. Instead the enlisted the Frey's and Bolton's to break a sacred right that every part of the Kingdom values and then expected the Lords of the North to just accept being forced under Bolton rule.

No, their beloved overlord confessed to treason in public.  There will be little support coming from the south for a Stark restoration.  Except perhaps from the Tullys. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 4/28/2020 at 9:06 PM, Nevets said:

Even Arya has yet to seek out anyone on her list for revenge.  Everyone she has killed is someone she has run into by accident.

I think she will give it up but I doubt Cersei will be the catalyst.  If I had to guess, my money would be on Ilyn Payne.  He's gotten a bit of buildup lately, he is in the Riverlands - a logical landing spot for Arya, and he doesn't really belong on her list.  Also, he is smart enough to see her coming, and curb-stomp her.

 

"Everyone she has killed is someone she has run into by accident."

Oh gosh.  She didn't just happen to accidentally murder the old man.  The insurance underwriter.  That man had nothing to do with Arya.  She went out of the way to carry out this murder.  She has the traits of a sociopath. Might even be one.  Arya's mind is totally shattered.  She is very, very sick.  Her trajectory is headed to tragedy.  I hope the tragedy she causes will only harm her and the Starks instead of the innocents.