Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[corbon]

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Rhaegar wasn't the only one sent to search for the knight of the laughing tree. The text also mentions Gregor Clegane and his men searching, and while they were searching they stopped at an inn and raped the innkeeper's daughter. 

It does? Can you show where please?

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I disagree with you that the Targaryens had anything to gain by abducting Lyanna, unless your position is that they were holding her hostage in order to prevent an uprising? Because if that is what you're saying, the plan was foolish and completely failed. If anything, it antagonized the Starks and sparked the rebellion. And I might point out that Hoster Tully didn't join the Rebellion until after Ned and Jon Arryn negotiated marriage alliances for Tully men to help save Robert in Stoney Sept.

I didn't say that the Targaryens had anything to gain. Rhaegar is a different matter. The World Book is pretty clear that he was up to something and Aegon turned up to Harrenhal because suspected [probably rightly] that Rhaegar was aiming to get support for a transfer of power. A rival alliance of the northern lords orchestrated by the Blessed St.Jon of Arryn threatened that. Warning them off with the crown of roses failed, so snatching one half of the marriage probably seemed a good idea.

Yes it all went pear-shaped in so many ways, but ASoIF has always been a story of unintended consequences

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 6/23/2020 at 11:46 AM, Frey family reunion said:

We really don't know when Lyanna was taken do we?  Other than it was in 282.  Rhaegar left King's landing in January of 282, but we don't know how long it took him to ultimately end up in the Riverlands.  The key word being ultimately.  It implies he traveled to other locations first.

I don't think it is even canon that Lyanna was abducted. 

[Lady Dyanna]

4 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I don't think it is even canon that Lyanna was abducted. 

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

ETA. It’s not specified as “abduction” but Bran’s explanation sounds pretty close to me. 

[Melifeather]

Often times I wonder if Meera's tale is more play-like than a factual account. Think of how silly some of the elements are in Shakespeare's comedy A Midsummer Night's Dream, or having characters that represent reason versus emotion. I think we should question some of it since Meera repeatedly asks Bran if his father told him this tale before. Oh, it's true enough that Lyanna was given the laurel of roses, but since we are told that tourneys are mummers play-acting at war, it makes me think that the story of the knight of the laughing tree is being regaled in the form of a play. Take for example the Bloody Hand that Arya noted in the Mercy chapter. Bobono wears a grossly exaggerated penis:

Quote

And Bobono’s cock was indeed flopping out. It was made to flop out, for the rape. What a hideous thing, Mercy thought as she knelt before the dwarf to fix him. The cock was a foot long and as thick as her arm, big enough to be seen from the highest balcony. The dyer had done a poor job with the leather, though; the thing was a mottled pink and white, with a bulbous head the color of a plum. Mercy pushed it back into Bobono’s breeches and laced him back up. “Mercy,” he sang as she tied him tight, “Mercy, Mercy, come to my room tonight and make a man of me.”

It just makes me think the knight of the laughing tree story is actually a play that invokes the supernatural and portrays the humans as mummers acting in some grand mystical performance. The use of "wolfmaid" or "quiet wolf" and the like, are details that should cause us to view the story in this way.

 

[alienarea]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:42 PM, Melifeather said:

Often times I wonder if Meera's tale is more play-like than a factual account. Think of how silly some of the elements are in Shakespeare's comedy A Midsummer Night's Dream, or having characters that represent reason versus emotion. I think we should question some of it since Meera repeatedly asks Bran if his father told him this tale before. Oh, it's true enough that Lyanna was given the laurel of roses, but since we are told that tourneys are mummers play-acting at war, it makes me think that the story of the knight of the laughing tree is being regaled in the form of a play. Take for example the Bloody Hand that Arya noted in the Mercy chapter. Bobono wears a grossly exaggerated penis:

It just makes me think the knight of the laughing tree story is actually a play that invokes the supernatural and portrays the humans as mummers acting in some grand mystical performance. The use of "wolfmaid" or "quiet wolf" and the like, are details that should cause us to view the story in this way.

 

It's just one letter from play to ploy. Which, of course, leads back to the opening theme of the Pink Letter, and from there to Mance's little ploy.

From Ramsay's point of view, Theon is abducting his bride. But "I want my bride back" is something Robert Baratheon would have never written to Rhaegar Targaryen.

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, alienarea said:

It's just one letter from play to ploy. Which, of course, leads back to the opening theme of the Pink Letter, and from there to Mance's little ploy.

From Ramsay's point of view, Theon is abducting his bride. But "I want my bride back" is something Robert Baratheon would have never written to Rhaegar Targaryen.

I just think the speech from the knight of the laughing tree after he/she won was very theatrical. Not every detail in the story may be how the events actually happened. 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I just think the speech from the knight of the laughing tree after he/she won was very theatrical. Not every detail in the story may be how the events actually happened. 

That is a good point. Maybe in non-theatrical Westeros he (she?) got found out.

Imagine the search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree continues after the tourney and it gets revealed (by Benjen?) that it has been Lyanna. Then Lyanna is maybe brought to Rhaegar but it's not an abduction unless a certain young schemer at the inn seizes the opportunity and proclaims it is one. While Rhaegar and Lyanna are elsewhere, Brandon storms for KL, and when Rhaegar puts down the harp, Westeros is on fire?

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 6/25/2020 at 1:57 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

ETA. It’s not specified as “abduction” but Bran’s explanation sounds pretty close to me. 

Thank you. So it is in world rumor/tale as far as we know. Currently no eye witness.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 6/25/2020 at 5:49 AM, Black Crow said:

I didn't say that the Targaryens had anything to gain. Rhaegar is a different matter. The World Book is pretty clear that he was up to something and Aegon turned up to Harrenhal because suspected [probably rightly] that Rhaegar was aiming to get support for a transfer of power. A rival alliance of the northern lords orchestrated by the Blessed St.Jon of Arryn threatened that. Warning them off with the crown of roses failed, so snatching one half of the marriage probably seemed a good idea.

Yes it all went pear-shaped in so many ways, but ASoIF has always been a story of unintended consequences

I like this idea. It fits with canon text as far as I know and the case can be made with only canon text as well. It sure sounds alot better than Rhaegar throwing everything away for the love of a 14 year old girl and all the twisting of the canon text that requires.

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Thank you. So it is in world rumor/tale as far as we know. Currently no eye witness.

Sounds about right. And I’m pretty sure that they refer to songs that also carry the same tale. Not sure that we actually got one though. 

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Sounds about right. And I’m pretty sure that they refer to songs that also carry the same tale. Not sure that we actually got one though. 

We didn't. I don't have the passage to hand, but as I recall it was Robert who complained about it.

[alienarea]

Why did Aerys ask for the heads of Robert and Ned, but not for the heads of Benjen, Stannis or Renly?

Seems like Jon Arryn was the real target.

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Why did Aerys ask for the heads of Robert and Ned, but not for the heads of Benjen, Stannis or Renly?

Seems like Jon Arryn was the real target.

I was actually just wondering the same thing before I came here and saw your comment. It could be that Arryn was the Target and he was trying to get the loyalty of both the remaining Starks and Baratheons with a show of force? I wasn’t thinking of John Arryn specifically, but if there truly was an alliance forming prior and the Targaryens actions were in response to it, a lot of things start to actually make more sense. At least to me. Gut instinct is that there was a whole lot of politics involved that we currently know nothing about. 

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I was actually just wondering the same thing before I came here and saw your comment. It could be that Arryn was the Target and he was trying to get the loyalty of both the remaining Starks and Baratheons with a show of force? I wasn’t thinking of John Arryn specifically, but if there truly was an alliance forming prior and the Targaryens actions were in response to it, a lot of things start to actually make more sense. At least to me. Gut instinct is that there was a whole lot of politics involved that we currently know nothing about. 

After the rebellion Jon Arryn became Hand of the King until he got murdered 15 (?) years later. As he could not become king for lack of claim that was the maximum he could achieve and he did. With Robert Baratheon mostly drinking and whoring, he was de facto ruling.

Ned Stark is always fond of him, but he probably didn't see him after the war. Ned didn't go to King's Landing, and Jon Arryn never visited Winterfell as far as I know.

We do not know what Jon Arryn really thought of Ned and the Starks, but it looks like he used him as a tool. He needed Robert to become king, and the Starks' support for the rebellion. As Brandon Stark was easy to read and his actions are quite predictable, I wouldn't put it past Jon Arryn to have a hand in Lyanna's disappearance to fuel his plans. When you play the Game of Thrones ...

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, alienarea said:

Why did Aerys ask for the heads of Robert and Ned, but not for the heads of Benjen, Stannis or Renly?

Seems like Jon Arryn was the real target.

None of the latter were in the custody of St. Jon is the short answer. A more pertinent question would be why Robert was demanded? There's nothing in the text or the World Book to directly implicate the Baratheons - other than than Trouserless Bob's betrothal to Lyanna.

The fact that he was targeted [assuming there is more than Arryn's loud assertion that he had been summonsed] suggests that Aerys was aware of the plot behind the betrothal and that he knew why Rhaegar had lifted Trouserless Bob's betrothed.

[alienarea]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

None of the latter were in the custody of St. Jon is the short answer. A more pertinent question would be why Robert was demanded? There's nothing in the text or the World Book to directly implicate the Baratheons - other than than Trouserless Bob's betrothal to Lyanna.

The fact that he was targeted [assuming there is more than Arryn's loud assertion that he had been summonsed] suggests that Aerys was aware of the plot behind the betrothal and that he knew why Rhaegar had lifted Trouserless Bob's betrothed.

Alternate version:

Jon Arryn plays for power. Rickard Stark has "Southron ambitions". Jon Arryn fosters Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark. Robert has some Targaryen blood. Alliances are formed.

Aerys learns about this Rhaegar gives the crown of blue roses to Lyanna. A warning.

Jon Arryn has Lyanna captured. Brandon Stark rides for KL and Aerys acts. Both very predictable. Rebellion starts.

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Alternate version:

Jon Arryn plays for power. Rickard Stark has "Southron ambitions". Jon Arryn fosters Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark. Robert has some Targaryen blood. Alliances are formed.

Aerys learns about this Rhaegar gives the crown of blue roses to Lyanna. A warning.

Jon Arryn has Lyanna captured. Brandon Stark rides for KL and Aerys acts. Both very predictable. Rebellion starts.

I can’t get past the notion that the Tywin Lannister played a key role in all of this as well. I’d be very surprised if he didn’t end up being part of something that was extremely detrimental to the Starks. It would be an interesting role reversal with the kidnapping of both Lyanna and Tyrion. Another idea that I’ve played around with is that Tywin was somehow responsible for betraying the alliance to Aerys. Possibly using Lyanna to trigger a reaction from the somewhat reluctant to act Starks?  

[alienarea]

Would want to read a prequel book with pov chapters by Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister, Rickard Stark and Aerys Targaryen. Maybe adding Elia of Dorne and Arthur Dayne.

[Black Crow]

Wouldn't we all. While I'm in no doubt as to the Blessed St Jon of Arryn having an important role in getting Bob Baratheon on to the throne, I don't see him having a hand in Lyanna's abduction, that's not only a stretch but an unnecessary one.

Lyanna's abduction was aimed at frustrating rather than furthering his knavish tricks.

On theother hand I'm open to to Tywin's involvement somewhere although have no idea how