Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[alienarea]

I guess it was know to both Robert and Ned that Rhaegar hasn't been in KL for a while prior to the battle at the Trident. Then Rhaegar shows up with a fresh army from Dorne. This indicates he has been to Dorne immediately before the battle, and hints at Lyanna being there.

Murdering Elia and her children could have triggered the murder of Lyanna (by the Kingsguard)?

Why lift the siege first before going to Dorne? And why would Ned need to lift the siege?

One could get the idea that it was more convenient to have Lyanna dead due to Rhaegar's rape than finding her alive with a child of love?

 

[alienarea]

Oh, and as I just opened page ten of the thread, here's my Über-crackpot who wrote the Pink Letter:

The Hooded Man of Winterfell

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I don't think Robert was there when Ned found Lyanna, and Lyanna extracted some promises. In order to keep those promises, Ned admits he's had to lie - even to Robert, so for me I'm not convinced Lyanna was pregnant or raped. I suspect she died of a sword wound to the belly.

I agree that Robert was not there when Lyanna was found.  Ned may not have been there either (especially if she was in Starfall).   But if Eddard wasn't there than the only way that Eddard would have been able to trust that Lyanna was found and no longer in any (immediate) danger was if she was found by someone that Eddard trusted.  Which is why I keep going back to Howland Reed.  

ETA: Admittedly I'm also influenced by a certain Sumerian abduction mythology.  The parallels to Lyanna's abduction with some of the other abduction mythologies resonates with me a bit.  You can see echos of Persephone, or Europa, or Daphne, or Helen or Guinevere in Lyanna's abduction tale.  However, there is a lesser known Sumerian abduction mythology that is a bit more on the nose because it involves the damsel being abducted by a dragon.

In one of  the Sumerian tales of Ereshkigal (their goddess of the underworld), Ereshkigal first becomes associated with the underworld when she is kidnapped by the dragon, Kur who drags her to the underworld.  Her brothers (all gods themselves) seek out to find her.  It is the god of water and mischief, Enki, who in his little paddleboat ultimately finds her.  

And while the tale is fragmented based on other mythologies involving Ereshkigal she apparently stays in the underworld as its queen.  

So we have the dragon Kur = Rhaegar, the queen of the underworld Ereshkigal  = Lyanna, and Enki, god of water and mischief in his little paddleboat = Howland.

[alienarea]

Another thing that is odd about the battle of the Trident: Rhaegar is killed by Robert, the leader of the Dornish troops is killed in the battle, and Barristan Selmy heavily wounded. The war is decided.

Following Littlefingers "Someone always tells", one of the Dornish soldiers should have told that Lyanna is in Dorne? And then maybe Ned and / or Robert would have gone there first?

Because they don't, and Ned even lifts the siege before going there, I conclude that:

- Ned and or Robert know where Lyanna is

- Lyanna either is already dead or not thought to be in any danger, because they do not hurry at all to find her

- the ToJ happens without Lyanna

[corbon]

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Another thing that is odd about the battle of the Trident: Rhaegar is killed by Robert, the leader of the Dornish troops is killed in the battle, and Barristan Selmy heavily wounded. The war is decided.

Following Littlefingers "Someone always tells", one of the Dornish soldiers should have told that Lyanna is in Dorne? And then maybe Ned and / or Robert would have gone there first?

Why would any of the Dornish contingent of Rhaegar's army know she is in Dorne?

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Because they don't, and Ned even lifts the siege before going there, I conclude that:

- Ned and or Robert know where Lyanna is

- Lyanna either is already dead or not thought to be in any danger, because they do not hurry at all to find her

- the ToJ happens without Lyanna

A much simpler answer is that none of them knew she was there.

Ned and Robert aren't desperately searching for Lyanna at the end of the war because she's been missing for over a year and there are simply no leads to follow as to where she is or what happened to her.
Its all very well wanting to do something urgently, but if you don't have any place to start you can't start, so you get on with the other things you have to do. And there were definitely other things that needed doing!

Somehow Ned gets a lead at, around, or after, relieving Storms End, and follows it.

The only mystery about why Ned and Robert didn't go searching for Lyanna before Ned clearly did is how many people seem think actions for the sake of it, without direction, are a normal and sensible thing for leaders. 
Mind you, that does seem to be the current mindset.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

I think it would be highly productive to have a thread that lists what "we know" about the Harrenhal Tourney in 281 through Robert's Rebellion through Ned arriving home in Winterfell after everything in 284-85(86?). There have to be answers in there somewhere.

Like Ned blaming Lyanna and her wolf blood for her death, but never blames Rhaegar. 

Or Doran Martell only sending 10,000 troops to defend the crown when the lives of his sister, niece and nephew hung in the balance. Not to mention Dorne's marriage to into the Royal Family. 

Or it being odd that Robert and Ned don't seem to have any urgency to find Lyanna after Rhaega's death and it doesn't seem like Robert even tried to question him. 

That Ashara was able to travel 

That Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QOLAB and you'd think he'd know beforehand it would upset who it did end up upsetting. 

Etc.

[Black Crow]

Another thing to consider here is a stray remark by Trouserless Bob complaining about the ballad singers being responsible for turning the abduction into a romance [annoyingly I can't find it right now] which opens the possibility that more was known, or believed to be known, than we do about what happened. [cue also Bob's complaint about Rhaegar having his wicked way with her]

Then factor in the Ashara Dayne business. Just as in our world the popular press/ballad singers are never going to let the truth and fact-checking get in the way of a good story.

Confuse the two - which would very easily be done and its the Lady Lyanna, who gets carried off by the handsome prince but then tops herself.

Allied to the absence of any real contact I think the most likely explanation for the lack of urgency in finding her during and after the rebellion is that she's already assumed to be dead until Lord Eddard learns otherwise

[Melifeather]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ned may not have been there either (especially if she was in Starfall). 

This is difficult for me to believe, since Ned's words about Lyanna's desire to go home and his repeated recollection of "promise me Ned". He must have spoke to her while she was dying, because as soon as he agreed to her promises, she died.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This is difficult for me to believe, since Ned's words about Lyanna's desire to go home and his repeated recollection of "promise me Ned". He must have spoke to her while she was dying, because as soon as he agreed to her promises, she died.

 

No, you misunderstand me.  Ned was certainly there when Lyanna died.  I'm suggesting that she was located earlier than at the time of her death.  My guess is neither Eddard nor Robert were present when she was located.  I think her deathbed scene could have occurred at Starfall after the battle at the tower of joy.

[Melifeather]

52 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, you misunderstand me.  Ned was certainly there when Lyanna died.  I'm suggesting that she was located earlier than at the time of her death.  My guess is neither Eddard nor Robert were present when she was located.  I think her deathbed scene could have occurred at Starfall after the battle at the tower of joy.

I see. Certainly possible, but my preferred speculation - at this point anyway - is that Ned found Lyanna after the Battle of the Bells, but before the Battle at the Trident. I posit that he crossed the Gods Eye (on Ned’s Ferry, as Dunk and Egg before him) on his way from Stoney Sept to rejoin Jon Arryn’s forces somewhere near the Ruby Ford of the Trident. The ruins of Whitewalls are along the eastern shore of the Gods Eye south of Harrenhall and could provide the background of “a tower long fallen”.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I see. Certainly possible, but my preferred speculation - at this point anyway - is that Ned found Lyanna after the Battle of the Bells, but before the Battle at the Trident. I posit that he crossed the Gods Eye (on Ned’s Ferry, as Dunk and Egg before him) on his way from Stoney Sept to rejoin Jon Arryn’s forces somewhere near the Ruby Ford of the Trident. The ruins of Whitewalls are along the eastern shore of the Gods Eye south of Harrenhall and could provide the background of “a tower long fallen”.

In a lot of ways the conversation that Ned and Robert about getting vengeance for Lyanna at the Trident would make more sense if they knew Lyanna was already dead at the time of the Trident.  The problems is that quote about it taking Lyanna's death and the grief they shared over it to bring them back together.  No matter how finely I parse it, the only thing that I can take away from it was that Lyanna did not die until after Eddard and Robert's argument at King's Landing.

And then we have the version of the story that Bran was told (presumably by Eddard, but who knows):

Quote

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained.  "Robert fought a war to win her back.  He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

So even in the sequence that Bran is given we have :

1.  Robert and Lyanna were betrothed to marry

2.  Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

3.  Rhaegar rapes Lyanna.

4.  Robert fought a war to get her back

5. Robert kills Rhaegar

6.  However Lyanna then dies so Robert can't get her back.

Remarkably even the tale told to the children was pretty matter of fact about Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar.  It doesn't seem that there is any grey area as to whether or not Lyanna and Rhaegar had sexual intercourse.  It seems that this is considered a fact and not simply a possibility.  

It doesn't seem compelling to me that at the time of the Trident they would have just assumed Lyanna was dead at that point.  And if you look at the conversation between Robert and Eddard, Robert very explicitly says that he killed Rhaegar in retaliation for what he did to Lyanna.  And we know that Robert very firmly believed that what Rhaegar did to Lyanna was rape her thousands of times.

So once again I keep going back to the idea that the only way that Robert would have been sure that Rhaegar had sexual intercourse with Lyanna is that he was given absolute proof of the fact that she had sexual intercourse.  And the only thing that would be beyond all doubt evidence for Robert to accept is if she was or had been pregnant.  Which then leads me to conclude that someone found Lyanna prior to the Battle of the Trident which is how Robert would have learned of Lyanna's pregnancy.

[LynnS]

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children … it would be vile … unspeakable …"

"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. "You can't get your hands on this one, can you?" he said quietly.

 

Did Robert's thirst for revenge start with Rhaegar's children.  If so, then this passage suggests that Lyanna was dead at this point.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Did Robert's thirst for revenge start with Rhaegar's children.  If so, then this passage suggests that Lyanna was dead at this point.

On the contrary, I think this quote shows that at the time of Rhaegar's children being murdered, Robert was convinced that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna hundreds of times.  I think that was the source of Robert's rage at the Trident.  He knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lyanna had been sexually active.  I think based on Rhaegar abducting Lyanna, he assumed Rhaegar was responsible.  And the only acceptable scenario in his mind how this could have occurred is that Rhaegar forced himself on Lyanna.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In a lot of ways the conversation that Ned and Robert about getting vengeance for Lyanna at the Trident would make more sense if they knew Lyanna was already dead at the time of the Trident. 

Assumed, is enough. They don't need to know it for sure.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problems is that quote about it taking Lyanna's death and the grief they shared over it to bring them back together.  No matter how finely I parse it, the only thing that I can take away from it was that Lyanna did not die until after Eddard and Robert's argument at King's Landing.

Agreed. There is no other way to parse it truly.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And then we have the version of the story that Bran was told (presumably by Eddard, but who knows):

So even in the sequence that Bran is given we have :

1.  Robert and Lyanna were betrothed to marry

2.  Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

3.  Rhaegar rapes Lyanna.

4.  Robert fought a war to get her back

5. Robert kills Rhaegar

6.  However Lyanna then dies so Robert can't get her back.

Remarkably even the tale told to the children was pretty matter of fact about Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar.  It doesn't seem that there is any grey area as to whether or not Lyanna and Rhaegar had sexual intercourse.  It seems that this is considered a fact and not simply a possibility.  

That doesn't mean it was known, as in proven. Just believed and not un-proven.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It doesn't seem compelling to me that at the time of the Trident they would have just assumed Lyanna was dead at that point. 

Why not? She was 'abducted' over a year ago and there has been no sign of her since. Her 'abductor' has reappeared and still no sign of her. What else would she be but dead?

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And if you look at the conversation between Robert and Eddard, Robert very explicitly says that he killed Rhaegar in retaliation for what he did to Lyanna.  And we know that Robert very firmly believed that what Rhaegar did to Lyanna was rape her thousands of times.

So once again I keep going back to the idea that the only way that Robert would have been sure that Rhaegar had sexual intercourse with Lyanna is that he was given absolute proof of the fact that she had sexual intercourse. 

Seriously? Proof is required? Robert's not a deeply analytical personality. He 'knows' because it suits him to believe it. not because of any evidence. Just as he 'knows' Wylla is Jon Snow's mother and that that was Ned's 'one time'.

[alienarea]

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

Seriously? Proof is required? Robert's not a deeply analytical personality. He 'knows' because it suits him to believe it. not because of any evidence. Just as he 'knows' Wylla is Jon Snow's mother and that that was Ned's 'one time'.

Also, because if Robert had been the one to abduct a woman he desired, he would have raped her for sure. In his mind that is the point of abducting a woman: to rape her. No, he does not need proof.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

46 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Also, because if Robert had been the one to abduct a woman he desired, he would have raped her for sure. In his mind that is the point of abducting a woman: to rape her. No, he does not need proof.

The following is as close to proof as we get. It also happens to be the best supporting evidence for RLJ. When Ned agrees with Robert...

The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. “I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.”

“You did,” Ned reminded him.
“Only once,” Robert said bitterly.

[corbon]

53 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Also, because if Robert had been the one to abduct a woman he desired, he would have raped her for sure. In his mind that is the point of abducting a woman: to rape her. No, he does not need proof.

 I didn't want to tar Robert with that brush - I don't think he's the abducting or raping type. But yes. To him that might well be the automatic assumption for an abduction - why else take a woman?

[Melifeather]

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In a lot of ways the conversation that Ned and Robert about getting vengeance for Lyanna at the Trident would make more sense if they knew Lyanna was already dead at the time of the Trident.  The problems is that quote about it taking Lyanna's death and the grief they shared over it to bring them back together.  No matter how finely I parse it, the only thing that I can take away from it was that Lyanna did not die until after Eddard and Robert's argument at King's Landing.

And then we have the version of the story that Bran was told (presumably by Eddard, but who knows):

So even in the sequence that Bran is given we have :

1.  Robert and Lyanna were betrothed to marry

2.  Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

3.  Rhaegar rapes Lyanna.

4.  Robert fought a war to get her back

5. Robert kills Rhaegar

6.  However Lyanna then dies so Robert can't get her back.

Remarkably even the tale told to the children was pretty matter of fact about Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar.  It doesn't seem that there is any grey area as to whether or not Lyanna and Rhaegar had sexual intercourse.  It seems that this is considered a fact and not simply a possibility.  

It doesn't seem compelling to me that at the time of the Trident they would have just assumed Lyanna was dead at that point.  And if you look at the conversation between Robert and Eddard, Robert very explicitly says that he killed Rhaegar in retaliation for what he did to Lyanna.  And we know that Robert very firmly believed that what Rhaegar did to Lyanna was rape her thousands of times.

So once again I keep going back to the idea that the only way that Robert would have been sure that Rhaegar had sexual intercourse with Lyanna is that he was given absolute proof of the fact that she had sexual intercourse.  And the only thing that would be beyond all doubt evidence for Robert to accept is if she was or had been pregnant.  Which then leads me to conclude that someone found Lyanna prior to the Battle of the Trident which is how Robert would have learned of Lyanna's pregnancy.

My position on these points are thus:

Ned and Robert had a falling out over the murders of Elia and the children, well, more specifically the children.

Ned and Robert had a reconciliation over their shared grief. The text doesn't describe when this occurred, so as far as I'm concerned it could have happened anywhere from a few months after the Rebellion or even years later. The text does not tell us the circumstances of their next face to face. It's entirely possible that they may not have seen each other again until the Greyjoy Rebellion of 289 - six years after Robert's Rebellion.

I've already suggested that Ned lied about the circumstances of Lyanna's death in order to keep his promises - lies that he had lived for 14 years.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."

"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. "There was no honor in that conquest."

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

"That did not bring her back." Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. "The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown … it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe … and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike."

Vengence is typically taken after the offense - not before. Ned nearly told Robert the truth during the above conversation, but Robert thought he meant the part about finding Jaime on the throne and the trickery the Lannister's used to Sack Kings Landing, but that obviously was not it. As Robert said, these facts were well-known. And after Robert laughed at Ned's account of finding Jaime on the throne, he galloped away before Ned could finish:

Quote

For a moment Ned did not follow. He had run out of words, and he was filled with a vast sense of helplessness. Not for the first time, he wondered what he was doing here and why he had come. He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that. He belonged in Winterfell. He belonged with Catelyn in her grief, and with Bran.

What I think Ned was trying to say had to do with one of Lyanna's promises - something that many other readers suspect - that Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna. As Ned said, there was "no honor in that conquest". What conquest was Ned referring to? The conquest for the throne. NOT for finding Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne and NOT for sacking Kings Landing, but the overthrow of the Targaryen regime which was sparked by Lyanna's abduction.

All of Ned's fury and disgust is aimed at the Lannisters - NOT the Targaryens, which he should be furious with if they were involved. The RLJ crowd explains his lack of anger towards Targaryens as being due to Lyanna's willingness to go with Rhaegar. If Rhaegar took Lyanna by force, then Ned should be filled with hatred for him and the Targaryens, but he isn't, so how can you reconcile your theory of Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar with Ned's lack of anger? 

I also don't recall Ned ever thinking Lyanna was a lovesick romantic. She's not described as a silly girl like young Sansa - willful, yes, but not filled with romantic ideas. No, Ned reserves his hatred and mistrust for Tywin Lannister, the "pit viper" - and not just for his treachery in how he went about securing Kings Landing and Jaime's execution of Aerys, but for things I suspect Tywin did, like plot Lyanna's abduction and disguising the men who did it as Rhaegar and his men.

I am also suspicious of Robert's hatred of Daenerys. Why was he so threatened by her existence? If his conquest of the throne was honorable and just, he shouldn't have worried about letting her live. I think his actions look suspicious. If it ever became known that Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna, then his righteousness in taking the throne by conquest would have looked invalid. Not only was that a threat to Robert, it's a threat to the Lannisters, and possibly one of the reasons why Cersei kept Sansa prisoner, and why Tywin married her to Tyrion - even after Ned and Robb were already dead.

There are a lot of details of the Rebellion that GRRM has left out, specifically the glaring lack of information about where Jon Arryn went after he married Lysa Tully. Only Hoster and Ned are credited with leading men down on Stoney Sept, and how did all the troops find their way north of the Trident? So what was Jon Arryn doing up until then?

One of the men that intrigues me the most is Sumner Crakehall whose sigil is a boar. He's noted as dying sometime in 283 during the Rebellion, but the only detail to support that is that his heir Roland Crakehill led their house during the Sack. I feel the boar sigil is important, because Robert's deathbed scene caused Ned to recall the circumstances of Lyanna's deathbed: 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

The Red Keep was dark and still as Cayn and Tomard escorted him across the inner bailey. The moon hung low over the walls, ripening toward full. On the ramparts, a guardsman in a gold cloak walked his rounds.

The royal apartments were in Maegor's Holdfast, a massive square fortress that nestled in the heart of the Red Keep behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat lined with iron spikes, a castle-within-a-castle. Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan's face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong. The royal steward opened the door. "Lord Eddard Stark, the Hand of the King," he announced.

"Bring him here," Robert's voice called, strangely thick.

Fires blazed in the twin hearths at either end of the bedchamber, filling the room with a sullen red glare. The heat within was suffocating. Robert lay across the canopied bed. At the bedside hovered Grand Maester Pycelle, while Lord Renly paced restlessly before the shuttered windows. Servants moved back and forth, feeding logs to the fire and boiling wine. Cersei Lannister sat on the edge of the bed beside her husband. Her hair was tousled, as if from sleep, but there was nothing sleepy in her eyes. They followed Ned as Tomard and Cayn helped him cross the room. He seemed to move very slowly, as if he were still dreaming.

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert's feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him. A green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death.

"Ned," the king whispered when he saw him. His face was pale as milk. "Come … closer."

His men brought him close. Ned steadied himself with a hand on the bedpost. He had only to look down at Robert to know how bad it was. "What …?" he began, his throat clenched.

"A boar." Lord Renly was still in his hunting greens, his cloak spattered with blood.

"A devil," the king husked. "My own fault. Too much wine, damn me to hell. Missed my thrust."

 

I believe this is a repeat of how Ned found Lyanna, her gut slashed open by a "boar" fighting Sumner Crakehall - her own fault, and she missed her thrust. This is the main reason why Ned wanted Arya to take sword lessons. Arya was so like her aunt Lyanna, so he wanted to prepare her to fight for her life.

 

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, alienarea said:

Also, because if Robert had been the one to abduct a woman he desired, he would have raped her for sure. In his mind that is the point of abducting a woman: to rape her. No, he does not need proof.

I don't agree with this sentiment.  There isn't any support that Robert was a mad rapist or rapist wannabe back at the time of Lyanna's abduction.  I highly doubt that Ned who basically grew up with Robert would have been such close friends with Robert if that had been the case.  

Robert liked to drink and he liked to engage in premarital sex.  A trait that many of the young entitled lords or lords to be probably shared with Robert.  Heck, we are told that Brandon shared many of these traits with Robert.  It doesn't make Robert a rapist or someone who had an urge to kidnap or rape women against their wishes.

It shouldn't be forgotten that when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, Robert held his temper (unlike Brandon).  And it wasn't Robert that rode off half-cocked to King's Landing when Lyanna disappeared.  

But Robert came to believe, and very strongly believe, sometime prior to the Battle of the Trident that Rhaegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times.  Robert tells Ned that he vowed to kill Rhaegar for what Rhaegar did to her.  It would have been simpler for Robert (and the author) for him to simply tell Ned that he vowed to kill Rhaegar for stealing or taking Lyanna.  It seems Robert found something else out before the Trident to lead him to the inevitable conclusion that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sexual relations.  

While the abduction itself is probably sufficient motivation for Robert to want to kill Rhaegar, I don't think it would be sufficient for Robert to be so happy with the murder of Rhaegar's children.  Yet when he justifies their murder to Ned he justifies it because of the murder of Brandon, and Rickard, and the rape of Lyanna.   

In Robert's mind he certainly at the time could have held out hope that Lyanna refused Rhaegar's advances and she was simply being held against her will.  After all, there is no real reason to believe that any in the realm thought of Rhaegar as a brute or a rapist.  Just like there is no reason to believe at the time of the Trident that Robert and Ned had just given Lyanna up for dead.

ETA: and there is some textual support that Robert had not given Lyanna up for dead at the time of the Battle for the Trident:

Quote

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king.  Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

”That did not bring her back.”  Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned.  It was a hollow victory they gave me.  A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for.  Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

Robert seemed to be still holding out hope that he could get Lyanna back both safe and perhaps just as importantly to Robert, his again as she was meant to be.  I think that Robert found out something before the Trident that would forever prevent Lyanna from being his and his alone.  And if it wasn’t her death, than my guess it was the fact that she was pregnant with another man’s child.

 

No, I think the inevitable conclusion is that Lyanna was found and found to be pregnant or had recently been pregnant and her pregnancy ultimately led to her early demise.  After all there doesn't appear to be any great question among anyone as to how Lyanna died.  Robert evidently blames Rhaegar for the death of Lyanna and he believes that Rhaegar's rape of Lyanna led to her death.  Once again even Robert can put two and two together.  Rape leads to pregnancy and pregnancy often leads to the death of young women in Westeros.

I'm sure when told about the story of their Aunt Lyanna, the children must have asked how their Aunt died.  To which the apparent answer to the children was because Rhaegar raped her, leaving the rest unsaid.  

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

I'm sure when told about the story of their Aunt Lyanna, the children must have asked how their Aunt died.  To which the apparent answer to the children was because Rhaegar raped her, leaving the rest unsaid.  

I believe this is one of Ned’s lies. If Lyanna wished to protect the legitimacy of Robert’s - and Ned’s too - conquest, then Ned would need to fabricate a lie for how she died, AND It had to be one which would fit the assumed narrative that Rhaegar kidnapped her.