Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[Lady Dyanna]

You make some interesting points @Melifeather    Need to put more thought into this idea. As much as GRRM highlights the ways in which the women are treated poorly, he also shows us examples of some very strong and powerful women that are fighting that status quo. Melisandre, Cersei, Dany, Asha, Osha, Ygritte, Caitlyn, Arya, Ariana and the Sand Snakes, even Sansa is starting to get in on it. Plus we have Lyanna and her death looming over everything, in a way even more so than Rhaegar. Not to mention that the Night’s Queen was said to be the downfall of her King. 

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Possibly. I’m thinking it might be similar to the difference between partly cloudy and partly sunny. 

Got it. :P

[Melifeather]

On 7/20/2020 at 7:36 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

the Night’s Queen was said to be the downfall of her King. 

Maybe this story is a classic example of blaming “Eve” for “Adam’s” fall? Women are frequently the “whore” or “bitch” when men aren’t willing to accept responsibility for their own mistakes and shortcomings. The mischaracterization of Mary Magdeline comes to mind...

[Lady Dyanna]

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe this story is a classic example of blaming “Eve” for “Adam’s” fall? Women are frequently the “whore” or “bitch” when men aren’t willing to accept responsibility for their own mistakes and shortcomings. The mischaracterization of Mary Magdeline comes to mind...

As does the abduction of Aerys in Duskendale. The foreign wife, Serala, of the Lord was the one who was blamed and recieved the most severe punishment. I believe that I have seen several comparisons between her and the Nights Queen in the past. 

[alienarea]

39 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe this story is a classic example of blaming “Eve” for “Adam’s” fall? Women are frequently the “whore” or “bitch” when men aren’t willing to accept responsibility for their own mistakes and shortcomings. The mischaracterization of Mary Magdeline comes to mind...

That fits well with your view that the wildlings are the others.

Basically, Ygritte and Jon Snow are  retelling the Night King's story.

Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna doesn't fit into this, but I never liked it anyway.

[Lady Dyanna]

There’s a lot of talk with dualities in this series. But in reality not only is duality present, theres almost an third underlining component present. It’s difficult to put into words, but we see it with Trios. You have the heads of death and rebirth. And another head in the middle. Is it there for the passage of time between two points in time? Life and/or afterlife? Death and birth being two forced at opposite ends of the spectrum... Is there a third choice somewhere in the middle. And is the same true with both ice and fire?  To me yes. Human life can’t be sustainable at either end of the spectrum but needs to be maintained somewhere in the middle. Water, Air, wood/earth... all of these things exist in multiple states, fire and ice being the most extreme of them. Yet they still exist when not in those extreme states. I just wonder if we aren’t looking at the same type of trinity with the wildings and their “otherization.” If that’s the case it seems that the wildings being the Others might actually be a misdirect the way that we’re told. But I also think that doesn’t rule out the possibility of their involvement in their return. 

We see the same trinity with the protagonists in our story. There are three heads. Dany for Fire. Jon for ice and Bran for the trees. We even have an example of Otherization for all of the elements. See the Squishers, Stone Men, etc. It feels like there’s a common thread in there  somewhere, but it keeps eluding me. 
 

ETA: What bothers me with this train of thought is that to me, Bran is the one that shows Night King imagery. His coma dream is actually nearly an echo of the story of the Nights King. If you compare the two, all of the same major elements are present in both tales. I know others have posited before that Bran the Builder and the Nights King were one in the same. I think that Symeon Star Eyes might need to be part of this mix as well. There is plenty linking him to Bran as well. Symeon fought with the hounds of hell, but who was he fighting for? 

[alienarea]

On 7/22/2020 at 9:34 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

There’s a lot of talk with dualities in this series. But in reality not only is duality present, theres almost an third underlining component present. It’s difficult to put into words, but we see it with Trios. You have the heads of death and rebirth. And another head in the middle. Is it there for the passage of time between two points in time? Life and/or afterlife? Death and birth being two forced at opposite ends of the spectrum... Is there a third choice somewhere in the middle. And is the same true with both ice and fire?  To me yes. Human life can’t be sustainable at either end of the spectrum but needs to be maintained somewhere in the middle. Water, Air, wood/earth... all of these things exist in multiple states, fire and ice being the most extreme of them. Yet they still exist when not in those extreme states. I just wonder if we aren’t looking at the same type of trinity with the wildings and their “otherization.” If that’s the case it seems that the wildings being the Others might actually be a misdirect the way that we’re told. But I also think that doesn’t rule out the possibility of their involvement in their return. 

We see the same trinity with the protagonists in our story. There are three heads. Dany for Fire. Jon for ice and Bran for the trees. We even have an example of Otherization for all of the elements. See the Squishers, Stone Men, etc. It feels like there’s a common thread in there  somewhere, but it keeps eluding me. 
 

ETA: What bothers me with this train of thought is that to me, Bran is the one that shows Night King imagery. His coma dream is actually nearly an echo of the story of the Nights King. If you compare the two, all of the same major elements are present in both tales. I know others have posited before that Bran the Builder and the Nights King were one in the same. I think that Symeon Star Eyes might need to be part of this mix as well. There is plenty linking him to Bran as well. Symeon fought with the hounds of hell, but who was he fighting for? 

What has irritated me for a long time is that things are not as I expected them to be regarding Bran and Jon. It would make more sense if Ghost (belonging to the old gods) were Bran's wolf, or Jon had become the three-eyed raven. Firstborn Stark's tend to die prematurely, and Brandon getting executed in KL makes Ned Lord of Winterfell, his firstborn Robb getting murdered makes another Brandon Lord of Winterfell. It seems to be as out-of-synch as the seasons - a connection?

Maybe the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is the root cause?

[Lady Dyanna]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:37 PM, alienarea said:

What has irritated me for a long time is that things are not as I expected them to be regarding Bran and Jon. It would make more sense if Ghost (belonging to the old gods) were Bran's wolf, or Jon had become the three-eyed raven. Firstborn Stark's tend to die prematurely, and Brandon getting executed in KL makes Ned Lord of Winterfell, his firstborn Robb getting murdered makes another Brandon Lord of Winterfell. It seems to be as out-of-synch as the seasons - a connection?

Maybe the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is the root cause?

I’ve thought the same thing regarding the direwolves. In fact IIRC @wolfmaid7 argued the same thing. And we see the foil to Ghost with his white fur and red eyes in Shaggy Dog too. All black with green eyes. Just seems like that should be indicative of something. Especially after Leaf explaining the connection to red or green eyes with the CotF.

But here’s the thing... Is Bran still truly alive or after his accident or is he actually in some limbic state. A long time ago I read an essay that focused on how Bran offered the 3EC kernels of corn. The author likened Bran doing this to him offering up his soul. Which coincidentally is exactly what the Night’s King does for his queen... gives her his soul, binding himself to her. Another interesting detail is that as Bran wakes the 3EC shifts to being a woman.  I’m reluctant to it depend so heavily on symbolism, but it feels like there’s something there.

As for the rest....The only problem I have with tying in the “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” Idea is because for a long time there always was one. Bran and Rickon were still there. It is only after they leave that it changes. 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

gives her his soul, binding himself to her. Another interesting detail is that as Bran wakes the 3EC shifts to being a woman.

Not just any woman though. A specific, known, live, real woman who was actually there in the room. 

The woman was never the crow, the crow was never the woman. Its merely the dream/coma/vision state vs the reality state.

It the crow had turned into an unknown woman within the dream, that would have significance I expect. I don't think you can assign the same significance within the simple change of mind states. 
No more than you can, say, of Lyanna turning into Vayon Poole in Ned's dream/awaking mix.

[Melifeather]

Sophie Turner’s new daughter is named Willa. Too bad she didn’t spell it Wylla.

[Melifeather]

On 7/26/2020 at 1:37 PM, alienarea said:

What has irritated me for a long time is that things are not as I expected them to be regarding Bran and Jon. It would make more sense if Ghost (belonging to the old gods) were Bran's wolf, or Jon had become the three-eyed raven. Firstborn Stark's tend to die prematurely, and Brandon getting executed in KL makes Ned Lord of Winterfell, his firstborn Robb getting murdered makes another Brandon Lord of Winterfell. It seems to be as out-of-synch as the seasons - a connection?

Maybe the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is the root cause?

Yes, this does seem to be contradictory, but perhaps it is an indication that there IS a type of wheel of time at play? I've proposed before that every generation has a "Brandon". Once one Brandon dies another one is born, thus resetting the wheel. This is similar to how Dr Strange defeated Dormammu, which I believe the "Others" are based upon. Every time Dormammu killed Dr Strange, it reset the time loop that Dr Strange had locked in place using the Eye of Agamotto. In my opinion the Wall (in conjunction with the weirwoods) are this story's Eye of Agamotto. Bloodraven is the Sorcerer Supreme who "sees" the past, present, and future through the "eyes" of the weirwood trees, but its the Wall that has locked time into a continual loop. The extended seasons are an indication that "time" isn't confined to the movements of the planet nor of the humans that inhabit it. "Time" is actually specific historical events with "mummers" playing designated roles. 

Bran is playing the role of Brandon, while Jon is playing the role of both the Bastard O'Winterfell and the Nights King, which the story has informed us was a brother to the Lord of Winterfell. We might not have been informed of all the details regarding that ancient historical event, but perhaps it was similar to what has more recently occurred? Ned and Robb Stark are dead and Ramsay Bolton assumed the position of Lord of Winterfell. Ramsay and Jon are bastard-brothers related by the name "Snow". How do we not know that this is what happened thousands of years ago? 

[Lady Dyanna]

20 hours ago, corbon said:

Not just any woman though. A specific, known, live, real woman who was actually there in the room. 

The woman was never the crow, the crow was never the woman. Its merely the dream/coma/vision state vs the reality state.

It the crow had turned into an unknown woman within the dream, that would have significance I expect. I don't think you can assign the same significance within the simple change of mind states. 
No more than you can, say, of Lyanna turning into Vayon Poole in Ned's dream/awaking mix.

You may very well be correct. I tend to dislike relying so heavily on symbolism. But what I can’t dismiss are the similarities I see in between Bran’s Coma Dream and the tale of the Nights King. They both hit all the same key notes. It’s symbolic in Bran’s dreams. But dreams are that way. I mean in essence I’m comparing a dream to a bedtime story. 

[alienarea]

Off topic, but hey, they thread is named Alienarea strikes again ;)

You maybe remember I create some music now and then, and since I wasn't allowed to travel during my vacation beginning of June, I created a video, too:

https://youtu.be/P36D3DbEjU0

 

[Black Crow]

I wonder whether [like so much else] the injunction that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell isn't being interpreted too literally - even by some of those involved.

Consider, there are no Starks furth of Winterfell, yet the generations are replete with siblings. Other than the dead only Benjen escaped and then only to the living death of the Wall. The family is cursed and seemingly that curse is tied to Winterfell, the Wall and the Old Gods.

[wiwerse]

Hey everyone.

Pretty new to this, but I recently followed a train of thought that seems to be mostly untraveled. 

So most of us are aware of Fire and Ice, by Robert Frost, and I coupled that with Mr. Martins fondness for duality and paradoxes. The poem speaks of dying twice, once by fire, once by ice, in that order. this seems to be an inversion of Jons Presumed Road, in that he dies once to ice (at the wall) and will die once by fire(dragonfire?). Regardless, I got the idea to look into some other poems by Robert Frost. The first i checked was To The Thawing Wind, due to the similarity to Jons comment to Arya in AGOT. Lo and Behold, to me it speaks of Arya, pretty heavily, or rather Arya was based on it. 

Quote

Come with rain, O loud Southwester!

Bring the singer, bring the nester;

Give the buried flower a dream;

Make the settled snowbank steam;

Find the brown beneath the white;

But whate’er you do tonight,

Bathe my window, make it flow,

Melt it as the ice will go;

Melt the glass and leave the sticks

Like a hermit’s crucifix;

Burst into my narrow stall;

Swing the picture on the wall;

Run the rattling pages o’er;

Scatter poems on the floor;

Turn the poet out of door.

To me this symbolizes Arya, in that she does not conform to other expectations, like a new wind, she rushes in, changes things and stays with you a while before leaving. F.E. Gendry, Harrenhal etc.etc.

I haven't read many more, but to me several of them seems to fit pretty well together with ASOIAF characters

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I wonder whether [like so much else] the injunction that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell isn't being interpreted too literally - even by some of those involved.

Consider, there are no Starks furth of Winterfell, yet the generations are replete with siblings. Other than the dead only Benjen escaped and then only to the living death of the Wall. The family is cursed and seemingly that curse is tied to Winterfell, the Wall and the Old Gods.

Yes there are sibling Starks, but none of them are currently living at Winterfell. Robb Stark was defeated even while Bran still held Winterfell, and likewise Ned was beheaded while Robb held Winterfell. They were keeping a Stark in Winterfell and yet they both died. Theon took Winterfell away from Bran who in turn escaped from Winterfell and lived. Arya escaped from capture while Sansa only escaped the Lannisters. She's yet to escape from LIttlefinger. Rickon escaped with Osha. Winterfell is notably absent of Starks other than dead ones, but the family yet lives. Are you suggesting that the Old Gods have been trying to rid Winterfell of Starks?

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, wiwerse said:

Come with rain, O loud Southwester!

Bring the singer, bring the nester;

Give the buried flower a dream;

Make the settled snowbank steam;

Find the brown beneath the white;

But whate’er you do tonight,

Bathe my window, make it flow,

Melt it as the ice will go;

Melt the glass and leave the sticks

Like a hermit’s crucifix;

Burst into my narrow stall;

Swing the picture on the wall;

Run the rattling pages o’er;

Scatter poems on the floor;

Turn the poet out of door.

Hello,  this actually makes me think of Bran or a Dream of Spring.  "The Hermit's Crucifix" or Bran crucified on his tree, alone an 'old man'.  It describes the return of spring,  the rain melting the snow,  water on the window of glass or ice, melting, the return of the birds (singers, nesters).  The southwestern wind bursting into the cave scattering the poem (song) around the floor.

[wiwerse]

@LynnS True, it might have more to do with the title that made me think of Arya, but now that you mention it, most certainly agree. I'll continue to look through the poems, to see if any appear relevant

[wiwerse]

Quote

A saturated meadow, Sun-shaped and jewel-small, A circle scarcely wider Than the trees around were tall; Where winds were quite excluded, And the air was stifling sweet With the breath of many flowers-- A temple of the heat.

There we bowed us in the burning, As the sun's right worship is, To pick where none could miss them A thousand orchises; For though the grass was scattered, Yet ever second spear Seemed tipped with wings of color That tinged the atmosphere.

We raised a simple prayer Before we left the spot, That in the general mowing That place might be forgot; Or if not all so favored, Obtain such grace of hours That none should mow the grass there While so confused with flowers.

This seems to seems to invoke, if not Arianne, then another Martell, what with the imagery of of "Sun-shaped" and " second spear", the "second" part might mean a second son, or second child, or someone who's been passed over for someone else, similar to how Arianne thought she was passed over for Qyentyn. "A temple of the heat", maybe the watergardens? It might also have to do with the tyrells, or another flower-house, but to me the Martell imagery seems significant

[wiwerse]

Quote

Thine emulous fond flowers are dead, too, And the daft sun-assaulter, he That frighted thee so oft, is fled or dead: Save only me (Nor is it sad to thee!) Save only me There is none left to mourn thee in the fields.

The gray grass is not dappled with the snow; Its two banks have not shut upon the river; But it is long ago-- It seems forever-- Since first I saw thee glance, With all the dazzling other ones, In airy dalliance, Precipitate in love, Tossed, tangled, whirled and whirled above, Like a limp rose-wreath in a fairy dance.

When that was, the soft mist Of my regret hung not on all the land, And I was glad for thee, And glad for me, I wist.

Thou didst not know, who tottered, wandering on high, That fate had made thee for the pleasure of the wind, With those great careless wings, Nor yet did I.

And there were other things: It seemed God let thee flutter from his gentle clasp: Then fearful he had let thee win Too far beyond him to be gathered in, Snatched thee, o'er eager, with ungentle grasp.

Ah! I remember me How once conspiracy was rife Against my life-- The languor of it and the dreaming fond; Surging, the grasses dizzied me of thought, The breeze three odors brought, And a gem-flower waved in a wand!

Then when I was distraught And could not speak, Sidelong, full on my cheek, What should that reckless zephyr fling But the wild touch of thy dye-dusty wing!

I found that wing broken to-day! For thou are dead, I said, And the strange birds say. I found it with the withered leaves Under the eaves

My Butterfly

To me, this speaks of the entire series, of how  "How once conspiracy was rife" Of how winter comes, and the Game is halted, it also makes subtle mentions of magic with the line "And a gem-flower waved in a wand!" , but overall it speaks more of sorrow and loss, of the sad and dark part of life

 

Since I didn't mention it, the poem in my last post was Rose Pogonias, also by robert frost. I might be entirely wrong though, if you feel like it feel free to tell me so