Anime II: Back to Zero

[sifth]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:28 AM, Ran said:

I remarked when I finished One Piece, the live action, that it seemed nuts that the amount they spent on just one season could have funded 70 seasons of animes...

And then they went, well, actually:

So they're doing their own, brand new One Piece anime with Wit Studio (Attack on Titan, Ranking of Kings, Spy x Family). Clearly, the numbers on the live action were so good that they've decided they want a bigger piece of the One Piece gravy train.

This one confuses me, but I assumed it will be like DBZ Kai and simply be One Piece with no filler. The anime also does make a few small changes from the manga, mostly done to tone things down for children, like what happens to Zeff's leg is very different in the original anime, than what happens in the manga and live action show.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Just finished Blue Eye Samurai and I really enjoyed it. There were some plot threads that didn’t sit quite so well with me, but I think that they may make more sense once the story is told in full. The funny thing is, I don’t particularly like violence, so I ended up just tuning it out/looking away during the gorier scenes and focusing on the story.

I have so many thoughts!

 

Spoiler

I’ve noticed that many people were disappointed by the final episode. I liked it, although there were a few pieces that felt rushed. As nice as it was for Taigen to decide he’d rather be happy than great, I don’t think this revelation was built up very well. He was concerned with honor and glory right up until that scene. If anything, I think that seeing the city go up in flames would only have made him want to fight more.

Akemi’s arc also didn’t quite work for me, and I’m having a hard time putting my finger on why. One reason may be that it wasn’t really much of an arc at all: despite framing her lessons from the madam as Akemi learning to control men through sex, she was already doing that back in the second episode. The only difference is that Taigen was slightly more headstrong than the others, so he didn’t bend to her will as easily. I never really felt a connection to their love story, but I think that was intentional—much like the lack of emotion between Mizu and her “mother”—and it was an interesting twist on the love triangle to have it end the way it did (although I doubt it’s completely over).

I thought the sex scenes were mostly tasteful. Believe it or not, the one I found most cringe was the one with Ringo in the premiere, because it reminded me of all the weeaboo porn targeted at teenage boys lol. Similarly, I didn’t find the madam’s moralizing terribly consistent, but again, this might be the product of an unfinished story.

Mizu is heading to England during a very interesting time—Cromwell was in power in 1657—but I’m a bit bummed because I liked seeing her interact with the other main characters in Japan. Hopefully she’ll return before the end of season 2. 

Mizu handing over Akemi was framed as this major betrayal, but what I saw was someone who was battered and bruised after taking on an entire goddamn army. She didn’t have the strength to do it a second time in one day.

Also. . . does anyone else have a hard time believing that no one other than Fowler ever guessed that she was female? Her voice was very clearly a woman’s, no matter how much she tried to disguise it.

There’s a really interesting theory online that Mizu’s mother was her white parent, which I think would be a pretty great twist. Either was, I suspect that she won’t be able to kill her white relative once she finally finds them. Like all good revenge stories, she needs to find her way back to her humanity at the end. It wouldn’t surprise me if she eventually has her own blue eye daughter. 

And fun fact: the guy who voiced the Shogun played Mr. Wu on Deadwood!

 

Edited January 9 by The Bard of Banefort

[Ran]

Spoiler

Quote

Also. . . does anyone else have a hard time believing that no one other than Fowler ever guessed that she was female? Her voice was very clearly a woman’s, no matter how much she tried to disguise it.

That part didn't bother me, just using the trope of the idea that if someone presents male, they have a very hard time, culturally, seeing them as anything but. 

Although, that said, I would have liked it if the brothel madame also saw through it, just for other, also-tropey, reasons.

Did not realize Keone Young was the Shogun. Very cool.

 

 

[sifth]

Since it's a popular topic, I too have seen Blue Eyed Samurai, over the recent Holiday season. It's a very good show. Not sure if it counts as anime, despite taking place in Japan, during the isolation period, but much like Avatar the Last Airbender and Castlevania, I suppose it falls into the "close enough" category, lol
 

Spoiler

I really did enjoy this show and watching it, along with Godzilla Minus One, were the highlights of my Holiday break. For all you saying "Mizu doesn't sound like a man", should hear my voice. I clear as hell don't sound like the gender I was born with. So I could relate to that aspect of the character somewhat more than others, I think.

 

Edited January 10 by sifth

[Rippounet]

Edited to add a spoiler tag for Blue Eyed Samurai. @sifth, your message actually has a massive spoiler in it, dunno what the policy on this is (this is a spoiler-free thread I think).

Spoiler

Mizu being mistaken for a man wasn't problematic for me: she's half-European, so she's significantly taller and more muscular than most Japanese. She was also a smith's apprentice, so she'd have developed some extra body muscle.
As for her voice, it's not just that European females can have a lower-pitched voice, it's also that the Japanese language is extremely codified and gendered ; by that I mean that Japanese women are expected to use a higher-pitched voice with specific -rising- intonations and even -to some extent- specific grammatical words/suffixes. Don't even get me started about body language/posture or gait, especially in that century...
So yeah, oddly enough, I'd say Mizu passing for a man is in fact rather credible.

 

Edited January 10 by Rippounet

[Ran]

@Rippounet

Spoiler

33 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

As for her voice, it's not just that European females can have a lower-pitched voice, it's also that the Japanese language is extremely codified and gendered

I didn't think of that, but it makes me wonder if they actually followed through and had her lines in the Japanese audio with male gendered speech. It would make sense, if she's deliberately trying to pass herself as a man.

ETA: Decided to check, and I'm no expert, but the speech pattern sounds totally male there too. Makes perfect sense that they would do that. Wonder if anyone's spoken with the script's Japanese translator about that aspect of things?

 

Edited January 10 by Ran

[Rippounet]

Spoiler

Gender-bending is a common trope in manga/anime at least, so even if the writers didn't know about the linguistic aspect, someone surely told them about it at some point during the process. Even in the English version, it's clear that Mizu's voice actress (Erskine) uses male intonations throughout (low-pitched, flat/falling, assertive).
Though the more relevant bit, imho, would be to see how Akemi talks in the Japanese version, because as a high-born lady, she would definitely have to use all the female codes, at least in public, and her Japanese might even be particularly elegant/pleasant (It's said that high-born ladies and geishas use a "literary" kind of Japanese that only the Japanese can fully understand and appreciate).
The contrast between Mizu's and Akemi's speech patterns would easily establish how Mizu can fool people.
Also, the fact that Mizu grew up playing with boys no doubt influenced her talking habits, whereas the village girls would have been educated to talk... well, as girls.
Ah, also, it's possible that in the episode in which she gets married, Mizu has a higher-pitched voice with less falling intonations... can't remember for sure, but it's the kind of detail that may have been used to make her more feminine.

 

Edited January 10 by Rippounet

[Ran]

Spoiler

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Though the more relevant bit, imho, would be to see how Akemi talks in the Japanese version, because as a high-born lady, she would definitely have to use all the female codes, at least in public, and her Japanese might even be particularly elegant/pleasant (It's said that high-born ladies and geishas use a "literary" kind of Japanese that only the Japanese can fully understand and appreciate).

That's actually how I decided they were doing it, by the brothel scene when Akemi and Mizu talk to one another. Besides Mizu speaking in a lower register, as the actress does in English, the whole tonal pattern seems different.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

52 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

  Hide contents

Gender-bending is a common trope in manga/anime at least, so even if the writers didn't know about the linguistic aspect, someone surely told them about it at some point during the process. Even in the English version, it's clear that Mizu's voice actress (Erskine) uses male intonations throughout (low-pitched, flat/falling, assertive).
Though the more relevant bit, imho, would be to see how Akemi talks in the Japanese version, because as a high-born lady, she would definitely have to use all the female codes, at least in public, and her Japanese might even be particularly elegant/pleasant (It's said that high-born ladies and geishas use a "literary" kind of Japanese that only the Japanese can fully understand and appreciate).
The contrast between Mizu's and Akemi's speech patterns would easily establish how Mizu can fool people.
Also, the fact that Mizu grew up playing with boys no doubt influenced her talking habits, whereas the village girls would have been educated to talk... well, as girls.
Ah, also, it's possible that in the episode in which she gets married, Mizu has a higher-pitched voice with less falling intonations... can't remember for sure, but it's the kind of detail that may have been used to make her more feminine.

 

Spoiler

I recently went back and checked and, yes, Mizu reverted to her natural voice when she was married to Mikio. It’s not a huge difference though. 

I also found it odd that MK wasn’t able to deduce Mizu’s secret, especially since Mizu figured out pretty quickly that MK was making a sales pitch tailored to men—which was reaffirmed by how bluntly she spoke to the women about working at the brothel. (I read an interview where the showrunners said that Akemi realized upon visiting the brothel that the prostitutes had more freedom than her, but I don’t think that’s what BES conveyed—if anything, we’re shown pretty clearly that the girls are sold into the brothel and then have to do whatever MK tells them to).

And now, because this is an ASOIAF board, time for parallels!

I’ve seen Mizu compared to Arya and Akemi compared to Sansa, but I think that’s an oversimplification. If anything, Mizu reminded me more of Brienne, who’s a talented warrior but in some respects didn’t have any better options due to circumstances that were beyond her control. They both have that same kind of wounded, hidden vulnerability too.

And for whatever reason, Taigen reminded me of Dunk on a visual-level. I think it’s because his hair and build are similar to how Dunk is depicted in the graphic novels.

 

[Ran]

Spoiler

 

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I recently went back and checked and, yes, Mizu reverted to her natural voice when she was married to Mikio. It’s not a huge difference though. 

That's also a good one, but I'd disagree on the difference. The moment when she's passing out and remembering the horse race with Mikio, she shouts. "Too fast! You're going too fast!"

In English, yes, she is speaking in a higher register and without the angst that she usually displays, but it's not a huge difference... but in Japanese the difference between her "Blue Eye Samurai" voice and her "married Mizo" voice is startlingly different. It's 100% feminine, not just in register, but also in the tonal quality. A male character would have ennunciated that phrase really distinctly differently.

As to Madame Kaji, yeah, would have been interesting if she saw through the disguise. As to the freedom of Akemi vs the freedom of the brothel girls... I think the thing is that Akemi's every waking moment was regulated, and her stealing what time she could with Taigen was not easy. These brothel girls, they sleep with whoever is sent their way, but otherwise their time seems to be their own. 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:25 PM, Ran said:

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That's also a good one, but I'd disagree on the difference. The moment when she's passing out and remembering the horse race with Mikio, she shouts. "Too fast! You're going too fast!"

In English, yes, she is speaking in a higher register and without the angst that she usually displays, but it's not a huge difference... but in Japanese the difference between her "Blue Eye Samurai" voice and her "married Mizo" voice is startlingly different. It's 100% feminine, not just in register, but also in the tonal quality. A male character would have ennunciated that phrase really distinctly differently.

As to Madame Kaji, yeah, would have been interesting if she saw through the disguise. As to the freedom of Akemi vs the freedom of the brothel girls... I think the thing is that Akemi's every waking moment was regulated, and her stealing what time she could with Taigen was not easy. These brothel girls, they sleep with whoever is sent their way, but otherwise their time seems to be their own. 

 

Spoiler

Eh I think Akemi just kind of fell flat for me. She was always the person she was by the end of episode 7, she just learned to like it (in part because Kaji told her to check her privilege lol). She only showed some new development in the finale, when  she decided she wanted to be great. [Side-note: That moment reminded me of Daenerys, with the fiery background and ominous music. I don’t think Akemi will go full-evil, but she’ll probably become more morally ambiguous.]

Maybe the problem is that I haven’t seen much anime, but I don’t know if we’re supposed to dig that deeply into the voice thing. Everyone aside from Fowler and George Takei speaks in an American accent* and most of the actors, while all of Asian descent, aren’t Japanese. I don’t think they expect the general audience to pick up on such specific cultural clues.

*Because of this, I was wondering what a character from the New World would sound like if one appears. I’m guessing they’d use a southern accent in that case, especially since some historians believe that many Brits spoke with that accent themselves during the colonial period, which is how it ended up in the American south.

Update: Just re-read your comment and realized that I misunderstood what you were saying. You were able to watch BES with the Japanese dubbing?

Edited January 13 by The Bard of Banefort

[The Bard of Banefort]

BES is a really easy show to re-watch, too, since it’s so short.

Spoiler

Interestingly, Mizu also briefly reverts to her natural voice when she says goodbye to Taigen (“We’re not done yet”/“I know”). Obviously there’s a lot of symbolic significance in that.

This might interest some of you. I have a relative who is an elementary school teacher, and he was telling me that many of his students are into anime/manga, particularly the girls. Anime was very much present when I was a kid* but it was still kind of a niche thing, and it mostly appealed to boys. It’s pretty neat to see how the cultural exchange continues to grow. 

* I did miss out on K-Pop though

[sifth]

20 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

BES is a really easy show to re-watch, too, since it’s so short.

  Hide contents

Interestingly, Mizu also briefly reverts to her natural voice when she says goodbye to Taigen (“We’re not done yet”/“I know”). Obviously there’s a lot of symbolic significance in that.

This might interest some of you. I have a relative who is an elementary school teacher, and he was telling me that many of his students are into anime/manga, particularly the girls. Anime was very much present when I was a kid* but it was still kind of a niche thing, and it mostly appealed to boys. It’s pretty neat to see how the cultural exchange continues to grow. 

* I did miss out on K-Pop though

Two of the teachers I work with like anime. So it's not just the kids, lol

[The Bard of Banefort]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

Two of the teachers I work with like anime. So it's not just the kids, lol

What I meant is that it’s spreading and becoming less niche.

[Toth]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This might interest some of you. I have a relative who is an elementary school teacher, and he was telling me that many of his students are into anime/manga, particularly the girls. Anime was very much present when I was a kid* but it was still kind of a niche thing, and it mostly appealed to boys. It’s pretty neat to see how the cultural exchange continues to grow. 

* I did miss out on K-Pop though

As a teacher myself, I... am noticing the same, but at the same time I can't but help but be annoyed that it happens at a time where everything's an Isekai now and particularly the boys latch onto this stuff because of the antiquated gender roles and it selling as power fantasies for a sexually frustrated audience. The girls in the meantime are clearly more into the K-Pop hype and cuteness of stuff... it's all just... so very stereotypical, imao.

Granted, on top of that I am also kinda annoyed when they ask me about whether I watch any as a way of hoping I'd answer and waste time, but that's with all weird personal questions. Don't really want to get put into a situation where I'm asked for recommendations, answer that and will regret that when it's used against me, eh.

[Rippounet]

Started The Apothecary Diaries on a whim, binge-watched all the episodes, moved on to the manga, read everything available up to and including the latest chapter, and am now dying for chapter 69 (!).
This story (light novel series/manga/anime) is everything The Story of Saiunkoku wasn't. It's detailed and clever, with a very good balance between the main plot and secondary intrigues, between mystery and comedy, or even between politics and romance. As a middle-aged dude, I'm certainly not the target audience and still got taken in. I guess reasons are:
- It's visually gorgeous, as are almost all animes these days. Still, the visual quality magnifies...
- ... a fascinating setting: the imperial palace of a fictional 18th century China (I've read 15th, but that wouldn't make sense). Except the political intrigue/plotting is centered on the 4 imperial consorts living in the "rear palace" (i.e. the harem) - so it's heavily female-centered - save for a few eunuchs. What impressed me was how detailed the lives of these women were.
- A succession of detective stories. The main character is a Sherlock Holmes-like character using her knowledge of medicine and plants (and lots of other things ^^) to solve minor mysteries around the imperial palace. Of course there's a few major mysteries to guess as well - though I'll daresay they're easy to solve for the viewer/reader.
- An intriguing tone. Though this is obviously a heavily patriarchal society and setting, the story shows how women can find power and happiness within the constraints of their respective positions (consorts, ladies-in-waiting, attendants, maidservants, courtesans... ). The protagonist herself is striking by her odd mix of submissiveness and rebeliousness.
- The protagonist is clearly autistic, and a number of other characters are divergent/different/disabled. While it's common to have characters who are socially or romantically clueless in manga/anime, MaoMao turns out to be clueless only when it comes to herself, and her character traits are a textbook definition of high-functioning autism.

The one thing I wonder about where this is going is whether at the very end MaoMao isn't...

Spoiler

... Empress.

 

[Proudfeet]

2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Started The Apothecary Diaries on a whim, binge-watched all the episodes, moved on to the manga, read everything available up to and including the latest chapter, and am now dying for chapter 69 (!).

Diaries? What's wrong with monologue or mumblings? 

Anyway, wanted to ask if you read both serialisations of the manga. It makes for an interesting comparison, with how the same story is portrayed differently with the same medium.

[Rippounet]

10 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

Diaries? What's wrong with monologue or mumblings? 

Anyway, wanted to ask if you read both serialisations of the manga. It makes for an interesting comparison, with how the same story is portrayed differently with the same medium.

I... uh... wouldn't know, I just went with the most popular/accessible  title and manga tbh. The "Diaries" version is the one that was chosen for France - the Monologue version started being released just a couple of months ago.

I found a reddit thread about the two versions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/manga/comments/mcv1jr/im_curious_about_the_difference_between_version/

So I can't answer your question, but as I understand it, the main change is pace?

[Proudfeet]

22 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I... uh... wouldn't know, I just went with the most popular/accessible  title and manga tbh. The "Diaries" version is the one that was chosen for France - the Monologue version started being released just a couple of months ago.

I found a reddit thread about the two versions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/manga/comments/mcv1jr/im_curious_about_the_difference_between_version/

So I can't answer your question, but as I understand it, the main change is pace?

Ah, that was more directed at the translation in general. Diaries is not that far off, but just feels overly localised. I guess having different titles makes it less confusing.

Pace is one thing, but what I found interesting was the contrast on how the same story can be presented slightly differently with the different emphasis on details or omissions or expressions.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Add me to the Blue Eye Samurai hype train. Also, a little late to the party but the AOT finale was a lot better than what I'd been led to expect.