Dresden Files spoilers for Peace Talks/Battle Ground

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

We’re full in the other thread.

continue no more spoiler captions.

PT/BG were, not good.

[C.T. Phipps]

These two book are easily the best since CHANGES and frankly probably much better taken together.

Loved every bit of it taken together.

Murphy's death genuinely took me by surprise. I thought she was going to be forced into retirement and become the Oracle of the Paranet organization. However, the fact that she was willing to continue fighting to the very end has me feeling like I should have seen it coming. If you walk with a cane and still going into battle, you're going to get a heroic death. Her defeat of the Frost Giant also gave me strong Resident Evil vibes but, sadly, Harry can't play video games so it would have been lost on him.

"TYRANT!"

I do think Rudolph killing Murphy is going to go down as one of the most important moments of the Dresden Files in terms of social relevance. It's a corrupt cop, an incompetent cop, and a brutal cop shooting a just cop because he's an idiot. With qualified immunity, what's going on in Chicago, and other matters--it seems that Rudolph will get away scott free. That's not even getting to the fact Murphy's body was taken off to Valhalla.

I'm inclined to wonder if the afterlives of the Dresdenfiles verse are linked now. Murphy was a Catholic and I can't imagine that she wouldn't get to see her dad again. Given Hades was holding onto the Spear of Destiny, placard, and other items I wouldn't be surprised if the gods of humanity are actually more of a Justice League than rival organizations. It could well be that they're all working together against the forces of Hell and Oblivion.

I do think that Murphy is never coming back in Harry's lifetime but I fully think she'll show in ghost form, visions, and as an alternate universe version.

I will note that Nemesis' "Apocalypse is a frame of mind" is a big clue that Nicodemus suckered Harry when he indicated that he wasn't the Denarian who attacked Arctis Tor. He's always playing games within games and I wouldn't be surprised if he's a hellspawn like Azrael in Dogma. He wants to UNMAKE creation rather than have the Devil win. As such, it'd be interesting if Thorned Namshiel is working with Marcone in order to make sure that the Earth stays around long enough to continue corrupting souls for Hell. It also would explain why Nicodemus got so badly punished by Mab.

I don't see Harry and Lara actually getting together as endgame but I do see it as a plotline that will be fun while exploring. Certainly, I'm still of the mind that Butter's lightsaber exists for the purposes of killing the Demon inside Thomas and freeing him of his White Court vampire status. I also believe Thomas is going to be a Knight of the Cross eventually. I also believe Lara would not reject her powers even as it would force her to make some hard choices with her brother/son.

[Gaston de Foix]

I'm waiting for Poobah's verdict. 

Surprisingly, there's plenty of criticism of the books over on Paranet as well. 

One explanation I saw for the conjuritis was that this is a set-up for Dresden to be able to shapeshift.  This seems like a very weak explanation.  It seems much more likely that Butcher agreed on a whim, bet or promise to include some form of magical disease in his next novel. 

And, stepping back, there's so much going on, so much of truly random (marrying Lara, wtf?) that it is difficult to grasp why it happened or where the story goes next. 

Lara has always been an unconvincing character as male wish-fulfillment from the start.  Can someone count the number of times she's found herself naked in Harry's presence?  

[C.T. Phipps]

4 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Lara has always been an unconvincing character as male wish-fulfillment from the start.  Can someone count the number of times she's found herself naked in Harry's presence?  

Strong, powerful, intelligent female leader and martial arts master as well as political genius are how I tend to think of her.

Mind you, I'm a sex positive feminist. As Murphy said, "More people should have it and less people ashamed of it."

[polishgenius]

Someone on another forum pointed out very pertinently that the 'until her memory fades' thing about Murphy referred to her returning to Earth as an Eijheinjar. It said nothing about her returning as a Valkyrie. Since I'd already been assuming Murph if she ever died was coming back as a Valkyrie, but wrote it off because I got the two things crossed in reading the end of this book, I'm now 100% sure that will happen before the end. It's also the workaround to the old wizard romance problem of their lovers aging while they do not and thus sets Murphy up even more strongly to be Harry's final and true love interest.

[C.T. Phipps]

8 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Someone on another forum pointed out very pertinently that the 'until her memory fades' thing about Murphy referred to her returning to Earth as an Eijheinjar. It said nothing about her returning as a Valkyrie. Since I'd already been assuming Murph if she ever died was coming back as a Valkyrie, but wrote it off because I got the two things crossed in reading the end of this book, I'm now 100% sure that will happen before the end. It's also the workaround to the old wizard romance problem of their lovers aging while they do not and thus sets Murphy up even more strongly to be Harry's final and true love interest.

I think that Jim is trying to tell his readers that Prime Murphy is dead. I fully can see Ghost Murphy showing up and Alternate Murphy.

However, Prime Murphy is gone.

I think that's a good decision for the series.

[AverageGuy]

9 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Lara has always been an unconvincing character as male wish-fulfillment from the start.  

Yep. I'd say to be fair, she is a succubus, but then again Butcher writes a lot of his women as objects of lust (of course Ivy was wearing a school-girl uniform during the battle). It's a result of his leaning on a few character traits schtick, so it pops up a lot with his women. That tendency is also why his attempts to show diversity in the Council ends up with a Native American medicine man, a black matriarch, and a Chinese dragon lady.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think the interesting part of Jim Butcher's part is the fact that his female characters are both objects of lust by Jim but developed three-dimensional characters in their own right.

Just not very good at a variety BEYOND dangerous femme fatales.

Murphy being the best exception and even she got in a relationship with Harry.

[Gaston de Foix]

Murphy came across as a real, three-dimensional person.  Lara does not.

Another question from Battle Ground.  Is Cristos dead?

[C.T. Phipps]

5 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Murphy came across as a real, three-dimensional person.  Lara does not.

Yes, there are still mysteries to explore with Lara who is always on guard and often objectively hostile to Harry.

Like Mab, we have to peel back the layers to see the person underneath.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yes, there are still mysteries to explore with Lara who is always on guard and often objectively hostile to Harry.

Like Mab, we have to peel back the layers to see the person underneath.

Lara... sees... humans... as... food.

Where is there to go with that?

[C.T. Phipps]

31 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Lara... sees... humans... as... food.

Where is there to go with that?

I dunno, the fact she apparently raised Thomas and is the reason that he's not a homicidal sociopath?

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I dunno, the fact she apparently raised Thomas and is the reason that he's not a homicidal sociopath?

 

She... allowed... him... to... become... a... monster... who... eats... people.

He fights that.  Lara could have prevented that, but didn’t... because she sees humans as food.  

Lara is a well dressed, beautiful, well mannered monster.  She came up with the scheme to kill weak practitioners.  That’s on her and why she is on Harry’s “lesser evil punch list”.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

She... allowed... him... to... become... a... monster... who... eats... people.

He fights that.  Lara could have prevented that, but didn’t... because she sees humans as food.  

Lara is a well dressed, beautiful, well mannered monster.  She came up with the scheme to kill weak practitioners.  That’s on her and why she is on Harry’s “lesser evil punch list”.

One who is part of the secret society that protects the world from the forces of the Outsiders by eliminating all references to beings like Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth. Lara is the one who inducted Thomas into the True Venatori for example. The fact she kills humans is part of what makes her an interesting complicated character because she spent decades trying to live up to her Complete Monster (see TV tropes) rapist father's ideals while being drawn another way through her love of Thomas. Redemption is a powerful theme in the Dresden Files as is "how far is too far gone?" Lara fits in with Marcone, Mab, Thomas, and Harry himself to see if she can be someone more good than evil but who has still done terrible things. It's, indeed, the entire purpose of the Knights of the Cross to redeem the Denarians not kill them.

And if you want to say, SHE EATS PEOPLE again then I should admit I'm a huge vampire fiction fan. My favorite urban fantasy heroes eat people and often have innocent blood on their hands.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

One who is part of the secret society that protects the world from the forces of the Outsiders by eliminating all references to beings like Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth. Lara is the one who inducted Thomas into the True Venatori for example. The fact she kills humans is part of what makes her an interesting complicated character because she spent decades trying to live up to her Complete Monster (see TV tropes) rapist father's ideals while being drawn another way through her love of Thomas. Redemption is a powerful theme in the Dresden Files as is "how far is too far gone?" Lara fits in with Marcone, Mab, Thomas, and Harry himself to see if she can be someone more good than evil but who has still done terrible things. It's, indeed, the entire purpose of the Knights of the Cross to redeem the Denarians not kill them.

And if you want to say, SHE EATS PEOPLE again then I should admit I'm a huge vampire fiction fan. My favorite urban fantasy heroes eat people and often have innocent blood on their hands.

The “True Venatori” exist to empower the White Court.  They want humanity to set aside any beliefs that might get in the way of our purpose as herd animals for White Court Vampires to feed upon.  

Other supernatural powers that make humanity think beyond the fleeting pleasures of the flesh are a threat to the White Court, hence, their fight to make them disappear.  Remember “Zero” and Harry’s inner monologue about “Zero” being the White Court’s vison for the world.

Lara does not want good things for humanity.  She wants humans to prosper so she has better variety at her buffet table.  Unless she expresses a desire to not eat other sentients she is not any human’s friend.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Justine trying to con her way onto Demonreach with an outsider in possession of her is a huge plot hole.  She’s already been on Demonreach.  She was there while the Outsiders assaulted the Island in Cold Days.

If she was already possessed by an outsider (HWHBeside said he’s held her since she started getting close to Lara that goes back to White Night) why didn’t she use her position to sucker punch everyone and release the horrors in the Well?

[C.T. Phipps]

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Justine trying to con her way onto Demonreach with an outsider in possession of her is a huge plot hole.  She’s already been on Demonreach.  She was there while the Outsiders assaulted the Island in Cold Days.

If she was already possessed by an outsider (HWHBeside said he’s held her since she started getting close to Lara that goes back to White Night) why didn’t she use her position to sucker punch everyone and release the horrors in the Well?

I don't think it's a plot hole because you have just described her actions. She tried to take out the Island in Cold Days with Lily and Maeve but failed despite having the power of two Fairy Queens.

Now she has the Eye of Balor.

Getting to the island isn't game over, she needs to have the magical oomph to destroy Demonreach, who is just short of being Cthulhu himself.

The “True Venatori” exist to empower the White Court.  They want humanity to set aside any beliefs that might get in the way of our purpose as herd animals for White Court Vampires to feed upon. 

I think if you believe that's her sole motivation you have severely misread Lara and have missed a lot of subtlety from her character. Remember, at the end of the day, the White Court is human. They're humans with a monster inside them but they have free will in ways the Red and Black Court don't.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I don't think it's a plot hole because you have just described her actions. She tried to take out the Island in Cold Days with Lily and Maeve but failed despite having the power of two Fairy Queens.

Now she has the Eye of Balor.

Getting to the island isn't game over, she needs to have the magical oomph to destroy Demonreach, who is just short of being Cthulhu himself.

 

 

I think if you believe that's her sole motivation you have severely misread Lara and have missed a lot of subtlety from her character. Remember, at the end of the day, the White Court is human. They're humans with a monster inside them but they have free will in ways the Red and Black Court don't.

On Lara, Butcher needs to give her layers if he’s trying to humanize her she needs to regret what she eats to stay alive.  He’s used several books to make her “the most attractive monster on the block.”

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I don't think it's a plot hole because you have just described her actions. She tried to take out the Island in Cold Days with Lily and Maeve but failed despite having the power of two Fairy Queens.

Now she has the Eye of Balor.

Getting to the island isn't game over, she needs to have the magical oomph to destroy Demonreach, who is just short of being Cthulhu himself.

She doesn't have the Eye of Balor.  Dresden does.  I've been wondering about this plot hole for a while. 

I think it's fair to say that Maeve was Nemfected and that skewed her actions but Justine is entirely possessed by HWWB.   

[AverageGuy]

Corny things that are still bugging me days later:

1) Toot rallying for pizza instead of his demonstrated personal loyalty to Harry

2) Conjuritis

3) Butters

Maybe I was in a bad mood when reading, or maybe these were just that twee.

Mechanical things still bugging me:

1) Force spells having an equal and opposite reaction only for the sake of dislocating his shoulder so Murphy can die. Two chapters later he's using force spells to bowl his way through an entire army without arm discomfort or the knockback kicking him off the back of the unicorn. 

2) Lightsaber of faith