Wight Wolf, Rabid Wolf, Tree Wolf, and Wild Wolf

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 12/19/2020 at 2:39 PM, Dragomir said:

Has it even been confirmed that Jon is dead?

The only information outside from the books we have comes from an interview.

 

Quote

 

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

 

 

https://ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/

[Alyn Oakenfist]

48 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The only information outside from the books we have comes from an interview.

You know, it would so funny if it turns out he's merely passed out and not dead and all this time we were theorizing his resurrection. Seems like the kind of thing GRRM would do, particularly seeing as it doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You know, it would so funny if it turns out he's merely passed out and not dead and all this time we were theorizing his resurrection. Seems like the kind of thing GRRM would do, particularly seeing as it doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things

'Tis but a scratch. Just a flesh wound!

[Alyn Oakenfist]

17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Tis but a scratch. Just a flesh wound!

He's had worse

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

18 minutes ago, Tucu said:

'Tis but a scratch. Just a flesh wound!

Jon is a black knight.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You know, it would so funny if it turns out he's merely passed out and not dead and all this time we were theorizing his resurrection. Seems like the kind of thing GRRM would do, particularly seeing as it doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things

I do believe that Jon isn’t dead but in a comalike state. His rebirth as the Azor Ahai, if it hasn’t happened already, doesn’t mean that he will be resurrected but more like clearing his mind. He will understand and accept the role he was born to play. From Jon Snow the bastard of Winterfell he will be Jon Snow Azor Ahai, the prince that was promised and he will accept that his is the song of ice and fire.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I do believe that Jon isn’t dead but in a comalike state. His rebirth as the Azor Ahai, if it hasn’t happened already, doesn’t mean that he will be resurrected but more like clearing his mind. He will understand and accept the role he was born to play. From Jon Snow the bastard of Winterfell he will be Jon Snow Azor Ahai, the prince that was promised and he will accept that his is the song of ice and fire.

Do you believe him being Azor Ahai is a good thing tho? Do you think the savior of a religion that burns everyone who doesn't worship their god is a good thing in a world not predominated by that religion? Do you really think the guy who stabbed the chest of his wife with a red hot sword is a good guy?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Do you believe him being Azor Ahai is a good thing tho? Do you think the savior of a religion that burns everyone who doesn't worship their god is a good thing in a world not predominated by that religion? Do you really think the guy who stabbed the chest of his wife with a red hot sword is a good guy?

I believe that Azor Ahai is just the Essosi name of the Prince that was promised. In Asshai culture he was Azor Ahai, in ancient maybe Westerosi prophecies he was the Prince that was promised. Same character different name and different traits according to each culture. In ASOIAF Azor Ahai is one only one of the names, the one that Melisandre uses, the Prince that was promised is another and there are even more names Hyrkoon the Hero, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser, Yin Tar and even the Last hero. Much like how Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, Indra and Perun are almost identical characters but with different names and traits.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I believe that Azor Ahai is just the Essosi name of the Prince that was promised. In Asshai culture he was Azor Ahai, in ancient maybe Westerosi prophecies he was the Prince that was promised. Same character different name and different traits according to each culture. In ASOIAF Azor Ahai is one only one of the names, the one that Melisandre uses, the Prince that was promised is another and there are even more names Hyrkoon the Hero, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser, Yin Tar and even the Last hero. Much like how Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, Indra and Perun are almost identical characters but with different names and traits.

But the character is associated the most with one of the two most disgusting religions in the story, and one of the two religions with the most zealotry. I don't think, given GRRM's writing history, that such disgusting people would turn out to be right.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

43 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

But the character is associated the most with one of the two most disgusting religions in the story, and one of the two religions with the most zealotry. I don't think, given GRRM's writing history, that such disgusting people would turn out to be right.

The hero has nothing to do with the sects that worship him. If for example Zeus in one corner of the earth is followed by people that worship him by, I don’t know, plant some seeds of roses and on the other corner of earth the same god is worshiped by people who commit human sacrifices by torturing is the god to blame or the followers? Ultimately it’s the followers that give to their god the traits they want based on their culture and society.

[CamiloRP]

9 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The hero has nothing to do with the sects that worship him. If for example Zeus in one corner of the earth is followed by people that worship him by, I don’t know, plant some seeds of roses and on the other corner of earth the same god is worshiped by people who commit human sacrifices by torturing is the god to blame or the followers? Ultimately it’s the followers that give to their god the traits they want based on their culture and society.

No, but they foretell his coming. So, his coming would validate their religion. GRRM has associated him the most with said religion, and that religion is disgusting. The man is presumably also 'not good', as he murdered his wife.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

So, his coming would validate their religion. GRRM has associated him the most with said religion, and that religion is disgusting. The man is presumably also 'not good', as he murdered his wife.

Not sure. There seems to be many various cultural versions of the same myth. Take the most popular two versions

- The Last Hero is a very Northern story about the horrors of winter, the children and self sacrifice. All Northern things

- Azor Ahai on the other hand is a very R'hllor story, about fire and sacrificing others. It is also very much a light vs dark heroic battle, as opposed to the more suvivalistic tone of the last hero.

[CamiloRP]

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not sure. There seems to be many various cultural versions of the same myth. Take the most popular two versions

- The Last Hero is a very Northern story about the horrors of winter, the children and self sacrifice. All Northern things

- Azor Ahai on the other hand is a very R'hllor story, about fire and sacrificing others. It is also very much a light vs dark heroic battle, as opposed to the more suvivalistic tone of the last hero.

The difference is that no one expects the Last Hero to come back, like no one expects Bran the Builder to come back.

Also, the light vs dark battle makes it sound even less possible to me, I mean that's really un-nuanced for ASOIAF, and George tends to portray people who see things in a black or white way as villains.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

26 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The difference is that no one expects the Last Hero to come back, like no one expects Bran the Builder to come back.

Also, the light vs dark battle makes it sound even less possible to me, I mean that's really un-nuanced for ASOIAF, and George tends to portray people who see things in a black or white way as villains.

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that both Azor Ahai and the Last Hero seem to be imperfect representations of the real deal, so we shouldn't expect Jon, Dany, Stannis or whoever else we thing is the hero to behave exactly like any of these stories.

[CamiloRP]

36 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that both Azor Ahai and the Last Hero seem to be imperfect representations of the real deal, so we shouldn't expect Jon, Dany, Stannis or whoever else we thing is the hero to behave exactly like any of these stories.

Yeah, absolutely. Tho my thinking is that whoever sends the visions wants to use the Azor Ahai archetype to cause more war.

[Dragomir]

22 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The only information outside from the books we have comes from an interview.

 

 

https://ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/

I thought so, thank you

[Curled Finger]

On 12/18/2020 at 6:09 AM, CamiloRP said:

Tho I don't think all the 'Starks will do x horrible thing' posts are even worth our time, I don't think this is such a good argument. GRRM love Tyrion above everything, and he's been turning into more and more of a villain.

Martin also said Tyrion was a villain.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 12/15/2020 at 7:40 AM, James West said:

All are mechanisms for revenge.  But this is not an Alexandre Dumas tale in which the man carrying out revenge was an innocent victim.  The Starks were involved in the politics going on in Westeros.  They insulted and stepped on many toes.  Robb killed a loyal bannerman and broke his promise to another.  Jon Snow betrayed the Night's Watch.  Still, I believe they were wronged in some ways.  But the revenge these wolves will inflict on the Lannisters, Freys, Boltons, Bowen Marsh, and the Karstarks will exceed what is fair in my opinion.  I know it will be fun for some fans of the novels.  Martin may only do this for fun.  Revenge can be fun to read.  But we also need to ask whether it will accomplish anything productive.  The bad things that happened took place during war.  A war the Starks chose to participate in. 

1. Wight Wolf - Jon Snow
2. Rabid Wolf - Arya Stark
3. Tree Wolf - Bran Stark
4. Wild Wolf - Rickon Stark

Winter is the time for wolves, Others, wights, and Starks.  They will be on top of the food chain for as long as winter lasts.  But I am hoping the winter won't be as long as Old Nan says it is. 

I'm curious to see how Bran will deal with Jaime Lannister.  He's not as bad as Arya and Jon but forgiving Jaime is not likely.