Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Two eyes rose up before him.
Bronze, they were, brighter than polished shields, glowing with their own heat, burning behind a veil of smoke rising from the dragon’s nostrils. The light of Quentyn’s torch washed over scales of dark green, the green of moss in the deep woods at dusk, just before the last light fades. Then the dragon opened its mouth, and light and heat washed over them. Behind a fence of sharp black teeth he glimpsed the furnace glow, the shimmer of a sleeping fire a hundred times brighter than his torch. The dragon’s head was larger than a horse’s, and the neck stretched on and on, uncoiling like some great green serpent as the head rose, until those two glowing bronze eyes were staring down at him.
Green, the prince thought, his scales are green. “Rhaegal,” he said. His voice caught in his throat, and what came out was a broken croak. Frog, he thought, I am turning into Frog again.

This bit is really interesting.  I'm reminded that Dany has to pass beneath the shadow and touch the light.   Also, the red door at Dragonstone where entry is through the mouth of a dragon.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, LongRider said:

This is quite interesting, and does make some sense.  While dragons and direwolves are both magical creatures, direwolves are closer to the natural animals than the dragons are, I would argue. 
Regular animals are easily warged, direwolves are warged by Starks only (though Ghost once by Mel {maybe}) and so far dragons have not been warged, even by Dany.
A hierarchy of warging perhaps? 

Depends who is the dominant partner. Are not the dragons "warging" Danaerys? and what about the wolves - it was they who attached themselves to the children of Winterfell. After all, Jon's beserk rages are surely down to Ghost taking control.

[Frey family reunion]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

This bit is really interesting.  I'm reminded that Dany has to pass beneath the shadow and touch the light.   Also, the red door at Dragonstone where entry is through the mouth of a dragon.

Yea, that’s a good catch:

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The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light. Cressen stepped down into the dragon’s maw.

 

[Melifeather]

Lady Mellario was very attached to her son, Quentyn:

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Quentyn had been very young when he was sent to Yronwood; too young, according to their mother. Norvoshi did not foster out their children, and Lady Mellario had never forgiven Prince Doran for taking her son away from her. "I like it no more than you do," Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept."

Arianne asserts that Quentyn looks like Doran:

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"Why not? You favor him and always have. He looks like you, he thinks like you, and you mean to give him Dorne, don't trouble to deny it. I read your letter." The words still burned as bright as fire in her memory. "'One day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne,' you wrote him. Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

Doran planned for Quentyn to take over for him in Dorne:

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"No. That was when Quentyn first went to Yronwood. I did intend for him to follow me, yes. I had other plans for you."

Doran also said that Quentyn has a hard road to take and that he is to bring back the Martell's "heart's desire".

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Her father plucked up a cyvasse piece. "I must know how you learned that Quentyn was abroad. Your brother went with Cletus Yronwood, Maester Kedry, and three of Lord Yronwood's best young knights on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. He has gone to bring us back our heart's desire."

Why would Doran need Daenerys to take the Iron Throne if he already had Elia's son Aegon?

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Lady Mellario was very attached to her son, Quentyn:

Arianne asserts that Quentyn looks like Doran:

Doran planned for Quentyn to take over for him in Dorne:

Doran also said that Quentyn has a hard road to take and that he is to bring back the Martell's "heart's desire".

Why would Doran need Daenerys to take the Iron Throne if he already had Elia's son Aegon?

These are the soap opera aspects that I really wanted to avoid in Heresy.  But since you brought it up here are my thoughts:

As for Quentyn looking like Doran, perhaps no more unusual than Jon looking like Ned.  After all if Quentyn is Aegon, then he is still blood relation to Doran.  The same as Jon is a blood relation to Ned even if he wasn't conceived by Ned.

As for your last question, what Doran needs from Daenerys is her dragons.  His interest in Daenerys was only spakred when it was revealed that she hatched the dragons.  So the question should be why send Quentyn after the dragons?

As for any attachments, if Quentyn is actually Aegon, he's still an adopted child of Doran and Mellario.  They are his parents regardless of his conception.  It's kind of the same fallacy that was bounced around in the R + L forums.  Someone posted there once that Ned never actually referred to Jon as his son.  Which is actually false.  In the first chapter Ned does so.  It doesn't mean that Ned's a liar.  Because whether or not Ned conceived Jon, Ned is Jon's father.  Both legally and emotionally.  The same would hold true for Doran and Mellario and Quentyn.  Affection doesn't only come about through blood relation.  

As for Doran's early plans, they were all brought about apparently through a secret pact with Willem Darry.  Doran was looking for an alliance, because he wasn't about to try to overthrow Robert by his lonesome.  Revealing Quentyn as Aegon would have both ruined the alliance, and if it got out would have put a huge target on Dorne and Quentyn.

As for why that alliance didn't include Quentyn and Daenerys that's an interesting question.  But it may speak more to Daenerys true origin than it does to Quentyn's.

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

These are the soap opera aspects that I really wanted to avoid in Heresy.  But since you brought it up here are my thoughts:

As for Quentyn looking like Doran, perhaps no more unusual than Jon looking like Ned.  After all if Quentyn is Aegon, then he is still blood relation to Doran.  The same as Jon is a blood relation to Ned even if he wasn't conceived by Ned.

As for your last question, what Doran needs from Daenerys is her dragons.  His interest in Daenerys was only spakred when it was revealed that she hatched the dragons.  So the question should be why send Quentyn after the dragons?

As for any attachments, if Quentyn is actually Aegon, he's still an adopted child of Doran and Mellario.  They are his parents regardless of his conception.  It's kind of the same fallacy that was bounced around in the R + L forums.  Someone posted there once that Ned never actually referred to Jon as his son.  Which is actually false.  In the first chapter Ned does so.  It doesn't mean that Ned's a liar.  Because whether or not Ned conceived Jon, Ned is Jon's father.  Both legally and emotionally.  The same would hold true for Doran and Mellario and Quentyn.  Affection doesn't only come about through blood relation.  

As for Doran's early plans, they were all brought about apparently through a secret pact with Willem Darry.  Doran was looking for an alliance, because he wasn't about to try to overthrow Robert by his lonesome.  Revealing Quentyn as Aegon would have both ruined the alliance, and if it got out would have put a huge target on Dorne and Quentyn.

As for why that alliance didn't include Quentyn and Daenerys that's an interesting question.  But it may speak more to Daenerys true origin than it does to Quentyn's.

Why is this "soap opera-ish"? They are all good points and you even made a nice parallel with Jon. My personal opinion is that Jon is Ned's natural son, so I do like the possible inverted parallel of Quentyn being Doran's secret nephew. The funny thing is Ser Arys didn't realize Arianne had a brother Quentyn. He thought Trystane was her only brother:

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"Your brother?" Ser Arys put his hand beneath her chin and raised her head, the better to look her in the eyes. "You cannot mean Trystane, he is just a boy."

"Not Trys. Quentyn." Her eyes were bold and black as sin, unflinching. "I have known the truth since I was four-and-ten, since the day that I went to my father's solar to give him a good night kiss, and found him gone. My mother had sent for him, I learned later. He'd left a candle burning. When I went to blow it out, I found a letter lying incomplete beside it, a letter to my brother Quentyn, off at Yronwood. My father told Quentyn that he must do all that his maester and his master-at-arms required of him, because 'one day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne, and a ruler must be strong of mind and body.'" A tear crept down Arianne's soft cheek. "My father's words, written in his own hand. They burned themselves into my memory. I cried myself to sleep that night, and many nights thereafter."

 

Quentyn is roughly the correct age to be Aegon. He mentions being 18 years old in 300 AC which places his birth at the end of 281 or beginning of 282 - which would tie in perfectly with a pregnant Elia at the Harrenhal tourney. 

[Black Crow]

Anent Quentyn/Aegon and Danaerys, the Targaryens were notorious for regarding incest as best in order to keep it all in the family

[Frey family reunion]

26 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Why is this "soap opera-ish"? They are all good points and you even made a nice parallel with Jon. My personal opinion is that Jon is Ned's natural son, so I do like the possible inverted parallel of Quentyn being Doran's secret nephew. The funny thing is Ser Arys didn't realize Arianne had a brother Quentyn. He thought Trystane was her only brother:

Quentyn is roughly the correct age to be Aegon. He mentions being 18 years old in 300 AC which places his birth at the end of 281 or beginning of 282 - which would tie in perfectly with a pregnant Elia at the Harrenhal tourney. 

When I said “soap opera-ish” I really just meant some of the more nit picky details that would have to be worked out.  I’m just not as interested in that story as I am in the role that Quentyn would play in the bigger “song of ice and fire” aspect of the story.

(Even though there is one “game of thrones” aspect that would be interesting if in fact Quentyn was actually Aegon.  It would mean that Doran would be fairly certain that Young Griff was an imposter and how that would play on any attempt at an alliance between Young Griff’s forces and Dorne).

It was probably this quote that made me first suspicious that there might be a Quentyn-Aegon connection:

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So may this, the prince thought. The follies and failures of Aegon the Unworthy did not concern him, but he was full of doubts and misgivings. The labored banter of his friends was only making his head ache. They do not understand. They may be Dornish, but I am Dorne. Years from now, when I am dead, this will be the song they sing of me. He rose abruptly. “It’s time.”

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“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Doran would be fairly certain that Young Griff was an imposter

Well. For me this is a very compelling argument against Quentyn being Aegon, and given the nature of Doran's slowness in acting - the over ripe blood oranges symbolize that Doran waits too long to act - why would he make an alliance with Young Griff now, especially if he knows he's an imposter? Does Young Griff's force look strong enough to overthrow a weakened Cersei/Tommen? I know he wants vengeance and justice for Elia, but since he's been so cautious in the past, are these last ditch efforts an attempt to do "something" before he gets too incapacitated to do anything?

[Black Crow]

The old old story. Use Griff to work over the opposition before the dynamic duo arrive to save the kingdom from anarchy

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Well. For me this is a very compelling argument against Quentyn being Aegon, and given the nature of Doran's slowness in acting - the over ripe blood oranges symbolize that Doran waits too long to act - why would he make an alliance with Young Griff now, especially if he knows he's an imposter? Does Young Griff's force look strong enough to overthrow a weakened Cersei/Tommen? I know he wants vengeance and justice for Elia, but since he's been so cautious in the past, are these last ditch efforts an attempt to do "something" before he gets too incapacitated to do anything?

Last we heard he hasn't made an alliance with Young Griff.  Instead he sent out Arianne to guage the strength of his forces and report back to him.  Which seems to be Doran's modus operandi.  He sent Oberyn to King's Landing for the same purposes, to make certain inquiries and report back to Doran.  It's just that Oberyn took certain matters into his own hands.  

But my guess is that Doran's interest in Young Griff isn't because he believes Young Griff is his nephew (and that's regardless of whether Quentyn is Aegon).  It's because Young Griff has an army and an alliance might help him gain vengeance on the Lannisters who are currently in charge of King's Landing.  It also allows him an opportunity to put his daughter as Queen.  It's basically the Viserys plan all over again for Doran.  

My belief is his interest in Dany is for one thing and one thing only, her dragons.  

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Last we heard he hasn't made an alliance with Young Griff.  Instead he sent out Arianne to guage the strength of his forces and report back to him.  Which seems to be Doran's modus operandi.  He sent Oberyn to King's Landing for the same purposes, to make certain inquiries and report back to Doran.  It's just that Oberyn took certain matters into his own hands.  

But my guess is that Doran's interest in Young Griff isn't because he believes Young Griff is his nephew (and that's regardless of whether Quentyn is Aegon).  It's because Young Griff has an army and an alliance might help him gain vengeance on the Lannisters who are currently in charge of King's Landing.  It also allows him an opportunity to put his daughter as Queen.  It's basically the Viserys plan all over again for Doran.  

My belief is his interest in Dany is for one thing and one thing only, her dragons.  

You may be correct, but it makes me wonder why Dorne wasn't interested in teaming up with Stannis? Doran didn't send anyone to Stannis to make inquiries. Stannis must be strong enough for the Iron Bank to consider backing him when they could have just as easily offered their support to JonCon and Young Griff. If we take Young Griff''s identity off the table and just make him another aspiring conqueror, then Stannis looks to be the better choice to make an alliance with.

[Black Crow]

44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You may be correct, but it makes me wonder why Dorne wasn't interested in teaming up with Stannis? .

Because Stannis is Stannis. There's nothing to be gained. Stannis will accept support as his right and complain if he doesn't get it. Duty is its own reward.

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Because Stannis is Stannis. There's nothing to be gained. Stannis will accept support as his right and complain if he doesn't get it. Duty is its own reward.

And as an aside, I doubt that the Martells are a big fan of any of the Baratheons or would be that eager to get in bed with them, even if they share a common enemy.

I think Doran was more than happy to keep his troops on the sideline during that showdown and hope whoever the winner was became substantially weakened from the war.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My belief is his interest in Dany is for one thing and one thing only, her dragons.  

[alienarea]

On 4/9/2021 at 4:11 PM, Frey family reunion said:

My belief is his interest in Dany is for one thing and one thing only, her dragons.

I tend to agree. Considering the relationship between House Martell and House Targaryen, and the succession rights in Dorne, this implies one of the following:

1. Doran doesn't care about Daenerys because he has Aegon.

2. Doran doesn't care about Daenerys because he knows she is fake.

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

I tend to agree. Considering the relationship between House Martell and House Targaryen, and the succession rights in Dorne, this implies one of the following:

1. Doran doesn't care about Daenerys because he has Aegon.

2. Doran doesn't care about Daenerys because he knows she is fake.

Depends of course how you define "fake", but you're quite right. The Dornish will rally round a Prince rather than a princess

[LynnS]

The miniature roses in my corner bed are sending up green shoots!  Hooray! I didn't know if they would over-winter.  That's a bright spot in my day.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The miniature roses in my corner bed are sending up green shoots!  Hooray! I didn't know if they would over-winter.  That's a bright spot in my day.

I planted garlic last fall and the shoots are 3-4 inches tall. My peony is coming up as well as my lilies. Spring has sprung!

[Black Crow]

Spring has sprung

The grass is ris

I wonder where the birdies is

Da birds are on the wing

,,, but that's absurd, cos the wing is on the bird