Why wasn't Robb betrothed by the beginning of the story?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

3 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

Starks did marry southern woman for two gen straight. Beron Stark married a Royce and William Stark married a Blackwood.

They were southern but also they were First Men. Especially the Blackwoods were Northern once too.

[Lord of Oldstones]

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

They were southern but also they were First Men. Especially the Blackwoods were Northern once too.

More than half the houses of south are first men origin including the red haired Tullys.  

Besides, with intermarriages andal origin houses such as Arryn,Vance,Frey,Corbray etc have no less first men blood than a Blackwood or Royce.

 

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

32 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

More than half the houses of south are first men origin including the red haired Tullys.  

Besides, with intermarriages andal origin houses such as Arryn,Vance,Frey,Corbray etc have no less first men blood than a Blackwood or Royce.

 

 

 

Perhaps it’s a cultural reason, since the Blackwoods worship the Old Gods? No word on the Royces.

[Lord of Oldstones]

26 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Perhaps it’s a cultural reason, since the Blackwoods worship the Old Gods? No word on the Royces.

Royces worship Seven.Blackwoods are regarded as the most important Old gods worshipping house south of the Neck.

If we bring in religion, couple of Manderly marriages we see in Stark family tree too would be deemed foreign. It makes no sense. Heck, even House Locke could have converted to Seven under influence of nearby Manderlys. 

Westerosi are fairly assimilated. They speak same language from Dorne to Wall & Tarth to Lonely light.They say " old gods and the new" before taking any vows. Noble blood is given more emphasis than religion. Especially when these noble houses except Salty Dornish ones are  basically same race.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, Lightoftheast said:

More than half the houses of south are first men origin including the red haired Tullys.  

I was mostly referring at the whole cultural aspect. The Blackwoods seem to be the only house in the South that still follow the Old Gods and they still keep their First Men traditions.

27 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

If we bring in religion, couple of Manderly marriages we see in Stark family tree too would be deemed foreign. It makes no sense. Heck, even House Locke could have converted to Seven under influence of nearby Manderlys. 

That is right bun the Manderly are Northerners for the last thousand years.

[Megorova]

@Lilac & Gooseberries I'm back. Let's clear up what I meant before.

The seven Major Houses - Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Tyrells, Martells, Lannisters, Baratheons - they all are sort of equals, because they all are Overlords, while all other Lords of 7K are mere Bannermen. And the King of 7K is like a SuperOverlord.

For an Overlord's son to marry with a daughter of his father's Bannerman is the same as taking money out of your right pocket and placing them in your left pocket. It doesn't change the amount of money that you have. Overlord already owns everything that is on his lands, including everything that belongs to his Bannermen. If he will want to, he can take away his Bannerman's lands and title, or the opposite - to give lands and title to whoever he will want, like making someone a landed knight, or creating a new Bannerman-House on his lands.

For an Overlord's son to marry with a daughter of a Bannerman, who is serving to a diffrent Overlord (not the groom's father), is the same as taking money out of your pocket and placing them into someone else's pocket, which potentially takes those money out of your control. Also in this case his wife will be serving to two masters - to her husband's House and to the House of her father's Overlord, which is not good for her husband. Also his wife's Overlord can take away her father's lands and titles, and the husband will be unable to intervene, because on his own lands an Overlord can do whatever he wants, but can't prevent the other Overlord from doing the same on his own lands, with his own Bannermen.

For an Overlord's son to marry with a daughter of another Overlord is the same as if someone else took his own money and placed them in your pocket, for you to have them and use them however you want. In this case the husband and the wife are equals, and their fathers don't have any control over each other, or the other's lands, etc. Though, this sort of marriage could be beneficial for the husband, because as his wife's dowry he can receive lands, castles or keeps that previously were part of his father-in-law's property.

Thus, for an Overlord's son to marry with a daughter of another Overlord, is more favourable than to marry with a daughter of a Bannerman, because they are equals. Though to marry with a daughter of his father's Bannerman is more favourable than to marry with a daughter of a Bannerman that serves to an Overlord of a different region. And to marry with the King's/SuperOverlord's daughter is the most favourable option. The King can strip even other Overlords of their lands and titles. For example, how the Warden titles were taken away from Arryns and Starks, and instead Littlefinger became the Warden of the East, and Roose Bolton was made the Warden of the North, and the rule over Winterfell also was given to him. Same as the King can take away, he also can do the opposite - to give. For example, if Renly (who was the Lord of Stormlands) died before Robert, then Robert could have bestowed Stormlands to Myrcella, and if Robb married with Myrcella, then eventually he would have became not only the Lord of the North but also the Lord-Consort of the Stormlands (let's ignore Stannis in this example, who is the Lord of Dragonstone, not Stormlands, because Renly was Robert's heir of Stormlands, not Stannis).

Catelyn, Ned, Lysa, Jon, Robert, Cersei, Margaery, Renly - they all married with their equals, Overlord+Overlord, while Stannis married with a woman below his social status, with a Bannerman's daughter. Maybe Catelyn wanted for Robb to have an equal marriage, for him to marry with an Overlord's daughter, or even with the King's daughter, to heighten his social status.

Also all of Overlord's children are potentially his heirs.

- with Ned's and Cat's death, with Robb dead, and people thinking that Bran and Rickon are also dead, Sansa by 7K's laws de-jure became the Rulling Lady of The North. (If only Lannisters didn't took Winterfell from her and didn't gave it to Boltons.)

- with Jaime a Kingsguard, and Tyrion out of the picture, Cersei became Tywin's heir and the Rulling Lady of Westerlands.

- with Renly dead, if Tommen will also die, then Myrcella will become not only the Queen of 7K, she will also become the Rulling Lady of the Stormlands.

Thus, in a matter of favourability, from the least favourable to the most favourable, candidates for the role of Robb's bride:

1. Blackwood, Frey, Tarly, Dayne, Hightower, or a girl from any other House that is a Bannerman from outside of The North;

2. Karstark, Mormont, Umber, or other Northern Houses, Bannermen of Starks;

3. Martell, Tyrell, Lannister, Baratheon (Renly's child or Stannis' child, not the King's daughter), Arryn, Tully;

4. the King's daughter, or a daughter of an Archon, or Magister, or the Sealord, or the Lyseni Prince, etc.

So, what I wrote before, this

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Someone like Margaery Tyrell, or Arianne Martell, or even Princess Myrcella Baratheon. A girl who was an heir to one of the other 6K's thrones.

does make sense in a broader concept that any of those three girls is Robb's equal, because same as him they are from an Overlord House, and also they are potentially their fathers' heirs (if male heirs will die first, without an issue (child/heir) of their own).

Concerning six thrones, I didn't meant literal chairs, I meant statuses of a Kingdom's rulers. If Mace Tyrell and his sons will die, then Margaery will be the Rulling Lady of The Reach, then the figurative Throne of The Reach will be hers. Same, if Doran will die, then Arianne will sit on the Dornish Throne. Etc.

16 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

There is no Riverland's throne, after Edmure's birth Cat stoped being the heir and they were married with the Lords not the heirs.  Ergo they have nothing to do with your original comment.

Yes, some Houses either never were Kings or lost their thrones long ago. Though some Houses still have literal thrones, such as The Seastone Chair is a throne of Greyjoys'/Iron Islands. Though, even in cases when there are no actual throne in some Lord's castle, he still is sitting in a figurative seat of power. In a sense that when Ned Stark died, his heir, Robb, took over the seat of Winterfell.

As a Tully, and Hoster's daughter, Cat still is potentially an heir to Riverlands. If Edmure will die without leaving any children that could inherite after him, then Cat would have became the Lady/Ruler of Riverlans.

My original comment was that Cat and Lysa both married with their equals, with Ned and Jon, who were Overlords, same as Hoster. If Hoster's male-heir would have died without leaving an issue, then Catelyn would have inherited Riverlands, and her husband would have became Lord-Consort of the Riverlands. Both Cat+Ned and Lysa+Jon marriages were highly favourable for their Houses. And could be that Catelyn wanted no less favourable marriage for her son.

16 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The heir being married with a bannerman’s second daughter or a second son is how you forge alliances made by blood. 1. If the two heirs marry each other where they are going to live? 2. Who will rule to each of their regions? Will those regions unite? 3. Who will be their heir?

1. With the husband. (Because that's the way in 7K.)

Or here and there. Either separately. while occasionally visiting each other. Or they can live together, while splitting a year between two residences, half of a year living in one Kingdon, half of a year in the other castle.

2. The husband's castle/Kingdom will be ruled by him, while the wife's castle/Kingdom will be ruled by a castellan, or a Regent, or something like that. I forgot what's the proper term, maybe - viceroy (a ruler exercising authority in a colony on behalf of a sovereign).

3. Firstborn son will inherit the father's seat, and the second son will inherit the mother's seat. Or something like that. They will split the titles between their children.

For example here:

https://www.historyextra.com/period/tudor/sibling-rivalry-henry-viii-richard-iii-monarchs-brothers-sisters/

"William the Conqueror left England to his second son, another William, while the eldest son, Robert, inherited Normandy."

And this:

Mary I of England was married to Philip II of Spain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Spain

Philip's father was

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

"Charles V^[a] (24 February 1500 – 21 September 1558) was Holy Roman Emperor and Archduke of Austria from 1519 to 1556, King of Spain (Castile and Aragon) from 1516 to 1556, and Lord of the Netherlands "

his mother was

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Portugal

"Isabella of Portugal (24 October 1503 – 1 May 1539), also known as the Empress of the Carnation, was Holy Roman Empress, Queen of Spain, Germany, and Italy, and Lady of the Netherlands by her marriage to Emperor Charles V."

Charles and Isabella split their titles between their children - Philip II King of Spain, Maria - Holy Roman Empress, Joanna - Princess of Portugal.

Joanna inherited Portugal from her mother, while her two older siblings inherited Spain and Roman Empire from their father.

[BlackLightning]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, let's take a look at Sansa:

Smalljon Umber: Age unknown, maybe under 20 given that he's still growing

Harrion Karstark: [Insert Meryn Trant catchphrase]

Domeric Bolton: Dead

Cley Cerwyn: Too low on the totem pole

Jojen Reed: See Cley Cerwyn

House Ryswell: Unknown

House Manderly: No sons

Benfred Tallhart: ?

Brandon Tallhart: Too low

Beren Tallhart: Too low

Oh, and for Robb: I forgot House Mormont. Yeah, that's a no-go. House Mormont may have several daughters but they're disgraced and too low on the totem pole.

How the hell is House Mormont a no-go?! House Mormont secured a marriage with House freaking Hightower, for God's sake. House Hightower! Not only do they rule the largest, wealthiest and best city in Westeros but they have married kings. Oops, did I mention that the Hightowers themselves were kings?

Getouttahere *Long Island accent*

Dacey or Alysanne Mormont would have been excellent matches for Robb. Besides, you have Meera Reed, the Blackwood and Bracken girls, the Manderly girls and there are the Royces who are practically half-northern given how many times the Starks have married them. The Redforts are one of the last First Men houses in the Vale; good match for Robb.

Another really good match for Robb would have been any of the Tyrell girls with Margaery being #1.

If Balon Greyjoy was half of the butthurt idiotic ass that he was, Asha for Robb would have been perfect.

Ned Stark's grandmother is a woman from House Flint and we don't know what kind of Flint she was at that. So I don't think it's a case of being too lowly. You can make the "too lowborn" argument for Sansa but not for Robb.

Robb will be the Lord of Winterfell. All he needs a consort, a healthy young woman of fine breeding.

With Sansa, it's a bit more complicated. she is the firstborn daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and the Warden of the North. Her station makes it so where she must marry either royalty, a high lord or the heir of a high lord. She deserves to rule a household like Catelyn rules Winterfell and Lysa rules the Eyrie.

While Robb marrying (let's say) any one of the Frey girls is no big deal, Sansa doing the same thing is a big deal. She can't marry just any Frey she needs to marry the heir to House Frey.

Willas Tyrell is a good match for Sansa. Garlan Tyrell is a bad match for Sansa.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

12 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

Starks did marry southern woman for two gen straight. Beron Stark married a Royce and William Stark married a Blackwood.

They were southern but also they were First Men. Especially the Blackwoods were Northern once too.

Those Starks married with women out of the North, because those women possibly were Starks by blood.

Lorra Royce was Sarra Stark's daughter.

Arya Flint was Raya Stark's daughter.

(Lysara Karstark was Alys Stark's daughter.) Edit: not Lysara Karstark, who was Artos Stark's wife, but Alys Karstark, wife of Brandon Stark, two generations above Lysara.

Melantha Blackwood was daughter of Mya River's, granddaughter of Melissa Blackwood, and great granddaughter of Mariah Stark.

Those four girls - Sarra, Raya, Alys and Mariah were Cregan Stark's daughters, born by Alysanne Blackwood.

So, besides Cregan's marriage with Alysanne, and then Ned's marriage with Cat, Robb's with Jeyne Westerling, and possibly Lyanna's with Rhaegar, all other Starks ALWAYS married only with other Northerners. Those supposedly Royce and Blackwood brides were actually half-Starks by blood, so they don't count.

[Angel Eyes]

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Getouttahere *Long Island accent*

 

No, I cannot *European accent*

 

Quote

How the hell is House Mormont a no-go?! House Mormont secured a marriage with House freaking Hightower, for God's sake. House Hightower! Not only do they rule the largest, wealthiest and best city in Westeros but they have married kings. Oops, did I mention that the Hightowers themselves were kings?

Well, Jorah and Lynesse was a love match and then Jorah sold poachers. So the Mormonts are disgraced.

[BlackLightning]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, Jorah and Lynesse was a love match

Umm, I think that's irrelevant...

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

and then Jorah sold poachers. So the Mormonts are disgraced.

Okay good point.

But I still think that they are still good enough to be consorts to the Lord of Winterfell. At least on paper. Catelyn may not have been too fond of it but hey, you have to build your reputation back up at some point. You have to lift your bannermen up when they are down and Ned isn't the type to punish or dismiss an entire House for the really bad decision of a member of that House gone rogue.

He still had lots of respect and love for Jeor Mormont.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

55 minutes ago, Megorova said:

1. With the husband. (Because that's the way in 7K.)

Or here and there. Either separately. while occasionally visiting each other. Or they can live together, while splitting a year between two residences, half of a year living in one Kingdon, half of a year in the other castle.

2. The husband's castle/Kingdom will be ruled by him, while the wife's castle/Kingdom will be ruled by a castellan, or a Regent, or something like that. I forgot what's the proper term, maybe - viceroy (a ruler exercising authority in a colony on behalf of a sovereign).

3. Firstborn son will inherit the father's seat, and the second son will inherit the mother's seat. Or something like that. They will split the titles between their children.

That is like asking for a rebellion. The region is not anymore ruled by their Lord or Lady and they have been abandoned at the hands of a Regent and when the second born, if there is one, comes of age and goes back to rule the region then he will not have the support of the people because he will not be one of them.

 As for the rest I am not sure that things work the way you suggest. By marrying with the bannermen the Lord forges stronger bonds with his bannermen and gains their support. Jon Arryn married two Vale Ladies before Lysa. All of Olenna’s children married their bannermen, Hoster also married someone from the Riverlands, all of Gerold Lannister children married within the Westerlands. That is how you gain the support of your bannermen.

36 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Those Starks married with women out of the North, because those women possibly were Starks by blood.

Lorra Royce was Sarra Stark's daughter.

Arya Flint was Raya Stark's daughter.

Lysara Karstark was Alys Stark's daughter.

Melantha Blackwood was daughter of Mya River's, granddaughter of Melissa Blackwood, and great granddaughter of Mariah Stark.

Prove it.

[frenin]

18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

Can someone point out where Cat (or Ned for that matter) pointed out this or that candidate for Robb?? 

 

@Alyn Oakenfist

Both Myrcella and Margaery were very real options for Robb at the beginning of the series.

 

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Can someone point out where Cat (or Ned for that matter) pointed out this or that candidate for Robb?? 

 

@Alyn Oakenfist

Both Myrcella and Margaery were very real options for Robb at the beginning of the series.

 

They didn’t, this is a (rather arbitrary) list I made of eligible bachelorettes in the North.

[frenin]

18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

They didn’t, this is a (rather arbitrary) list I made of eligible bachelorettes in the North.

Fair enough, i was asking because instead of seeing "Robb could marry this or the other", I kept seeing "Cat would veto this or the other and would push for this or the other." 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Those Starks married with women out of the North, because those women possibly were Starks by blood.

Prove it.

Look at the family tree of Starks:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark#Family_tree

300 years of their family's history, 31 marriages, out of them 8 not with Northerners.

Two with The Vale - ex-King Torrhen Stark's daughter married with Ronnel Arryn; and Beron Stark married with Lorra Royce. Three with Riverlands - Cregan Stark with Alysanne Blackwood, Willam with Melantha Blackwood, and Eddard with Catelyn Tully. Two with Westerlands - Sansa with Tyrion Lannister, and Robb with Jeyne Westerling. One with Stormlands - Branda Stark with Harrold Rogers.

The last three doesn't count - because Starks haven't chosen Sansa's husband nor Robb's wife, and Harrold Rogers is a homage to this -

"The house is an homage to Roger Zelazny, a late colleague of George R. R. Martin.^[5] Zelazny's most famous series is The Chronicles of Amber, which includes nine princes. The unicorns and the maze that feature in the coat of arms of House Rogers are mentioned in Zelazny's series."

Also that first marriage with an Arryn, doesn't count. Because it wasn't Torrhen Stark, who decided to marry his daughter to a guy outside of The North. It was Queen Rhaenys Targaryen who arranged that marriage. Furthermore, that Stark-girl and her husband died before they had children, so they are not a part of the Stark-bloodline.

Both Cregan's marriage with Alysanne Blackwood and Ned's with Catelyn Tully was a neccessity, a result of war/postwar negotiations.

So the only two not-Northern brides that are left are Melantha Blackwood and Lorra Royce.

Was there some war going on at the time of their weddings? Were those unions a necessity like Ned's wedding with Cat, or Cregan's with Alysanne, or were those Starks forced or tricked into marrying out of The North, like it was in case with Sansa and Robb? No, and no. No war, and no special circumstances given in the World book for those two marriages.

Thus Lorra and Melantha doesn't fit into the usual pattern of marriages present in the family tree of Starks. Though, are they, really? Not if Lorra is Sarra Stark's daughter, and if Melantha is also a partial Stark by blood.

I will give you an unquestionable prove when GRRM will release second volume of Fire&Blood. I'll quote you that part of the family tree of Starks, in which there will be written that Sarra married with a Royce and Lorra was their daughter, and that Mariah married with a Blackwood, and that Melissa Blackwood was her daughter, and Melantha Blackwood was her great granddaughter.

(Edit: There was also Jocelyn Stark, who married out of The North, with Benedict Royce, Valeman. But this marriage also doesn't count, because of this:

"In the first edition of The World of Ice & Fire, the Stark family tree lists Benedict Royce as Benedict Rogers. This was confirmed to be an error. In fact, according to Elio Garcia, co-author of The World of Ice & Fire, Martin mistakenly called Royce "Benedict Vance" in earlier notes. Although the mistake was corrected at the time, Royce was accidentally spelled Rogers later on.^[4]"

Same as I already wrote above - Rogers is a homage to Roger Zelazny. Benedict Royce was supposed to be Rogers, though GRRM already added a homage to Zelazny by adding Harrold Rogers into the Stark family tree. And Benedict Vance is a homage to Jack Vance.

"House Vance is a reference by George R. R. Martin to the author Jack Vance, who was one of Martin's favorite authors. The dragons in their sigil refer to Vance's The Dragon Masters and the towers to his The Last Castle. Atranta is a reference by Martin to a land in Vance's Bad Ronald.^[20]"

GRRM just made a mistake by confusing those two homages, to Roger Zelazny and Jack Vance, and adding into the Stark-family tree the same homage twice.)

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Look at the family tree of Starks:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark#Family_tree

300 years of their family's history, 31 marriages, out of them 8 not with Northerners.

Two with The Vale - ex-King Torrhen Stark's daughter married with Ronnel Arryn; and Beron Stark married with Lorra Royce. Three with Riverlands - Cregan Stark with Alysanne Blackwood, Willam with Melantha Blackwood, and Eddard with Catelyn Tully. Two with Westerlands - Sansa with Tyrion Lannister, and Robb with Jeyne Westerling. One with Stormlands - Branda Stark with Harrold Rogers.

The last three doesn't count - because Starks haven't chosen Sansa's husband nor Robb's wife, and Harrold Rogers is a homage to this -

"The house is an homage to Roger Zelazny, a late colleague of George R. R. Martin.^[5] Zelazny's most famous series is The Chronicles of Amber, which includes nine princes. The unicorns and the maze that feature in the coat of arms of House Rogers are mentioned in Zelazny's series."

Also that first marriage with an Arryn, doesn't count. Because it wasn't Torrhen Stark, who decided to marry his daughter to a guy outside of The North. It was Queen Rhaenys Targaryen who arranged that marriage. Furthermore, that Stark-girl and her husband died before they had children, so they are not a part of the Stark-bloodline.

Both Cregan's marriage with Alysanne Blackwood and Ned's with Catelyn Tully was a neccessity, a result of war/postwar negotiations.

So the only two not-Northern brides that are left are Melantha Blackwood and Lorra Royce.

Was there some war going on at the time of their weddings? Were those unions a necessity like Ned's wedding with Cat, or Cregan's with Alysanne, or were those Starks forced or tricked into marrying out of The North, like it was in case with Sansa and Robb? No, and no. No war, and no special circumstances given in the World book for those two marriages.

Thus Lorra and Melantha doesn't fit into the usual pattern of marriages present in the family tree of Starks. Though, are they, really? Not if Lorra is Sarra Stark's daughter, and if Melantha is also a partial Stark by blood.

I will give you an unquestionable prove when GRRM will release second volume of Fire&Blood. I'll quote you that part of the family tree of Starks, in which there will be written that Sarra married with a Royce and Lorra was their daughter, and that Mariah married with a Blackwood, and that Melissa Blackwood was her daughter, and Melanthat Blackwood was her great granddaughter.

Νοthing of theese proves of those

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Those Starks married with women out of the North, because those women possibly were Starks by blood.

Lorra Royce was Sarra Stark's daughter.

Arya Flint was Raya Stark's daughter.

Lysara Karstark was Alys Stark's daughter.

Melantha Blackwood was daughter of Mya River's, granddaughter of Melissa Blackwood, and great granddaughter of Mariah Stark.

Those four girls - Sarra, Raya, Alys and Mariah were Cregan Stark's daughters, born by Alysanne Blackwood.

So, besides Cregan's marriage with Alysanne, and then Ned's marriage with Cat, Robb's with Jeyne Westerling, and possibly Lyanna's with Rhaegar, all other Starks ALWAYS married only with other Northerners. Those supposedly Royce and Blackwood brides were actually half-Starks by blood, so they don't count.

 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Νοthing of theese proves of those

Yes, it does, as this fanfiction will demonstrate: ...

Seriously though, just leave it be.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

14 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, it does, as this fanfiction will demonstrate: ...

It is known. I am all for crazy theories, conspiracies and confused family trees as long as they can be supported by clues in the text.

[Megorova]

1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It is known. I am for crazy theories, conspiracies and confused family trees as long as they can be supported by clues in the text.

But they are supported by clues in the text. They do. Really. You just don't see it. Because you should look not on this small piece of a jigsaw puzzle that is just one element of ASOIAF, but at the bigger picture. Just think about what patterns GRRM is using in his books. Patterns like trinities, "ae" and "e...y" in nearly all Valyrian names, similar names for family members from the same House (just look at how many Brans, Bens, and Lyas are there in the House Stark), repetition of events from the past, parallels of the current characters to historical characters, etc.

Lorra Royce is a Stark by blood and she is Sarra Stark's daughter, because of five reasons:

1. Aside from special circumstances Starks don't marry with not-Northerners;

Cregan+Alysanne, Ned+Cat, Sansa+Tyrion, Robb+Jeyne, Torrhen's daughter+Arryn are evidences of that.

(While Benedict Royce+Jocelyn and Harrold Rogers+Branda are homages to Roger Zelazny.)

2. Lorra and Sarra have similar names, with "rra" in it;

3. Lorra is from one generation after Sarra's, thus based on this fact, she could be Sarra's daughter;

4. Lorra's husband was Beron Stark, son of Brandon Stark, who was Sarra's yonger brother. Beron is Sarra's nephew, so Sarra's daughter is from the same generation as Beron.

They were first cousins, and there were other cases amongst Starks, when they married with their cousins - Cregan+Lynara, Rickard+Lyarra.

One of the most frequently used in ASOIAF patterns is a trinity. Thus, in addition to Cregan and Rickard, there could be one more Stark who married with his cousin. And Beron is that guy, because his wife, Lorra, is also his aunt's daughter and thus - his cousin.

5. Amongst Starks there was two guys who got married with their half-nieces - 1. Jonnel Stark married with Sansa Stark, whose father was Jonnel's older brother, Rickon Stark; 2. Jonnel's other brother, Edric, also married with Rickon's daughter - with Serena Stark, Sansa's sister.

There could be a third Stark that also married with his half-niece, same as Jonnel and Edric.

And there is - that third guy is their brother, Brandon Stark, who got married with his half-niece - Alys Karstark. Alys Karstark was a daughter of Alys Stark, Brandon's older sister.

 

Evidences are there, in the Starks' family tree - three marriages between cousins, three marriages between uncles and their half-nieces, similarity in names (both have "rra" in them), corresponding number of generations between assumed mother and daughter, and the general pattern of Stark-marriages in a 300 years of their family's history <- You still disagree that all that COULD be viewed as an evidence/clues in the text?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

You still disagree that all that COULD be viewed as an evidence/clues in the text?

Yes. Yes I do. Text proofs, foreshadowings and quotes are clues.