War Won't Save The World

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, Jay21 said:

It's been a long time since I read it but I think that Cantuse posited that Lightbringer is in fact a silver harp (I think he posited that Dragon Steel was actually silver not V steel too) and music was the common language used to communicate with the Others.  I think there's some issues there, but the basic premise that a means of communication rather than a sword was instrumental to peace makes a lot of sense.

That sounds amazing, do you know where I can find it?

[FictionIsntReal]

6 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

So yeah, Martin suddenly deciding to go back on all of this and having humanity be saved by an epic war seems like a weird notion.

I think you misunderstand the way in which Martin is "anti-war". He's not a thoroughgoing pacifist. He was a conscientious objector during Vietnam, but has said that he would regard WW2 as a just war he'd be willing to support. And that was a war fought between humans, unlike the explicitly non-human (and anti-life, per the pitch letter) Others.

Quote

IMNSHO the Others have this name for this very reason, George is talking about discrimination with just a simple name.

The way to subvert that would be to show that the supposed "Others" aren't as they are imagined to be, but GRRM hasn't done anything like that even though he's supposed to be most of the way through the series. They have been created as an inhuman force against all humanity so that the differences within humanity pale in comparison. The fighting for political power that most of the series has been dedicated to is supposed to be regarded as unfortunate because it has weakened the capacity to fight an actual threat. Some have described the Others/Long Night as a metaphor for global warming, and while it's not so simple as that GRRM has indicated that's a valid view. This is not Starship Troopers, where the reader is supposed to ponder a shared morality eventually encompassing any possible enemy. It's fantasy.

Quote

I read many of George's other stories, tho I have many to go, in none of them have I found a race of genetically evil beings, that doesn't seem like GRRM to me.

They don't have genes. They're not biological organisms, like living beings.

Quote

Ned 'others' the Lannisters, he views them as less moral, less honorable.

He's right. His derivation of fantasy genetics supposedly proving that Cersei's children must be fathered by her twin brother somehow turns out to be right, regardless of how implausible a priori that is or how real genetics don't work that way.

Quote

This makes him believe anything Littlefinger says to him, which ends up facilitating the war.

He was wrong to believe that Littlefinger would support him (even after Ned rejected LF's plan to temporarily accept Joffrey before arranging to make Renly king). That has no dependence on his negative view of the Lannisters. He was wrong to believe that Cersei would flee with her children after Ned gave her the chance. He underestimated how much she valued power even over the risk to her children. So he arguably thought too highly of her. The one lie LF told about the Lannisters was that the dagger belonged to Tyrion, but even there he was actually right that the Lannisters tried to kill Bran since it was Jaime who threw him out the window to silence him.

Quote

She uses this reasoning to burn people alive. Mel, quite literally, others anyone who doesn't worship R'hlor, then she burns them.

The problem isn't that she believes in a threat to humanity, or even the existence of R'hllor. Her prophecies typically contain real information, she just misinterprets them. Mel can have the right goal but go about it the wrong way.

Quote

The others killed a few black brothers, that's true

They killed a LOT at the Fist, in addition to the rangers in the prologue and ones who went with Benjen.

Quote

we see a lot of humans do far worse things, like Ramsay and the slavers

Ramsay can be somewhat restrained by an authority like Roose. Even the slavers are willing to sell all their slaves, and there was a peace arranged with Dany before things got fouled up. There's no authority that can constrain the others, and you can't even talk to them either. They're just going to turn the living into wights, and laugh about it.

Quote

bringing their extinction would be completely wrong and evil

The first Long Night didn't cause their extinction. This one might not either. They might remain a lurking threat for thousands more years, with the characters transforming into legends like the Last Hero.

Quote

But for war to be the answer, there must be a complete extermination, or else, in a couple thousand years, the conflict will start again and the whole series will be pointless.

Kicking the can down the road is not pointless. "If we are lucky we will have the choice to kick-the-can-down the-road." Everyone dies eventually and the sun will eventually burn out. But we'd like to live, if we can.

Quote

So what's next? The other group he was raised to fear and hate are the Others. If Jon's arc follows this path, it seems like he should be learning to empathize with the Others, realize that they aren't all evil

Jon grew up in a world where the Others were long gone, and regarded as possibly mythical by the maesters that taught his family. Even Ned simply executed the one survivor of the attack in the prologue. That the Others exist and the threat is real is the surprise revelation.
The story isn't just about Jon either. Dany's dragons exist to fight the ice. Sansa will presumably be ensuring people can still be fed (with all the grain LF has been squirrelling away) during that war.

Quote

and maybe try to cut a deal

This isn't Kelly's Heroes either. The wildlings were a genuine threat under Mance Rayder, but they were only able to be incorporated after Stannis thoroughly defeated Mance's host (and even afterward the Weeper is still an implacably hostile enemy). "The best [almost any popular story] can offer is that peace and compromise can help you crush your enemies into smoldering ruins".

Quote

The all evil race and the light vs darkness battle that saved humanity are HUGE tropes of fantasy, and George, being a huge anti-war hippie, should be very interested in deconstructing those, in fact, he already did.

He was explicit that one of the ways he deconstructed common good vs bad tropes was by making the Nights Watch wear black. They're the good guys (as an organization), even if they contain a lot of bad people. Yoren is also aesthetically disappointing to those who heard of a romanticized version of the watch. War doesn't necessarily smell good, and neither does Yoren.

Quote

Ned was going to be sent to the Wall, but oh no, subversion of expectations, Robb was going to take Moat Cailin, but oh no, Red Wedding, this happens over and over throughout the story

All of those are examples where bad things happen to the heroes because the baddies turn out to be extra bad/devious.

Quote

Going from that to a war in which we only see the perspective of one side, a war with no moral complexity in which there are clear good guys fighting monsters, seems boring to me. Really boring, and completely un-GRRM.

That actually describes much of the existing fighting between humans. Stannis is clearly the good guy against the Boltons/Freys. The slaver armies attacking Meereen are even thinner characters, to the point where it's hard to take them seriously even as a threat. The Brotherhood Without Banners may have become morally ambiguous, but Beric was an idealized fantasy good guy who even gave the baddies (and the Brave Companions clearly qualify as that) trials.

Quote

Also, that war would either need to be a really short one, and therefore would feel really disappointing, or it'll need to be as long as the WOT5K, which would turn it into a slog, as, again, it would just be a lesser version of it.

Here I won't necessarily disagree with you. The show did the short version, and I think they were condensing where GRRM was ultimately heading rather than embracing exactly the conclusion he wanted to reject. GRRM intended for the Westerosi civil war to be just the first book, then the Dothraki invasion to be the second, and war with the others to be the third/final one. The civil war has now dominated most of the text across five books and the Dothraki invasion still hasn't occurred. I think GRRM is having trouble wrapping things up and will likely never finish the series. But the logical extrapolation is that (if he ever gets to it) the new War for the Dawn would be really long. Here's an attempt to plot that out (written by an actual pacifist!).

Quote

That poem is an anti-war poem

I hadn't heard that.

Quote

Robert Frost has another poem called 'The Mending Wall' in which he argues walls bring more harm than good to society

Quote

it can also end with a different peace pact, dividing lands between both sides maybe

Might they be divided with... a Wall? Of just the sort you claim is supposed to be bad?

Quote

maybe, it could end with humans and others realizing they are being manipulated into war by another group

What other group!? Who was hiding in the background of the prologue, causing the Others to kill Waymar and Will?

6 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, my thinking is that the COTF are driving the Others and Humans into war to get rid of both and live happily ever after in Westeros. But yeah, after millenia of waring the Others have many reasons for wanting to kill humanity.

There hasn't been any war for the past few thousand years. There was an attack out of nowhere. And humans already made peace with the COTF so that they could both oppose the Others. The series isn't going to end with the revelation that actually the Andals destroying the weirwoods was good and they should just kill all the Children.

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Maybe even more damning he gives Bran opposite advice from what Ned and Nan had raised him to believe.

He didn't say never to be afraid of ANYTHING. He's talking about not being afraid of the literal dark.

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

But one thing is seeing a specific war as a necessary evil and another is making a cliche 'glorious war to save humanity' the point of your series.

If some wars are justified, why can't a way tailor-made for justification actually be justified too?

Quote

And for it to be justified we would need to know what the Others want, and it has to be terrible

The pitch letter says what they want.

[SeanF]

War is not glorious, but it may be necessary.

I’m sure that the Others have some very genuine grievances against human beings.  It would certainly be against the spirit of the story, if they did not.  They may be extremely long-lived beings, who remember their loved ones who suffered at human hands, as if it were yesterday.

Both I and @Lord Varyshave referenced the Norns in Memory, Sorrow, Thorn, as the inspiration for the Others, and one definitely gets to see where they are coming from.  At the same time, they really do mean ill to humans.

I’d also reference @The Marquis de Leech‘s great question “Why do people serve the Dark Lord?”  A close reading of LOTR, especially the Appendices, reveals that the Haradrim and Dunlendings also have very real grievances against the Numenoreans and Rohirrim respectively.  Even people as bad as the Nazis, in real life, could exploit the genuine grievances of many Eastern Europeans, to their advantage.

So, I doubt if the Others are just mindless evil.  But, they are still very dangerous.  Raising the dead for their own purposes is sufficient confirmation.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

War is not glorious, but it may be necessary.

I’m sure that the Others have some very genuine grievances against human beings.  It would certainly be against the spirit of the story, if they did not.  They may be extremely long-lived beings, who remember their loved ones who suffered at human hands, as if it were yesterday.

Both I and @Lord Varyshave referenced the Norns in Memory, Sorrow, Thorn, as the inspiration for the Others, and one definitely gets to see where they are coming from.  At the same time, they really do mean ill to humans.

I’d also reference @The Marquis de Leech‘s great question “Why do people serve the Dark Lord?”  A close reading of LOTR, especially the Appendices, reveals that the Haradrim and Dunlendings also have very real grievances against the Numenoreans and Rohirrim respectively.  Even people as bad as the Nazis, in real life, could exploit the genuine grievances of many Eastern Europeans, to their advantage.

So, I doubt if the Others are just mindless evil.  But, they are still very dangerous.  Raising the dead for their own purposes is sufficient confirmation.

I actually don't think that a proper war can be all that defeats the Others in the end. They are set up as an enemy who is pretty much impossible to defeat in a conventional way. The way things are going a single surviving Other would be enough to start the cycle of violence again, and the way the show did it - there being a Lich King Other who controlled all the Others and various Others controlling a batch of wights - is so ridiculously childish George is not likely to do it.

So there will have to be some kind of confrontation/talk/whatever at the Heart of Winter which might also involve some kind of fight but which doesn't involve gigantic armies on either side.

The idea that just a huge battle can resolve this issue isn't very likely.

As for conceptual aspects - we can say that the kind of war fought for aristocratic reasons of vengeance, honor, payback, power, etc. are all wrong to various degrees. The War of the Five Kings serves little to no purpose but to satisfy the pompous egos of various pampered noblemen.

However, the war against the Others - the defense against them - won't be wrong. And while the war for a Targaryen restoration - with either Viserys III, Daenerys, or Aegon starting it - wouldn't be better than the War of the Five Kings in principle ... but it might be turned on its head if it coincides with the attack of the Others because the fresh troops can then be used to ally with their former Westerosi enemies and fight the true enemy.

It is also pretty obvious that this is also the main point of the dragons in the story.

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually don't think that a proper war can be all that defeats the Others in the end. They are set up as an enemy who is pretty much impossible to defeat in a conventional way. The way things are going a single surviving Other would be enough to start the cycle of violence again, and the way the show did it - there being a Lich King Other who controlled all the Others and various Others controlling a batch of wights - is so ridiculously childish George is not likely to do it.

So there will have to be some kind of confrontation/talk/whatever at the Heart of Winter which might also involve some kind of fight but which doesn't involve gigantic armies on either side.

The idea that just a huge battle can resolve this issue isn't very likely.

As for conceptual aspects - we can say that the kind of war fought for aristocratic reasons of vengeance, honor, payback, power, etc. are all wrong to various degrees. The War of the Five Kings serves little to no purpose but to satisfy the pompous egos of various pampered noblemen.

However, the war against the Others - the defense against them - won't be wrong. And while the war for a Targaryen restoration - with either Viserys III, Daenerys, or Aegon starting it - wouldn't be better than the War of the Five Kings in principle ... but it might be turned on its head if it coincides with the attack of the Others because the fresh troops can then be used to ally with their former Westerosi enemies and fight the true enemy.

It is also pretty obvious that this is also the main point of the dragons in the story.

Of one thing I am 100% certain;  this conflict won't be ended by Arya springing out of a tree on top of the Great Other.

[Jay21]

13 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

That sounds amazing, do you know where I can find it?

 Dragonsilver: The True Nature and Purpose of Lightbringer | Meditations on A Song of Ice and Fire (wordpress.com)

[CamiloRP]

I know how this goes, an I'm not interested in pending the next few weeks writing giant ass replies every day. I will explain myself once tho.

 

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think you misunderstand the way in which Martin is "anti-war". He's not a thoroughgoing pacifist. He was a conscientious objector during Vietnam, but has said that he would regard WW2 as a just war he'd be willing to support. And that was a war fought between humans, unlike the explicitly non-human (and anti-life, per the pitch letter) Others.

I don't, I already replied to this, he thinks some war are justified yes, but that not the same as writing a series that ends with war saving the world, as even tho he thinks some wars are justified, he doesn't think war will save the world.

 

Quote

The way to subvert that would be to show that the supposed "Others" aren't as they are imagined to be, but GRRM hasn't done anything like that even though he's supposed to be most of the way through the series. They have been created as an inhuman force against all humanity so that the differences within humanity pale in comparison.

 He still has two books, and the Others have barely showed up in the previous five. So either way he hasn't done much for their portrayal either way, most of what we know from them comes from thousand year old stories written down bu the biased humans thousands of years after the fact. And the series hammers down that point.

 

Quote

The fighting for political power that most of the series has been dedicated to is supposed to be regarded as unfortunate because it has weakened the capacity to fight an actual threat.

That's what you and many others think, maybe what George wants us to think, and maybe even the point of the story. But it isn't a certainty.

 

Quote

They don't have genes. They're not biological organisms, like living beings.

It's a figure of speech, tho you don't know wether they have genes or not. what I meant is that the Others being a race that's all bad would be: a) cliche b) something he never wrote before and c) a persistent and problematic aspect of fantasy that has racist undertones.

 

Quote

He was wrong to believe that Littlefinger would support him (even after Ned rejected LF's plan to temporarily accept Joffrey before arranging to make Renly king). That has no dependence on his negative view of the Lannisters. He was wrong to believe that Cersei would flee with her children after Ned gave her the chance. He underestimated how much she valued power even over the risk to her children. So he arguably thought too highly of her. The one lie LF told about the Lannisters was that the dagger belonged to Tyrion, but even there he was actually right that the Lannisters tried to kill Bran since it was Jaime who threw him out the window to silence him.

Ned spends most of his time in KL concerned about the Lannisters, them sending the catspaw after Bran is the biggest reason he can't make peace with them when LF offers. And he doesn't even question them sending the catspaw once LF says they did, because he's biased, and he already knows they are guilty.

 

Quote

The problem isn't that she believes in a threat to humanity, or even the existence of R'hllor. Her prophecies typically contain real information, she just misinterprets them. Mel can have the right goal but go about it the wrong way.

I wasn't talking about visions or any of that tho. I was talking about Mel literally and figuratively othering people, which she does, and it causes her to burn innocent people alive.

 

Quote

They killed a LOT at the Fist, in addition to the rangers in the prologue and ones who went with Benjen.

a couple hundreds, the Tywin killed more people by his word alone, same thing with Robert, Robb, and any other military commander in the series. In Aastapor they kill four people for every unsullied they 'make' and lets not talk about all the rape and torture. I'm not excusing the Others murdering people tho, but I don't think their actions make them completely evil.

 

Quote

Ramsay can be somewhat restrained by an authority like Roose. Even the slavers are willing to sell all their slaves, and there was a peace arranged with Dany before things got fouled up. There's no authority that can constrain the others, and you can't even talk to them either. They're just going to turn the living into wights, and laugh about it.

The humans can't talk to the Grouns in ITHOTW either, yet their are able to communicate in the end and realize they shouldn't be fighting. Also, everything you say here can be said of the Humans by the Others, or of any two groups of people that are in war and don't know each other's language.

 

Quote

The first Long Night didn't cause their extinction. This one might not either. They might remain a lurking threat for thousands more years, with the characters transforming into legends like the Last Hero.

And I acknowledged that possibility, and you even replied to it.

 

Quote

Kicking the can down the road is not pointless. "If we are lucky we will have the choice to kick-the-can-down the-road." Everyone dies eventually and the sun will eventually burn out. But we'd like to live, if we can.

There needs to be a reason why we are reading this story tho, instead of the long night or the one that comes eight thousand years after this one. 

 

Quote

Jon grew up in a world where the Others were long gone, and regarded as possibly mythical by the maesters that taught his family. Even Ned simply executed the one survivor of the attack in the prologue.

He's still been raised to fear them anywhay, they where the monsters in his bedtime stories, everything he knows about them is that they are evil monsters, is the only truth we are presented with. Shouldn't that be subverted?

 

Quote

That the Others exist and the threat is real is the surprise revelation.

No it isn't, we actually know that before we know Jon Snow is real. The information we have on the Others has remained constant since the first chapter of the series: they are inhuman, they are evil, they wan't to kill humanity, we will fight them for our survival. 

George being George I espect at least some of this to be turn on it's head. Specially given how much of a problematic fantasy trope it is.

 

Quote

The story isn't just about Jon either. Dany's dragons exist to fight the ice. Sansa will presumably be ensuring people can still be fed (with all the grain LF has been squirrelling away) during that war.

Never said it was only his story, yet his is the most connected to the Others. The things about Dany and Sansa are guesses. They might be the case, but you don't know. And for destruction purposes fire is equal to ice.

 

Quote

He was explicit that one of the ways he deconstructed common good vs bad tropes was by making the Nights Watch wear black. They're the good guys (as an organization), even if they contain a lot of bad people. Yoren is also aesthetically disappointing to those who heard of a romanticized version of the watch. War doesn't necessarily smell good, and neither does Yoren.

'this time the good guys wear black' is at most a weak commentary, and it's no deconstruction as there still is a good vs bad fight.

 

Quote

That actually describes much of the existing fighting between humans. Stannis is clearly the good guy against the Boltons/Freys. The slaver armies attacking Meereen are even thinner characters, to the point where it's hard to take them seriously even as a threat. The Brotherhood Without Banners may have become morally ambiguous, but Beric was an idealized fantasy good guy who even gave the baddies (and the Brave Companions clearly qualify as that) trials.

But we see and understand the POVs of the Freys, Slavers and the people the BWB fight, in some cases we are in their heads. And still those aren't the main battles, the main battle is Stannis vs the Lannisters, the Freys and Boltons are henchmen, same with the BWB and their enemies. In general, we have the POV of both sides. We know their perspective and their goals. Something we won't have with the Others, making it worse.

In the case of Dany and the Slavers the story is much more about negotiation and inner conflict that it is about war, and even in the case of war we spend time in the master's camp and know their plans to an extent.

 

Quote

Here I won't necessarily disagree with you. The show did the short version, and I think they were condensing where GRRM was ultimately heading rather than embracing exactly the conclusion he wanted to reject. GRRM intended for the Westerosi civil war to be just the first book, then the Dothraki invasion to be the second, and war with the others to be the third/final one. The civil war has now dominated most of the text across five books and the Dothraki invasion still hasn't occurred. I think GRRM is having trouble wrapping things up and will likely never finish the series. But the logical extrapolation is that (if he ever gets to it) the new War for the Dawn would be really long. Here's an attempt to plot that out (written by an actual pacifist!).

Didn't know you were a pacifist. Anyhow, the Battle For Dawn lasting as long as the WOT5K would be dense and boring for me, imagine the WOT5K, now take out all non-Stark POVs, take all political moves, negotiation, etc. Take out the hostages, the alliances, hell, make every non Stark speak an imaginary language no one understands. 

 

Quote

Might they be divided with... a Wall? Of just the sort you claim is supposed to be bad?

Or just borders? like they did with the COTF? you know? It depends on what the Others want.

 

Quote

What other group!? Who was hiding in the background of the prologue, causing the Others to kill Waymar and Will?

A telepathic group, able to send visions and dreams convincing people the 'other' needs to be exterminated. Perhaps the Three Eyed Crow. My money is on the COTF.

 

Quote

There hasn't been any war for the past few thousand years. There was an attack out of nowhere. And humans already made peace with the COTF so that they could both oppose the Others.

The peace was completely unfair for the Children, the humans get much more than then, and the humans even break the pact by taking the deep wood as well. Bran is angry about what humans did to the COTF, so they should be too.

 

Quote

The series isn't going to end with the revelation that actually the Andals destroying the weirwoods was good and they should just kill all the Children.

It won't if the Andals doing it is what caused the Children to do all of this.

 

Quote

If some wars are justified, why can't a way tailor-made for justification actually be justified too?

Yes, but it'd still leave a message of 'war saving humanity' which is something GRRM does not agree with and has gone to great lengths to argue against in the past. 

 

Quote

The pitch letter says what they want.

I've been working in the publication industry for five years now. You never put the twist in the pitch letter. 

[CamiloRP]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

War is not glorious, but it may be necessary.

I’m sure that the Others have some very genuine grievances against human beings.  It would certainly be against the spirit of the story, if they did not.  They may be extremely long-lived beings, who remember their loved ones who suffered at human hands, as if it were yesterday.

Both I and @Lord Varyshave referenced the Norns in Memory, Sorrow, Thorn, as the inspiration for the Others, and one definitely gets to see where they are coming from.  At the same time, they really do mean ill to humans.

I’d also reference @The Marquis de Leech‘s great question “Why do people serve the Dark Lord?”  A close reading of LOTR, especially the Appendices, reveals that the Haradrim and Dunlendings also have very real grievances against the Numenoreans and Rohirrim respectively.  Even people as bad as the Nazis, in real life, could exploit the genuine grievances of many Eastern Europeans, to their advantage.

So, I doubt if the Others are just mindless evil.  But, they are still very dangerous.  Raising the dead for their own purposes is sufficient confirmation.

I agree with all of this but the last part. I don't think raising the dead is evil or anything like that, they're already dead, they don't care. And GRRM has written about good guys who raise the dead and use them as slaves.

[CamiloRP]

3 hours ago, Jay21 said:

 Dragonsilver: The True Nature and Purpose of Lightbringer | Meditations on A Song of Ice and Fire (wordpress.com)

Thanks!

[Daeron the Daring]

@CamiloRP, the main problem with your idea is that it's slightly built up on something wrong.

The others appeared where they didn't before. How were they insulted, so that it would make humans the guilty ones?

The freefolk beyond the Wall reached a point when they couldn't stand the threat of the Others anymore, and decided to put everything on crossing the wall.

We've seen what happened with Ser Waymar and the other companion of Gared. We've also seen what happened at the Fist od the First Men. We've also seen how the raised dead ranger went straight for Jeor Mormont. 

Anything they want, they seem to have to cross the Wall and break humanity to get it. That, however, still doesn't make them the pure and ethernal evil some imagine them here.

First of all, the First Men were pretty primitive, not as advanced as the Andals. It is said that the Children and the First Men were keeping their pact until the Andals came. They also gained the ability of skinchanging and greenseeing some way (The hell not half human, half children babies). Why would they manipulate the white walkers? Why not the humans then? They are clearly not the manipulative third side. They'll be some kind of last-minute backup, if you ask me.

Stating this, let's talk about the Night's King a little bit. It is said that he fell in love with a female white walker, and married her too. By giving her his seed, he gave her her soul too. It doesn't sound that bad, does it? I mean, giving your soul to your loved one. Notice that he gave her his seed to. Then we are told that he'd done terrible things in his 13 years of reigning. But I'll ask you, did he? He was a sorcerer, and if his 'corpse' queen was really just a white walker, wouldn't Joramun and the King of Winter, a Stark, would consider it a threat? Wouldn't they consider the Night's King a dead men if his body was just simply cold? Shouldn't we expect people, even Joramun and the Stark from Winterfell to misjudge his situation? I think yes. Given that after they put him down, they were destroying every existence of his existence, couldn't we get the false picture of him? I do actually think he was a positive character, and a Stark too (for reasons neither I am clear about), but people misjudged him. I know there's no guarantee that it was the good part (if there ever was a good part, or a bad one, not just neutral and equal) about him that got destroyed, but take into consideration that the current Stark King and Joramun too were against him. This does not put them into thr negative category of characters, tho, but given that men didn't really like the Night's King in general (because their leaders didn't), it's pretty easy to believe in something bad about someone you don't really like. Approaching the Night's King from this direction, doesn't he sound like a fusion of Ice (what people called death in him) and Fire (life)? Doesn't he parallel Jon someway (given that he's got assasinated and will be ressurected)? Isn't it Jon who's about to bring balance and peace and whatever else he has to?  Couldn't we imagine the Night's King doing some way the same thing? And note that he was able to give her queen his seed too.

Either way, I think war between the living and the dead is inevitable, it's like God (George) said it'll happen, so it will. But it won't be the solution of oue problem, nor wiping out the White Walkers will be, I think. That means, we gotta get a solution to our problems, someway. That'll be TPTWP.

On what purpose TPTWP will have, I don't know. I am imagining him/her more like the tales about the Last Hero and the simple prophecy about him (TPTWP) that doesn't include the bullshit the Faith of R'hllor puts to it, given that R'hllor simply has nothing to do with Westeros, because it's a territory of the Old Gods and the weirwoods, or any magical supernatural thingy controlling the continent.

[Mourning Star]

34 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

First of all, the First Men were pretty primitive, not as advanced as the Andals.

This is almost certainly wrong. Or, if you prefer, the Starks were not primitive First Men.

A few details about Winterfell bring this into stark relief (sorry couldn't help it!).

The kings of winter are buried with iron sword, and the Others are said to have hated iron.

And yet, common wisdom in Westeros is that ironworking was brought to Westeros by the Andals.

Not only that, but the first keep of Winterfell is particularly interesting for two reasons.

It is round, and it is covered in gargoyles. Neither of which fit with the traditional picture of the First Men.

Quote

All were square. Drum towers and half-moons held up better against catapults, since thrown stones were more apt to deflect off a curved wall, but Raventree predated that particular bit of builder's wisdom.

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

The oldest of these—a long-abandoned tower, round and squat and covered with gargoyles—has become known as the First Keep. Some take this to mean that it was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet has definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towers and keeps. Round towers came sometime later.

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: Winterfell

Perhaps Winterfell and the Starks were not just another kingdom of primitive First Men. Stormsend and the Hightower are both also said to have been built by Bran the Builder, and are also round. It is also often overlooked that the order of Maesters appears to have been founded at the same time as the Night's Watch, and even shares similar vows.

You also speculated about the Night's King, which is always fun!

The Night's King is said to have been the 13th lord commander, but the list of lord commanders is messed up and the numbering doesn't work out according to Sam.

The Last Hero had 12 companions he lost on the way to finding the Children of the Forrest after the armies of men had failed.

I would suggest the numbering confusion comes because these twelve companions are listed before the Night's King as the first members/commanders of the Night's Watch.

I would also suggest that Nissa Nissa from the tale of Azhor Ahai became the corpse bride of the Night's King.

The Last Hero, Azhor Ahai, and the Night's King were the same man.

He forged a flaming sword in the heart of his wife to wage a war against the Others, and sought out the Children to learn their language/magic. But power can be used for good or ill, and he used that magic to bring his Nissa Nissa back and to rule for 13 years (a generation) from the Nightfort during what came to be known as the Long Night.

I would also suggest that while the Others may bring winter and darkness with them, the Long Night was caused by a man, the Night's King, and not the Others themselves.

Finally, I'd suggest that Joramun, who blew the horn of winter and woke giants from the earth, is actually the name of an Other king beyond the wall, and that the Night's king was cast down by an alliance between his own brother, the Stark in Winterfell, and Joramun.

The stories and myths have been twisted as they have been passed down.

Much like how stories are told about King's Guard long before Aegon's Conquest (or knights for that matter). The explanation for Symeon Star eyes (who has sapphire eyes and fought with a double bladed sword, aka a sword with no hilt, sorcery) and Merwyn of the Mirror Shield (who slew a dragon behind his magic active camo) is that they were Others in Westeros before the wall was built.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The kings of winter are buried with iron sword, and the Others are said to have hated iron.

The recent ones? Sure. The older ones we can't know, time consumes those of only a few hundred years old ones too.

 

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

and the Others are said to have hated iron.

We don't really know when they dissapeared, given that the Children were giving dragonglass blades to the Night's Watch for a very-very long time. They might hate iron, just as they might hate every kind of metal. This does not confirm that First Men were able to work iron. Or Old Nan might have mistaken there, given how old she is.

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Not only that, but the first keep of Winterfell is particularly interesting for two reasons.

It is round, and it is covered in gargoyles. Neither of which fit with the traditional picture of the First Men

Yep, and the entire keep changed nothing for 8 thousand years, right?

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Perhaps Winterfell and the Starks were not just another kingdom of primitive First Men. Stormsend and the Hightower are both also said to have been built by Bran the Builder, and are also round

The Hightower is said to have an ancient lower level, and it was built higher and higher as time passed. Also, one can imagine the walls of Storm's end contain any 8000 years old bricks.

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

is also often overlooked that the order of Maesters appears to have been founded at the same time as the Night's Watch, and even shares similar vows.

And they were still unable to give us any reliable picture about those 4 thousands of years before the Andals came, according to you. Altough they existed.

Don't get involved into this on this thread, dude, it wasn't even the main point of my comment (not at all). I just said it as a reason for the First Men and Children being able to live together, altough separated.

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The Night's King is said to have been the 13th lord commander, but the list of lord commanders is messed up and the numbering doesn't work out according to Sam.

The Last Hero had 12 companions he lost on the way to finding the Children of the Forrest after the armies of men had failed.

Sounds pretty good, honestly. Fits into my suggestion pretty well.

 

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

would suggest the numbering confusion comes because these twelve companions are listed before the Night's King as the first members/commanders of the Night's Watch.

There's no confusion regarding the numbering of LC of the NW. It's just the latest six hundred and something that we know their names of. The ones who came before them we don't. Except for a very few, like the Night's King.

 

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The Last Hero, Azhor Ahai, and the Night's King were the same man.

Let's say it might be. The Daynes surely have an impact on TPTWP, someway.

 

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

would also suggest that Nissa Nissa from the tale of Azhor Ahai became the corpse bride of the Night's King.

The Last Hero, Azhor Ahai, and the Night's King were the same man.

He forged a flaming sword in the heart of his wife to wage a war against the Others, and sought out the Children to learn their language/magic. But power can be used for good or ill, and he used that magic to bring his Nissa Nissa back and to rule for 13 years (a generation) from the Nightfort during what came to be known as the Long Night.

I would also suggest that while the Others may bring winter and darkness with them, the Long Night was caused by a man, the Night's King, and not the Others themselves.

As I said im my earlier comment, I do not like confusing AA with the Last Hero or TPTWP. It's just so different, and isn't even originated from Westeros. On the other hand The Last Hero is clearly the Westerosi TPTWP, and the PTWP is pretty much can be found in an isolated form from any kind of faith.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Of one thing I am 100% certain;  this conflict won't be ended by Arya springing out of a tree on top of the Great Other.

Well, it is not just that, it is also that idea that the Others are generally video game villains, basically.

There are two good theories as to how the Others will turn out to work in the end - one is the 'mindless magical system spun out of control' idea. Something that's based on the premise the Children created the Others but no longer control them and lack the power to stop them.

This idea has them mainly as magical power going through the motions and continuing a war/eradication program nobody cares about anymore.

This is something that is reminiscent of some of George's earlier SF works ... but it lacks the human element, basically dehumanizes the Others and turns them into mindless robots enacting a plan they neither made themselves nor really care about it. It basically lowers the stakes and would turn the entire Others plot into some anti-demon/Dark Lord crusade straight from Tolkien or Tolkien pastiches ... and that's not why I'm expecting or looking forward to.

The other idea I suggested is that there is some guiding force behind the Others, something that directs their actions, made the plan they are enacting, and knows and understands perfectly well why they are doing what they do. And this being would be intimately connected with the Children of the Forest, and would remember - as if it was yesterday! - what the First Men of old did to the Children - all the ugly little details about the wars they fought, the cruelty that came with it, and the genocide the First Men were apparently pushing for.

The best guess as to who or what such a being could be is a greenseer of the Children of the Forest beneath the frozen ice in the Heart of Winter. This is then also the parallel to Tad Williams's Osten Ard saga which has the immortal Elf-Queen Utuk'ku enact similar mad plans out of a similar desire for revenge and payback ... and a desire for complete annihilation.

George could also play around with various hive mind ideas - there are hints that the greenseers and other people 'go into the trees', so it might be what powers the Others is a kind of hive mind of sacrificed Children of the Forest, the result of a monstrous spell worked to create the Others and mess with the seasons.

But I think basically the entire point of the greenseer concept is that history and memory never have to die. To Bloodraven, his childhood and youth and adult days with his loved ones and hated ones are never truly gone because they are always with him in his mind.

If we thus had a greenseer old enough to remember what happened 10,000 years ago then this person would still be with his/her loved ones the same way. They would be with them as long as they existed, and that kind of thing would also be the way to preserve hate and a desire for vengeance. To the younger Children of the Forest, those born after the Long Night, after the arrival of the Andals, after the Targaryen Conquest, etc. old history would be old history. Even their greenseers would see it as such, just as Bran is going to just watch Bloodraven's life (if he bothers doing that), not relive it.

But for those greenseers old enough to have been around during the Dawn Age things would be real as if they happened yesterday. And that's basically the ideal setup for this Others thing. It would give them the motivation these beings need.

Without something like that they would just go through the motions.

And, of course, with this kind of baggage involved, the way to defeat the Others wouldn't be (only) spells and dragons and magic swords but also understanding about what's going on, a realization that the ancient Westerosi are guilty of a monstrous crime, and a willingness to, perhaps, get beyond this all. Which, for the part of this hypothetical evil greenseer would be to abandon those plans and finally seek solace in death.

[Mourning Star]

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The recent ones? Sure. The older ones we can't know, time consumes those of only a few hundred years old ones too.

You are either being willfully ignorant of what I was saying, missed the point entirely or are just trolling...

"In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. 

Iron predates the Andals in Westeros.

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

We don't really know when they dissapeared, given that the Children were giving dragonglass blades to the Night's Watch for a very-very long time. They might hate iron, just as they might hate every kind of metal. This does not confirm that First Men were able to work iron. Or Old Nan might have mistaken there, given how old she is.

They may never have disappeared at all, just been far north. People in Westeros didn't even believe in Giants. I'm not sure why this is relevant.

There is no indication they hate every type of metal that I know of. But Iron is directly referenced, and appears in the crypts (if the old swords were bronze as you suggested they would not have rusted anyway).

I do find it laughable that one could have read this series and still doubt that Nan knows what she's talking about. 

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yep, and the entire keep changed nothing for 8 thousand years, right?

It is literally highlighted as being the original keep, but of course things changed? Are you really just trolling?

It has time worn Gargoyles and all.  Not only that, the discrepancy is highlighted in the World of Ice and Fire in case you missed it in series.

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The Hightower is said to have an ancient lower level, and it was built higher and higher as time passed. Also, one can imagine the walls of Storm's end contain any 8000 years old bricks.

Not talking about the ancient level. Specifically the stone part of the tower.

Quote

The first "high tower," the chroniclers tell us, was made of wood and rose some fifty feet above the ancient fortress that was its foundation. Neither it, nor the taller timber towers that followed in the centuries to come, were meant to be a dwelling; they were purely beacon towers, built to light a path for trading ships up the fog-shrouded waters of Whispering Sound. The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults, and chambers of the strange stone below. It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And they were still unable to give us any reliable picture about those 4 thousands of years before the Andals came, according to you. Altough they existed.

Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted.

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Don't get involved into this on this thread, dude, it wasn't even the main point of my comment (not at all). I just said it as a reason for the First Men and Children being able to live together, altough separated.

Don't understand what you are trying to say here. But the lack of writing is presented as the reason for a lack of accurate history. Obviously if you could skinchange and store memories in animals and trees writing is unnecessary.

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

There's no confusion regarding the numbering of LC of the NW. It's just the latest six hundred and something that we know their names of. The ones who came before them we don't. Except for a very few, like the Night's King.

Ok, almost all of this is wrong.

We don't know the Night's King's name at all, explicitly.

And there is confusion about the numbering:

Quote

The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

As I said im my earlier comment, I do not like confusing AA with the Last Hero or TPTWP. It's just so different, and isn't even originated from Westeros. On the other hand The Last Hero is clearly the Westerosi TPTWP, and the PTWP is pretty much can be found in an isolated form from any kind of faith.

You can like whatever you like, but confused I am not. Feel free to disagree or present alternatives, this is all for fun, but maybe try using supporting evidence if you want to come across as more rational.

I'd suggest that there were probably 13 heroes, the last hero and his 12 companion, gathered from all over the world.

Followers of R'hllor say the hero's name was Azor Ahai, while other cultures call him Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. Tales from Yi Ti speak of a heroic woman with a monkey's tail, and legends from the north regale about a last hero who gained the aid of the children of the forest.

The Starks were probably not First Men from Westeros, or at least they had direct contact with more developed peoples. They were far more technologically advanced than what is presented as the standard for the time, probably part of why they could conquer the North.

[Mourning Star]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And, of course, with this kind of baggage involved, the way to defeat the Others wouldn't be (only) spells and dragons and magic swords but also understanding about what's going on, a realization that the ancient Westerosi are guilty of a monstrous crime, and a willingness to, perhaps, get beyond this all. Which, for the part of this hypothetical evil greenseer would be to abandon those plans and finally seek solace in death.

I would be willing to bet that the answer here is very reminiscent of LotR.

You can't beat the army, you have to take out the source of the power.

So after Bran escapes Bloodraven's cave, probably using the underground river, a group of heroes will have to venture back north to defeat the dark lord with one red eye watching everything from his fortress beyond a giant wall, so that a peace can be established with the Singers/Others.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Mourning Star said:

I would be willing to bet that the answer here is very reminiscent of LotR.

You can't beat the army, you have to take out the source of the power.

So after Bran escapes Bloodraven's cave, probably using the underground river, a group of heroes will have to venture back north to defeat the dark lord with one red eye watching everything from his fortress beyond a giant wall, so that a peace can be established with the Singers/Others.

I rather think somebody with a dragon will fly up there. Walking to the Heart of Winter is out of the question. The cold would just kill them, especially in winter. And even if they had magical fur and stuff, then the Others and wights would find some way to take them out. They would have to cross the entire Land of Always Winter.

And I'd also expect the people to go there to be people imbued with fire, meaning that neither natural nor magical cold can harm/kill them. Which would make Melisandre one such character, and the other (possibly) Jon Snow after his resurrection.

The Others won't matter after the Heart of Winter is dealt with. George even went on record saying they didn't have a proper culture, so they really do not count as a proper species/society.

[Mourning Star]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I rather think somebody with a dragon will fly up there. Walking to the Heart of Winter is out of the question. The cold would just kill them, especially in winter. And even if they had magical fur and stuff, then the Others and wights would find some way to take them out. They would have to cross the entire Land of Always Winter.

And I'd also expect the people to go there to be people imbued with fire, meaning that neither natural nor magical cold can harm/kill them. Which would make Melisandre one such character, and the other (possibly) Jon Snow after his resurrection.

The Others won't matter after the Heart of Winter is dealt with. George even went on record saying they didn't have a proper culture, so they really do not count as a proper species/society.

I totally see what you are saying but I think Bran is in the Heart of Winter at the end of Dance, Bloodraven's Cave. Or if that's not the Heart of Winter, it is at least what Bran saw in the dream, and what needs to be dealt with!

But flying there is for sure an option haha

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I totally see what you are saying but I think Bran is in the Heart of Winter at the end of Dance, Bloodraven's Cave.

But flying there is for sure an option haha

Well, that's literally wrong considering the Heart of Winter is confirmed to be in the Land of Always Winter whereas Bloodraven's cave is just a place beneath a weirwood grove in the middle of the Haunted Forest. That's not even near to the Land of Always Winter, much less in the heart of it.

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that's literally wrong considering the Heart of Winter is confirmed to be in the Land of Always Winter whereas Bloodraven's cave is just a place beneath a weirwood grove in the middle of the Haunted Forest. That's not even near to the Land of Always Winter, much less in the heart of it.

Where is this confirmed? Do we even know where Bloodraven's lair is?

I explained my thinking earlier in the thread, Bloodraven's lair is what Bran sees in his falling dream.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

Where is this confirmed? Do we even know where Bloodraven's lair is?

I explained my thinking earlier in the thread, Bloodraven's lair is what Bran sees in his falling dream.

But it isn't. He looks to a place in the Land of Always Winter, not in the Haunted Forest:

Quote

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

There is no way that the Heart of Winter is some cave in the middle of the Haunted Forest.

It would also make no sense to build up a cool place beyond the dead plains where nothing grew and lived to then just turn into some cave where a lot of people actually live.