Jon is a black rose

[Rondo]

A Blue Rose is a poisoned gift from the bards to the Starks.  It brings death to the Starks.  Mance screwed up Jon's loyalty, or what little was there, and made him question his duties.  Jon released Mance from what should have been a death sentence and it bit Jon in the ass.  The rose is the gift which destroyed the order of the Night's Watch and will lead to the death of the North.  The White Walkers will resurrect Jon and he will come back to murder the men who are guarding the wall.  

[silverwolf22]

On 5/24/2021 at 6:56 AM, Paul Serone said:

Jon is the man who broke the night’s watch because of his love for Arya. That alone is damaging enough. Bran is also dark.  

jon didnt break the nights watch bowen marsh did when he was so seeped in tradition that he wouldnt accept jons decision of letting the wildings in ( and jon was right to execute slynt) when jon takes back the watch it will change in order to get the men they need they have to go up against westeros and take part in the battle of the realms

[LynnS]

On 5/24/2021 at 5:45 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

think instead Jon is more of a Winter Rose, like the one in Dany's visions in the house of the undying, the one growing out the side of The Wall. 

The rare rose is the most beautiful to grow in the gardens of Winterfell, and perhaps this is symbolic of Jon being the rare rose of Winterfell, truly virtuous of the stark values.

There is actually a flower called the winter rose that blooms late winter to early spring depending on latitude.  It comes in all varieties of color from white to black including blue.  It's blooms poke through the snow and it has a sweet scent. It's not actually a rose but a hellebore which looks like a wild rose.

It is toxic if ingested and some varieties can cause a rash if not carefully handled.  There are mythologies around it relating to scandal and witchcraft, invisibility, flying and it's a flower that blooms in the darkness of winter promising the return of spring.

It's also called the lenten rose and christmas rose. 

I think George has thrown a bit of a curve ball with his winter rose.  

 

[Curled Finger]

On 6/4/2021 at 5:27 PM, Rondo said:

Roses are plenty in the story.  The Tyrells are also roses.  Blue roses are significant because they are a poisoned gift.  Jon is a poisoned gift to the wall and his time at commander will cause the wall to fail.  

The blue rose in our story thus far, signifies love or at least love for a daughter of Winterfell.  Lyanna is twice seen with blue roses, at Harrenhal and her death bed.  Bael asks for the most beautiful blue rose in the garden at Winterfell which was a simile for the daughter of Winterfell.   Dany has a vision of a blue rose growing from ice which heralds Jon Snow perhaps.  Jon is a child born of love whether the reader understands it or not.  I don't see the poison here.   Trickery and secrets a plenty, but not poison.  

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The blue rose in our story thus far, signifies love or at least love for a daughter of Winterfell.  Lyanna is twice seen with blue roses, at Harrenhal and her death bed.  Bael asks for the most beautiful blue rose in the garden at Winterfell which was a simile for the daughter of Winterfell.   Dany has a vision of a blue rose growing from ice which heralds Jon Snow perhaps.  Jon is a child born of love whether the reader understands it or not.  I don't see the poison here.   Trickery and secrets a plenty, but not poison.  

I just posted something about the rose above.    There is a flower called the winter rose; it looks like a rose but it's not a rose.  It's a hellebore flower and they are poisonous if ingested and and some varieties have to be handled carefully because they cause a rash or skin irritation.   So dropping a crown of hellebore from the end of one's lance onto a maiden's lap is not looking quite so romantic.

There is also mythology around them associated with witchcraft, invisibility and flying.  In the language of Victorian flowers they can represent scandal.  Symbolically they represent flowers that bloom in the darkness of winter with a promise of spring and dawn.

If Lyanna was holding a black hellebore when she died; that could narrow her time of death between late winter and early spring as the moon turn.  Hellebore naturally grow in forests; so I don't think she died in a sandy place.

So definately the blue rose poking through the ice wall refers to John.  But there is another name for the winter rose - the christmas rose with a story about the birth of christ.  

Huzzah!

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I just posted something about the rose above.    There is a flower called the winter rose; it looks like a rose but it's not a rose.  It's a hellebore flower and they are poisonous if ingested and and some varieties have to be handled carefully because they cause a rash or skin irritation.   So dropping a crown of hellebore from the end of one's lance onto a maiden's lap is not looking quite so romantic.

There is also mythology around them associated with witchcraft, invisibility and flying.  In the language of Victorian flowers they can represent scandal.  Symbolically they represent flowers that bloom in the darkness of winter with a promise of spring and dawn.

If Lyanna was holding a black hellebore when she died; that could narrow her time of death between late winter and early spring as the moon turn.  Hellebore naturally grow in forests; so I don't think she died in a sandy place.

So definately the blue rose poking through the ice wall refers to John.  But there is another name for the winter rose - the christmas rose with a story about the birth of christ.  

Huzzah!

I won't ever understand symbolism to the extent you do Lynn S.   While I am fascinated and completely see your reasoning here I can only interpret this particular blue rose as a story device.   These are my references--I only have the 3 without pulling up the search.   As your basic reader without the background information you offer I gave an honest reply which I don't think is far off from the simple symbolism of the blue rose.   It all points to Jon's parentage in short.   Daughters of Winterfell and their bastards.   While I am pleased to get even this far with the symbolism of anything at all, your reply gives a much deeper dive for which I am also pleased.  I love what you and a few others can really do with the deeper meanings, like @Seams with her amazing wordplay. 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I won't ever understand symbolism to the extent you do Lynn S.   While I am fascinated and completely see your reasoning here I can only interpret this particular blue rose as a story device.   These are my references--I only have the 3 without pulling up the search.   As your basic reader without the background information you offer I gave an honest reply which I don't think is far off from the simple symbolism of the blue rose.   It all points to Jon's parentage in short.   Daughters of Winterfell and their bastards.   While I am pleased to get even this far with the symbolism of anything at all, your reply gives a much deeper dive for which I am also pleased.  I love what you and a few others can really do with the deeper meanings, like @Seams with her amazing wordplay. 

Cheers!  What makes me chuckle is that Martin told us from the beginning, the species of flower but like everyone, I thought it was an actual rose rather than a flower that looks like a rose and is actually named the winter rose for the season it blooms.

I came across this information accidently from a post by another member on Victorian christmas cards, one of which illustrates the winter rose.  So google and wikipedia filled in the rest.

There are still discoveries to be made.

[Quoth the raven,]

Jon is a dark character who has brought more grief, sadness, and tragedy in Westeros.  He has been a dark character from the very first time we got his viewpoint chapters in Thrones.  He will come back from death.  I am certain of it.  But he comes back as some kind of animated zombie who the White Walkers cannot control.  He is not coming back to help the Crows defend the wall.  He comes back to search for his sister and to murder Bowen, Roose, Ramsay, and the Karstark family.  A lot of the readers who like the Starks will be loving this carnage but it will bring more disorder to an already chaotic Westeros.  Dark Rose, winter rose, Nights King Reborn, the Walking Dead, whatever you choose to call Jon.  He will inflict violence at the wall and cause it to fail in its function. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Cheers!  What makes me chuckle is that Martin told us from the beginning, the species of flower but like everyone, I thought it was an actual rose rather than a flower that looks like a rose and is actually named the winter rose for the season it blooms.

I came across this information accidently from a post by another member on Victorian christmas cards, one of which illustrates the winter rose.  So google and wikipedia filled in the rest.

There are still discoveries to be made.

That's interesting. Kinda goes to my point though that Rhaegar didn't get the rose on his own. Mance is the only other likely person. Who from the Stark party would give Rhaegar the flowers?

I really don't think Lyanna died in Dorne either.

 

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

 

"He was the best of us," said the Halfhand, "and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey."

"No more than me," said Jon quietly.

 

 

[LynnS]

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's interesting. Kinda goes to my point though that Rhaegar didn't get the rose on his own. Mance is the only other likely person. Who from the Stark party would give Rhaegar the flowers?

I think it's a flower that isn't as rare as we think.  A flower that may have been blooming around Harrenhall because I don't think the Starks brought it with them.  

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I really don't think Lyanna died in Dorne either.

I don't know but if the black rose is a winter rose; it's an obscure clue that tells us she died when that flower was in season.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 12/24/2021 at 8:49 AM, Curled Finger said:

The blue rose in our story thus far, signifies love or at least love for a daughter of Winterfell.  Lyanna is twice seen with blue roses, at Harrenhal and her death bed.  Bael asks for the most beautiful blue rose in the garden at Winterfell which was a simile for the daughter of Winterfell.   Dany has a vision of a blue rose growing from ice which heralds Jon Snow perhaps.  Jon is a child born of love whether the reader understands it or not.  I don't see the poison here.   Trickery and secrets a plenty, but not poison.  

The blue rose is the sign of the feminine . Lyanna and Brandon's Stark daughter .