Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[LynnS]

Just now, Black Crow said:

All good stuff and while it's GRRM's story at the end of the day, its pretty clear where a lot of the stuff is coming from, and that Winterfell and its children not only belong to Celtic mythology but that the Targaryens and their dragons - and Azor Ahai - are alien to that world and inimical to it.

Yes, but he has thrown in two grail cups or cauldrons - the cup of ice and the cup of fire.  Unless there is really only one cup that raises the dead by fire or ice.

[LynnS]

Bran and Jon working together makes sense to me.  The sleeping hero/king under the mountain to be awakened when needed:

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The king asleep in mountain (D 1960.2 in Stith Thompson's motif index system)[1] is a prominent folklore motif found in many folktales and legends. Thompson also termed it as the Kyffhäuser type.[2] Some other designations are: king in the mountain, king under the mountain, or sleeping hero.

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King Arthur (Great Britain and Brittany). According to the legend, Arthur was taken away to Avalon to sleep until he was needed by the people of Britain. Several legends talk of a herdsman who stumbles across a cave on mainland Britain, wherein he finds Arthur sleeping, often with his knights and Excalibur by his side. In a variation on this, sometimes the exploring herdsman finds instead just Arthur's knights, or Sir Lancelot, Guinevere and the knights sleeping in wait on the return of the "Once and Future King". In early Arthurian literature Arthur references his predecessor Brân the Blessed as having his head placed on a mound overlooking Britain so as to protect it. He wishes to do the same, and later they overlook and protect Britain together.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, but he has thrown in two grail cups or cauldrons - the cup of ice and the cup of fire.  Unless there is really only one cup that raises the dead by fire or ice.

So is it this which Jon must seek in the lower levels of Winterfell? Everyone assumes that the Horn of Winter is to be sounded, but what if its a drinking horn or cup?

This is part of the trouble when the Musgrave Ritual isn't properly understood. 

[LynnS]

47 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

So is it this which Jon must seek in the lower levels of Winterfell? Everyone assumes that the Horn of Winter is to be sounded, but what if its a drinking horn or cup?

This is part of the trouble when the Musgrave Ritual isn't properly understood. 

One of Britain's legendary treasures is the Horn of Bran.  We know that horns can be used as drinking cups and that they are also used to bind otherworld creatures.  The cup and the cauldron seem to be the same thing.  The Night King bound his brothers to his will with sorcery.  Grail cups don't necessarily advertise themselves but are disguised as plain everyday objects.   I have Sam's broken horn penciled in for that one.

"Under the sea, the crows are white as snow' and the WW's are swords without hilts.  Jon asks if sounding the Horn of Joramun will put them back to sleep.

Or was the horn broken to free the Night King's hold on his brothers.  Did that have unlooked for consequences.

Are the Horn of Joramun and the Horn of Winter the same thing? 

[Black Crow]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or was the horn broken to free the Night King's hold on his brothers.  Did that have unlooked for consequences.

Are the Horn of Joramun and the Horn of Winter the same thing? 

Once  again there's an assumption by readers that they are, but they may not be. According to legend Joruman's horn was to be sounded.

Anent Sam's broken horn it's worth noting that it contained arrowheads, In practical terms if it was a sounding horn the mouthpiece would in any case still be too small to prevent them dribbling out, but its nevertheless presented as a container or cup, and it must be significant that its broken.

[Black Crow]

Anent the Horn of Bran, it should be noted that it belonged to a different Bran - from Reghed, who isn;t to be confused [in real life] with Bran the Blessed. That obviously isn't an impediment when it come to writing an epic work work of fiction, and it's also worth noting that the Horn of Bran was definitely a drinking one.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Anent Sam's broken horn it's worth noting that it contained arrowheads, In practical terms if it was a sounding horn the mouthpiece would in any case still be too small to prevent them dribbling out, but its nevertheless presented as a container or cup, and it must be significant that its broken.

And it contains weapons that kill White Walkers since the horn in it's broken state can't be used to bind them to the will of the Nigh King (King of Winter?)

An additional legendary treasures of Great Britain to which Martin refers:

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13 The Mantle of Arthur in Cornwall (Llen Arthyr yng Nghernyw): whoever was under it could not be seen, and he could see everyone.

Thirteen Treasures of the Island of Britain - Wikipedia

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He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

The mantle of darkness?

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Anent the Horn of Bran, it should be noted that it belonged to a different Bran - from Reghed, who isn;t to be confused [in real life] with Bran the Blessed. That obviously isn't an impediment when it come to writing an epic work work of fiction, and it's also worth noting that the Horn of Bran was definitely a drinking one.

Yes, it's not an exact blueprint.  More like a roadmap.  In this story, the horn of Bran is a cauldron, a drinking cup for magic.  Sounding it requires breath and this is the vehicle for drinking in the cold or the fire. Breath or air is fluid.

To me it implies that the Night King may have been another Bran.  The one whose name cannot or must not be spoken then or now:

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell IV

The living have no place at the feasts of the dead. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran's not dead, Jon, he wanted to stay. He's with friends, and they're going north on a giant elk to find a three-eyed crow in the depths of the haunted forest. It sounded so mad that there were times Sam Tarly thought he must have dreamt it all, conjured it whole from fever and fear and hunger . . . but he would have blurted it out anyway, if he had not given his word.

Three times he had sworn to keep the secret; once to Bran himself, once to that strange boy Jojen Reed, and last of all to Coldhands. "The world believes the boy is dead," his rescuer had said as they parted. "Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me."

Potentially those bones are in the crypts of Winterfell.

[Frey family reunion]

51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it's not an exact blueprint.  More like a roadmap.  In this story, the horn of Bran is a cauldron, a drinking cup for magic.  Sounding it requires breath and this is the vehicle for drinking in the cold or the fire. Breath or air is fluid.

I was about to disagree, since the treasures of Britain include both a drinking horn and a cauldron as separate treasures.  But then for some reason I was reminded of this line from Dolorous Ed:

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Edd stood over the kettle swishing the eggs about with a spoon. “I envy those eggs,” he said. “I could do with a bit of boiling about now. If the kettle were larger, I might jump in. Though I would sooner it were wine than water. There are worse ways to die than warm and drunk. I knew a brother drowned himself in wine once. It was a poor vintage, though, and his corpse did not improve it.”
“You drank the wine?”
“It’s an awful thing to find a brother dead. You’d have need of a drink as well, Lord Snow.” Edd stirred the kettle and added a pinch more nutmeg.

It really doesn’t take much for a cauldron to transform into a drinking horn, does it?  

(The jumping in the kettle really does invoke the Bran the Blessed story.) 

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I was about to disagree, since the treasures of Britain include both a drinking horn and a cauldron as separate treasures.  But then for some reason I was reminded of this line from Dolorous Ed:

It really doesn’t take much for a cauldron to transform into a drinking horn, does it?  

(The jumping in the kettle really does invoke the Bran the Blessed story.) 

It doesn't, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. We have a drinking horn and we could have a cauldron as well, for bodies - or for hot soup.

Could Arya be Efnysien ?

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

(The jumping in the kettle really does invoke the Bran the Blessed story.) 

This also comes to mind:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

Janos Slynt had turned from red to purple, Jon saw, but Ser Alliser Thorne had gone pale. The Eastwatch man was pounding his fist on the table again, but now he was shouting for the kettle. Some of his friends took up the cry. "Kettle!" they roared, as one. "Kettle, kettle, KETTLE!"

The kettle was in the corner by the hearth, a big black potbellied thing with two huge handles and a heavy lid. Maester Aemon said a word to Sam and Clydas and they went and grabbed the handles and dragged the kettle over to the table. A few of the brothers were already queueing up by the token barrels as Clydas took the lid off and almost dropped it on his foot. With a raucous scream and a clap of wings, a huge raven burst out of the kettle. It flapped upward, seeking the rafters perhaps, or a window to make its escape, but there were no rafters in the vault, nor windows either. The raven was trapped. Cawing loudly, it circled the hall, once, twice, three times. And Jon heard Samwell Tarly shout, "I know that bird! That's Lord Mormont's raven!"

 

[Tucu]

Some curious wording in some quotes from Tormund Thunderfist Tall-talker, Horn-blower, Breaker of Ice

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"Tormund Giantsbane will sound the Horn of Winter three days hence, at dawn."

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Finally, as the shadows of the afternoon grew long outside the tent, Tormund Giantsbane—Tall-Talker, Horn-Blower, and Breaker of Ice, Tormund Thunderfist, Husband to Bears, Mead-King of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts—thrust out his hand. "Done then, and may the gods forgive me. There's a hundred mothers never will, I know."

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"Peace," Jon Snow replied. "Three days hence, Tormund Giantsbane will lead his people through the Wall

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Three days hence at dawn the gate will open, to allow Tormund and his people through the Wall

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"You are a black-hearted bastard, Lord Crow." Tormund Horn-Blower lifted his own warhorn to his lips. The sound of it echoed off the ice like rolling thunder, and the first of the free folk began to stream toward the gate.

Was the Tall-talker lying?

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"Did she?" Tormund slapped his thigh and hooted. "She burned that fine big horn, aye. A bloody sin, I call it. A thousand years old, that was. We found it in a giant's grave, and no man o' us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the notion to tell you it were Joramun's. He wanted you crows to think he had it in his power to blow your bloody Wall down about your knees. But we never found the true horn, not for all our digging. If we had, every kneeler in your Seven Kingdoms would have chunks o' ice to cool his wine all summer."

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And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes … had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance's horn was just a feint, where is the true horn?

 

[Black Crow]

Definite references there to sounding the Horn of Winter, but of course the one the Wildings have is false.

 

Try this one instead

https://i0.wp.com/www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Horn-of-Bran_0.jpg

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Definite references there to sounding the Horn of Winter, but of course the one the Wildings have is false.

 

Try this one instead

https://i0.wp.com/www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Horn-of-Bran_0.jpg

Looks like he's drinking from that horn.

[Black Crow]

Exactly so 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so 

Hah!  I'm going with dual purpose horn,  Drinking from one end gives the power to raise the dead.  Turning it around and winding it; binds the dead to your will. 

[Frey family reunion]

I’ve recently been rereading the Lord of the Rings and with the sheer number of parallels between it’s story and ASOIAF (and perhaps even more parallels with the Silmarillion) I started to wonder why ASOIAF doesn’t have any magic rings in it’s story.  Then it occurred to me, that perhaps they do.

In Norse mythology (much of which LOTR is indebted to) “rings” may have referenced arm bands, like what Tormund was wearing around his arms, as opposed to finger rings.  And like the “one ring” in Tolkien’s works, Tormund’s arm rings were gold (old gold) with runes written into the band.  

And if you take a look at the banding of the magic horns in the book, such as the one’s possessed by both Mance and Euron, they are also gold covered in runes.  Which makes me wonder if Tormund’s (the horn blower) arm bands are meant to be attached to the end of a horn as it’s banding.  

It seems that the purpose of Euron’s horn is allegedly to bind a dragon to the hornblower (or perhaps the hornblower is sacrificed and the dragon is bound to someone else).  I’ve also heard an interesting theory that Euron’s horn may have been used to bend the will of the participants at the King’s Moot to vote him in as King.

And ultimately that was what the “one ring” did in Tolkien’s mythology.  It was used to bend the will of the other ring bearers.

So it does make me wonder if Tormund’s bands of old gold may be the actual components of the Horn of Winter, who’s purpose perhaps is to bend the will of something (perhaps the weirnet? if we’re looking at a parallel to the Valyrian horn, used by Euron).

[Tucu]

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So it does make me wonder if Tormund’s bands of old gold may be the actual components of the Horn of Winter, who’s purpose perhaps is to bend the will of something (perhaps the weirnet? if we’re looking at a parallel to the Valyrian horn, used by Euron).

Possibly, we have 3 old-gold bands in the books. 2 on horns and 1 on the Horn-blower.

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The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes.

<...>

That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes

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Jaime drew his men up before them and commanded Ser Kennos of Kayce to sound the Horn of Herrock, black and twisted and banded in old gold.

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The armbands were old gold, solid and heavy, engraved with the ancient runes of the First Men. Tormund Giantsbane had worn them as long as Jon had known him; they had seemed as much a part of him as his beard

 

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All look a bit ,.. Californian

Have you seen the SNL’s recurring soap skit The Californians?

Video

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve recently been rereading the Lord of the Rings and with the sheer number of parallels between it’s story and ASOIAF (and perhaps even more parallels with the Silmarillion) I started to wonder why ASOIAF doesn’t have any magic rings in it’s story.  Then it occurred to me, that perhaps they do.

In Norse mythology (much of which LOTR is indebted to) “rings” may have referenced arm bands, like what Tormund was wearing around his arms, as opposed to finger rings.  And like the “one ring” in Tolkien’s works, Tormund’s arm rings were gold (old gold) with runes written into the band.  

And if you take a look at the banding of the magic horns in the book, such as the one’s possessed by both Mance and Euron, they are also gold covered in runes.  Which makes me wonder if Tormund’s (the horn blower) arm bands are meant to be attached to the end of a horn as it’s banding.  

It seems that the purpose of Euron’s horn is allegedly to bind a dragon to the hornblower (or perhaps the hornblower is sacrificed and the dragon is bound to someone else).  I’ve also heard an interesting theory that Euron’s horn may have been used to bend the will of the participants at the King’s Moot to vote him in as King.

And ultimately that was what the “one ring” did in Tolkien’s mythology.  It was used to bend the will of the other ring bearers.

So it does make me wonder if Tormund’s bands of old gold may be the actual components of the Horn of Winter, who’s purpose perhaps is to bend the will of something (perhaps the weirnet? if we’re looking at a parallel to the Valyrian horn, used by Euron).

Interesting!  I was wondering about the ring verse in LOTR as well and how Martin may have employed that in the books.  I hadn't noticed arm rings with runes made of gold before. They could be rings of power.

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A 10th century pagan Icelandic chieftain had a temple in which an arm ring rested upon an "altar", and upon which all oaths in the district were to be sworn, according to the 13th-century Eyrbyggja Saga. An early magical ring in European mythology is the arm ring named Draupnir worn by the god Odin.

Magic ring - Wikipedia

I was also thinking of wierwood rings.  Nine mortal men doomed to die:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

Perhaps it was all in the knowing. They had ridden past the end of the world; somehow that changed everything. Every shadow seemed darker, every sound more ominous. The trees pressed close and shut out the light of the setting sun. A thin crust of snow cracked beneath the hooves of their horses, with a sound like breaking bones. When the wind set the leaves to rustling, it was like a chilly finger tracing a path up Jon's spine. The Wall was at their backs, and only the gods knew what lay ahead.

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."When they entered the grove, Samwell Tarly turned slowly looking at each face in turn. No two were quite alike. "They're watching us," he whispered. "The old gods."

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Possibly, we have 3 old-gold bands in the books. 2 on horns and 1 on the Horn-blower.

One ring to rule them?  

The weirwood ring ruled by the crown of the King of Winter?