Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[alienarea]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Interesting!  I was wondering about the ring verse in LOTR as well and how Martin may have employed that in the books.

Not having read LotR in a long time, but recalling the movies.

Sauron finally is a disembodied, flaming eye. Seeing everything.

Like a weirwood.

 

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Not having read LotR in a long time, but recalling the movies.

Sauron finally is a disembodied, flaming eye. Seeing everything.

Like a weirwood.

A blood bruised eye in the sky (blood moon eclipse) reflected on the dark eye of the Dragonglass Sea, surrounded by a ring of fire (the fourteen flames/volcanos)

Rings of Power | The One Wiki to Rule Them All | Fandom

Three rings: Martin might not be using rings so much as he is using stones: Narya (ruby), Nenya (diamond) and Vilya (sapphire).

Also what, if anything does Narya have to do with Arya.  Unless Braavos is another ring of fire.

 

[Frey family reunion]

Tormund kind of hints that while he freely gives Jon two of his golden armbands, he’s held back a third, that puts the other two to shame.  Of course he does it in his usual Tormund way, so the reader is quick to gloss over it as another of his braggadocios nonsense:

 

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 The armbands were old gold, solid and heavy, engraved with the ancient runes of the First Men. Tormund Giantsbane had worn them as long as Jon had known him; they had seemed as much a part of him as his beard. “The Braavosi will melt these down for the gold. That seems a shame. Perhaps you ought to keep them.”

“No. I’ll not have it said that Tormund Thunderfist made the free folk give up their treasures whilst he kept his own.” He grinned. “But I’ll keep the ring I wear about me member. Much bigger than those little things. On you it’d be a torque.”

So I do wonder if the ring he’s held back, his umm “member” ring, may be the one slated for Joramun’s horn.

And for that matter, what exactly happened to the old gold ring around Mance’s horn?  The last we saw the horn was burned, but what happened to the rings/bands?  It’s doubtful (actually impossible) that the fire got hot enough to melt the gold bands.

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It went up with a whoosh as swirling tongues of green and yellow fire leapt up crackling all along its length. Jon’s garron shied nervously, and up and down the ranks others fought to still their mounts as well. A moan came from the stockade as the free folk saw their hope afire. A few began to shout and curse, but most lapsed into silence. For half a heartbeat the runes graven on the gold bands seemed to shimmer in the air. The queen’s men gave a heave and sent the horn tumbling down into the fire pit.

(It was fire that revealed the elvish script of the one ring described as “fiery letters”).

And perhaps in an intentional parallel to the end of the Tolkien’s “One Ring”, both Rattleshirt and the horn are dumped in the fire.

Spoiler

But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
‘Precious, precious, precious!’ Gollum cried. ‘My Precious! O my Precious!’ And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

The fire pit shouldn’t have melted the bands of old gold.  So I do wonder what happened to them?  It’s seems doubtful that they would have let gold just lie there undisturbed.  

Jon even thinks back to those very bands when Tormund tries to convince him that they burned a fake horn:

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“Did she?” Tormund slapped his thigh and hooted. “She burned that fine big horn, aye. A bloody sin, I call it. A thousand years old, that was. We found it in a giant’s grave, and no man o’ us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the notion to tell you it were Joramun’s. He wanted you crows to think he had it in his power to blow your bloody Wall down about your knees. But we never found the true horn, not for all our digging. If we had, every kneeler in your Seven Kingdoms would have chunks o’ ice to cool his wine all summer.”
Jon turned in his saddle, frowning. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes … had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance’s horn was just a feint, where is the true horn?

It’s almost like GRRM wants us to make the connection with the bands of old gold and runes on the horn with Tormund’s two (maybe three, um “slapped his thigh”) arm bands of old gold laden with runes.

[alienarea]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So I do wonder if the ring he’s held back, his umm “member” ring, may be the one slated for Joramun’s horn.

And maybe blowing the horn of Joramun suddenly got a different, adult meaning :P

Which is in line with how Isis revived Osiris.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Tormund kind of hints that while he freely gives Jon two of his golden armbands, he’s held back a third, that puts the other two to shame.  Of course he does it in his usual Tormund way, so the reader is quick to gloss over it as another of his braggadocios nonsense:

 

So I do wonder if the ring he’s held back, his umm “member” ring, may be the one slated for Joramun’s horn.

And for that matter, what exactly happened to the old gold ring around Mance’s horn?  The last we saw the horn was burned, but what happened to the rings/bands?  It’s doubtful (actually impossible) that the fire got hot enough to melt the gold bands.

(It was fire that revealed the elvish script of the one ring described as “fiery letters”).

And perhaps in an intentional parallel to the end of the Tolkien’s “One Ring”, both Rattleshirt and the horn are dumped in the fire.

  Reveal hidden contents

But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
‘Precious, precious, precious!’ Gollum cried. ‘My Precious! O my Precious!’ And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

The fire pit shouldn’t have melted the bands of old gold.  So I do wonder what happened to them?  It’s seems doubtful that they would have let gold just lie there undisturbed.  

Jon even thinks back to those very bands when Tormund tries to convince him that they burned a fake horn:

It’s almost like GRRM wants us to make the connection with the bands of old gold and runes on the horn with Tormund’s two (maybe three, um “slapped his thigh”) arm bands of old gold laden with runes.

Ordinarily Celtic rings of power took the form of neck torques rather than arm-bands, but it's also worth remembering Bronze Yon Royce and his armour 

[LynnS]

Warhorns looks like something a smith would make.

Horn & Leatherworking - Making a Viking Blowing Horn - YouTube

Sam's horn not only has a crack in it; the rim is chipped.  

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A Clash of Kings - Jon V

It must have been buried for a reason.

He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander. The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things. "Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men." He gave Sam a spearhead and a dozen arrowheads as well, and passed the rest out among his other friends for luck.

So potentially, a band of metal was removed from the rim.  This could be Tormund's arm ring and I wonder if sliding the ring back onto the horn would also compress the horn and seal the crack.  Tormund Hornblower could be a descendant of Joramun and the ring may have come down to Tormund from him. 

It also looks like Sam's horn was made by the Thenns.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

The Magnar sent a dozen men riding west and a dozen more east, to climb the highest hills they could find and watch for any sign of rangers in the wood or riders on the high ice. The Thenns carried bronze-banded warhorns to give warning should the Watch be sighted. The other wildlings fell in behind Jarl, Jon and Ygritte with the rest. This was to be the young raider's hour of glory.

   

[MaesterSam]

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

“Did she?” Tormund slapped his thigh and hooted. “She burned that fine big horn, aye. A bloody sin, I call it. A thousand years old, that was. We found it in a giant’s grave, and no man o’ us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the notion to tell you it were Joramun’s. He wanted you crows to think he had it in his power to blow your bloody Wall down about your knees. But we never found the true horn, not for all our digging. If we had, every kneeler in your Seven Kingdoms would have chunks o’ ice to cool his wine all summer.”
Jon turned in his saddle, frowning. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes … had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance’s horn was just a feint, where is the true horn?

On a slightly unrelated note - why would this ancient horn with golden bands and magic runes be in the grave of a giant? The giants we have met are extremely primitive, they don't even use real tools, just branches or tree trunks. They certainly can't write or read runes and could never produce a horn like this. Yet its size very much suggests it wasn't just a human horn that happened to be in the giant's grave (such as if he had stolen it), but that it was produced for giants. And somehow I don't think it's a mammoth-binding horn...

[MaesterSam]

On 6/23/2021 at 2:31 PM, LynnS said:

We have Jon who secretly covets Winterfell and now that he has died, his watch is done.  Stannis wants to use him as a weapon, so a resurrected Jon could still be elevated to great bastard status with Winterfell as his prize.  Then there is Manderly who figures on parking Rickon in Winterfell, possibly as Robb's heir.  What of Sansa?  Does Littlefinger intend to do the same with her? 

The question then becomes who is the true heir.

I would say it depends on the details of Robb's will. He and Jon were close and he thought Bran and Rickon were dead; it's very possible he straight-up legitimized Jon and made him his heir. Because this came directly from the king I expect this would override any other claims.

I could see a situation like what we had in the show, where Jon wins some battle or the will is discovered and the northmen enthusiastically proclaim him King in the North. Sansa will be torn between wanting to support her brother and being frustrated that all her training & LF's plotting were for nothing, knowing she is much better prepared/qualified to lead the North. 

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

Because this came directly from the king I expect this would override any other claims.

The thing that overrides any claim is the power to take it yourself.

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The thing that overrides any claim is the power to take it yourself.

It will also depend who gets to Winterfell first and has a part in removing the Boltons.

By the end of ADwD, Jon is dead (?), Bran in a cave North of the wall, Arya in Essos, and Sansa in the Vale. Nobody knows how Rickon would look now, so all Manderly needs is a boy of the right age and Shaggydog's fur.

In case Jon survives/is revived he is probably closest. I wonder whether the North would accept Sansa as long as she is with Littlefinger. Arya will have difficulties to prove who she is after (f)Arya.

[LynnS]

Coming back to the rings of power; besides the one ring (invisibility ring that rules them all); the three elven rings are the most prominent in LOTR.  The red/ruby ring (fire); the white/diamond ring (water) and the strongest of the three. the blue/sapphire ring (air).  I don't think we are looking for rings of power, so much as we are looking for swords of power.  So we are not only looking for the sword but the one who becomes the sword: the red sword, white sword and blue sword.

There is another legendary treasure of Great Britain that has it's counterpart in GRRM's story:

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Dyrnwyn, the Sword of Rhydderch Hael[edit]

The Dyrnwyn ("White-Hilt") is said to be a powerful sword belonging to Rhydderch Hael,[3] one of the Three Generous Men of Britain mentioned in the Welsh Triads. When drawn by a worthy or well-born man, the entire blade would blaze with fire. Rhydderch was never reluctant to hand the weapon to anyone, hence his nickname Hael' meaning' "the Generous", but the recipients, as soon as they had learned of its peculiar properties, always rejected the sword.

This is the red sword of heroes that Melisandre wants to make or find.  Longclaw is the white hilt sword.

The counterpart for Excalibur is the Dawn Sword.  It's counterpart in LOTR is Nenya:

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Nenya, also named as the Ring of Water, the White Ring and the Ring of Adamant, was one of the Three Rings. The name is derived from the Quenya Nén meaning water.

Nenya is described as being made of mithril and set with a "white stone", presumably a diamond (this is never stated explicitly, although the usage of the word "adamant", an old synonym, is strongly suggestive). The ring is wielded by Galadriel of Lothlórien, and possessing radiance that matches that of the stars; while Frodo Baggins can see it by virtue of being a Ring-bearer, Samwise Gamgee tells Galadriel he only "saw a star through your fingers" 

Jon sees the star and the sword:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.

It's not apparent at this point what can be identified as the blue/sapphire sword; but we can probably make a guess that Brienne will become the blue sword.  At the moment she carries Oathkeeper, which she considers to be Jaime's sword. 

It seems to me that when ownership of thee swords changes hands; the hilt of the sword is changed to identify the new owner,

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"My son brought dishonor to House Mormont, but at least he had the grace to leave the sword behind when he fled. My sister returned it to my keeping, but the very sight of it reminded me of Jorah's shame, so I put it aside and thought no more of it until we found it in the ashes of my bedchamber. The original pommel was a bear's head, silver, yet so worn its features were all but indistinguishable. For you, I thought a white wolf more apt. One of our builders is a fair stonecarver."

 Not only was Ice reforged (broken); but new hilts with lion's heads were added.

So perhaps Oathkeeper will receive a new hilt at some point:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

 

    

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

The thing that overrides any claim is the power to take it yourself.

Exactly so, this isn't about a mouldy parchment, whether it's Robb's will, or Lyanna's supposed marriage lines with Prince Rhaegar. This isn't a question to be debated and settled by a council or a law court.

I'd be comfortable with Sansa becoming Lady of Winterfell, there's precedent enough both in the Stark history and in Celtic legend, but not Arya or Rickon. They are the younger siblings who will play an important part in the outcome but are not contenders and may do as much harm as good in the process - which is why I queried if Arya might be Efnysien.

Bran, it think is indeed closely patterned on Bendigeidfran/Bran the Blessed/the Fisher King, destined to sit in a cave under the White Hill/Winterfell watching over Westeros. 

Those outcomes were outlined but not understood in the Mummer's Farce.

Jon, however, is the interesting one and alive or dead his destiny is to discover the meaning of the Musgrave Ritual and to be drawn into the crypts to seek what lies beneath and for good or for ill become the King, not in the North, far less of Westeros, but to become the King of Winter.

[Black Crow]

Winter's got no king, says Osha. Perhaps that's the problem. Perhaps it needs one

[Tucu]

44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Winter's got no king, says Osha. Perhaps that's the problem. Perhaps it needs one

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Strange women lying in pyres distributing dragons is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical fire ceremony.
Be quiet!
You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some fiery tart threw a dragon at you!”

Might not be enough people at the end to sustain a feudal system.

[LynnS]

On 6/24/2021 at 4:15 PM, alienarea said:

Sauron finally is a disembodied, flaming eye. Seeing everything.

Like a weirwood.

I think Frey Family Reunion put out the idea of the weirnet was conjuring up the WW's from the images in Bran's mind.  So I wonder if the same can be true of Bloodraven, who warns Bran about bringing back the dead.  We think that's about his lost love, the WW's or that can't be done.  But what if he is referring to Euron?  Someone BR brought back to life from a coma.  What has Bloodraven contributed or created from his own memory or personality?  

Euron says he is the storm and Tyrion is chased across the narrow sea by a storm.  He calls it the bar sinister, the big bastard that is coming up behind him.  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Winter's got no king, says Osha. Perhaps that's the problem. Perhaps it needs one

Sticking with LOTR for a moment: Bran is the One (whose name cannot and must not be spoken).  Melisandre says there is only one god and the Other,  What does that mean?  I make that to mean two gods.  Perhaps there is only one god but one with two faces: ice and fire, two sides of the same coin.   The purpose of the One ring is to find the other rings or powers and bind them back together under one power.  To bind them to his will, in other words.

The other whose name cannot be spoken is the Night King who may have been another incarnation of Bran; a King of Winter with the powers of a greenseer.  Coldhands is Bran's monster and he warns Sam about disturbing the bones of the One who is already dead, the Other Bran who made him long ago.

Right now, the WW's are swords without hilts and they need a king to rule them.  I'm guessing the power to do that resides with whomever claims the crown of the Kings of Winter; itself a ring of power.

 

[LynnS]

Is this another sword in the darkness?

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

When Sam hesitated, one of those hands grabbed him by the arm and yanked him through the door. The room beyond was large and round. Books and scrolls were everywhere, strewn across the tables and stacked up on the floor in piles four feet high. Faded tapestries and ragged maps covered the stone walls. A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned. Aside from that, the only light came from a tall black candle in the center of the room.

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

What weapon could be more appropriate for Sam the Slayer?

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

I wonder what happens when objects made with spells/sorcery are examined under, or exposed, to the light of a glass candle.  Would the pale flame interact with them?

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

Could secrets that are hidden in the objects be seen in the light of a glass candle?  Does Sam's horn have writing that would be illuminated by the candle's pale flame?  

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. "The colors are strange," he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. "How did you get this patterning? I've never seen anything like it."

"Nor I, my lord," said the armorer. "I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but—"

What is Green Obsidian? (geologyin.com)

It isn't just the Starks who have forgotten the meaning of their words;  It's the Night Watch as well.

[alienarea]

On 6/26/2021 at 1:44 PM, Black Crow said:

I'd be comfortable with Sansa becoming Lady of Winterfell, there's precedent enough both in the Stark history and in Celtic legend, but not Arya or Rickon.

This is something that puzzles me between the books and the tv series.

In the books we have (f) Arya, probably because Sansa is still wanted for murdering Joffrey, and because Littlefinger may have other plans for her, and because none of the Northern lords knows how she looks like. 

The last point opens the door for Manderly and (f) Rickon.

I don't see Book-Littlefinger intervening with the army of the Vale unless the Boltons cannot put up a real fight anymore.

[Tucu]

This video dropped in my YT feed:

and reminded me of these bits in the books:

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Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past

This near the inn at the crossroads:

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There was a ferry landing here as well, so travelers could cross to Lord Harroway’s Town and Whitewalls.”

“We left the Trident south of here, and have been riding north and west…not toward the river but away from it.”

“Aye, my lady,” the septon said. “The river moved. Seventy years ago, it was. Or was it eighty? It was when old Masha Heddle’s grandfather kept the place. It was her who told me all this history. A kindly woman, Masha, fond of sourleaf and honey cakes. When she did not have a room for me, she would let me sleep beside the hearth, and she never sent me on my way without some bread and cheese and a few stale cakes.

The river does not move the weirwood, can the weirwood move the river?

And this one with Tyrion in the Sorrows:

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The Sorrows drifted by them. Peering through the mists, he glimpsed a broken spire, a headless hero, an ancient tree torn from the ground and upended, its huge roots twisting through the roof and windows of a broken dome. Why does all of this seem so familiar?

Straight on, a tilted stairway of pale marble rose up out of the dark water in a graceful spiral, ending abruptly ten feet above their heads. No, thought Tyrion, that is not possible.

<...>

“Inconceivable,” said Haldon Halfmaester. “We’ve left the bridge behind. Rivers only run one way.”

“Mother Rhoyne runs how she will,” murmured Yandry.

 

[MaesterSam]

9 hours ago, Tucu said:

There was a ferry landing here as well, so travelers could cross to Lord Harroway’s Town and Whitewalls.”

“We left the Trident south of here, and have been riding north and west…not toward the river but away from it.”

“Aye, my lady,” the septon said. “The river moved. Seventy years ago, it was. Or was it eighty? It was when old Masha Heddle’s grandfather kept the place. It was her who told me all this history. A kindly woman, Masha, fond of sourleaf and honey cakes. When she did not have a room for me, she would let me sleep beside the hearth, and she never sent me on my way without some bread and cheese and a few stale cakes.

I remember reading this and being confused, but then I could never find the passage again. Do we have any idea what happened here? The Trident is the biggest river in Westeros, how can it just move?! How is there no cultural memory of this, it must have flooded all kinds of things as it started on its new path!? This should have been a very memorable event, yet it's only mentioned this once, in passing. And 70-80 years ago is not helpful either. Did anything happen then?