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nyser1

How should Rhaegar have handled things differently?

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12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

He also made some strategic bungles; his army was between Robert's and King's Landing at the Battle of the Trident. Since being on the bank meant he had the high ground, why not keep the high ground and force Robert to cross to face him? I did a thread on that.

Also, how did he get a reputation as a great warrior? Sure wars do not make one great, but his skill as a warrior received few tests outside of jousting; the only time where he actually engages in combat is the Battle of the Trident, where, as I say, he makes a critical strategic mistake and gets killed by Robert.

 

7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I imagine there's an invested interest in building reputations for their ruling families, whether it's been proven or not. Who's going to question whether or not Rhaegar is a good sword fighter? 

I have found myself on the side of questioning Rhaegar’s melee and command abilities in more arguments than less. While It was proven that Robert was the better of the two, his ability to wound Robert (and enough that he could not be the one leading his van into King’s Lansing) us some testament to his ability. Not to mention Rhaegar would have had the best of the best training wise.

 

I also believe that even if the above were not the case and Rhaegar was some crap warrior, most people would believe otherwise. A tall young male in the shiniest of armors with a reputation of winning tourneys, not to mention a Targaryen. Most would be intimidated.

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13 hours ago, Firefae said:

 

We still don't know much about Rhaegar. Also news travels. He and Lyanna might not have known about the trial until it was too late.

Fine, but that means either they didn't find out at all about what was going on in the outside world until the Kingsguard tracked them down to bring Rhaegar back to King's Landing, or they were perfectly happy to stay where they were and ignore the world burning around them. But it doesn't matter which one that is, they are utterly self-absorbed and clueless about the consequences of their actions. All to serve a prophecy which they're phenomenally lucky is actually true. I'll admit, I do hope the abomination was right about the prophecy not actually mattering at all, just so I can freely hate Rhaegar and Lyanna for ruining millions of lives just for the sake of a summer romance.
 

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Fine, but that means either they didn't find out at all about what was going on in the outside world until the Kingsguard tracked them down to bring Rhaegar back to King's Landing, or they were perfectly happy to stay where they were and ignore the world burning around them. But it doesn't matter which one that is, they are utterly self-absorbed and clueless about the consequences of their actions. All to serve a prophecy which they're phenomenally lucky is actually true. I'll admit, I do hope the abomination was right about the prophecy not actually mattering at all, just so I can freely hate Rhaegar and Lyanna for ruining millions of lives just for the sake of a summer romance.
 

I feel setting the entire world on fire because two highborn people dissapeared together pretty much a complete over-reaction. Rhaegar and Lyanna could NOT have known their rendez-vous would lead to this.

I seem to be one of the few to give Rhaegar (and Lyanna) the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he was self-absorbed that way. Single-minded and determined? Yes. Lovestruck? Yes. But not self-absorbed. I think he cared a lot about others.

And who is "the abomination"? 

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4 minutes ago, Firefae said:

I feel setting the entire world on fire because two highborn people dissapeared together pretty much a complete over-reaction. Rhaegar and Lyanna could NOT have known their rendez-vous would lead to this.

I seem to be one of the few to give Rhaegar (and Lyanna) the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he was self-absorbed that way. Single-minded and determined? Yes. Lovestruck? Yes. But not self-absorbed. I think he cared a lot about others.

And who is "the abomination"? 

Rhaegar and Lyanna are young and naive but both (particularly Rhaegar) have grown up around the politics of Westerosi high lords. Rhaegar in particular was raised at court and groomed to be a King. He couldn’t have been completely oblivious, and we went MIA for a LONG time.

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1 minute ago, nyser1 said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna are young and naive but both (particularly Rhaegar) have grown up around the politics of Westerosi high lords. Rhaegar in particular was raised at court and groomed to be a King. He couldn’t have been completely oblivious, and we went MIA for a LONG time.

Do you think anyone expected Brandon to react like that to Lyanna escaping? Did anyone expect Aerys to do THAT to Rickard and Brandon? Yes he was crazy, but he seems to have crossed a line here he didn't cross before.

It's easy to say "he should've known" in hingsight but really? Who could have known that after being defeated at the Blackwater, Stannis would've gone North to smash the wildling army? It makes sense, but seriously, who could have seen it coming?

Who could have seen the Red Wedding coming? Robb also grew up with the politics of Westerosi high lords, yet he fully expected to go North after the wedding.

Who could have seen the Purple Wedding coming? Joffrey was crazy yet did anyone expect him to be poisoned at his own wedding feast? Seriously?

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2 hours ago, Firefae said:

Do you think anyone expected Brandon to react like that to Lyanna escaping?

Not him, but yes he should've known. Raping highborn ladies that are already bethroted to another great lord which also happened to be the ward of another great lord is bound to have consequences. Maybe Brandon was a bit rash, but defiance should have been expected.

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15 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Not him, but yes he should've known. Raping highborn ladies that are already bethroted to another great lord which also happened to be the ward of another great lord is bound to have consequences. Maybe Brandon was a bit rash, but defiance should have been expected.

So Brandon didn't care about Lyanna's feelings re: Robert? He just assumed the worst? That Rhaegar was raping his sister? What does that say about Brandon? Brandon was a rash fool who expected the worst from his future king and went out to commit high treason by running to the Red Keep and screaming that Rhaegar should come out and die. This goes beyond "defiance." And he is also a huge hypocrite, because according to Barbrey Dustin, "Brandon was never shy about what he wanted." Which one could claim indicates he went around claiming the maidenhead's of multiple women whose fathers are sworn to House Stark. And this doesn't even adress Robert's hypocrisy claiming Rhaegar was raping Lyanna, considering what we learn of him in AFFC.

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23 minutes ago, Firefae said:

So Brandon didn't care about Lyanna's feelings re: Robert? He just assumed the worst?

He assumed the obvious. Lyanna was kept in Dorne, far from family and friends. Why would that be?

24 minutes ago, Firefae said:

And he is also a huge hypocrite, because according to Barbrey Dustin, "Brandon was never shy about what he wanted."

Lady Barbrey wasnt bethroted at the time. In fact, her father was actively trying to get her married with a Stark.

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5 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

He assumed the obvious. Lyanna was kept in Dorne, far from family and friends. Why would that be?

Lady Barbrey wasnt bethroted at the time. In fact, her father was actively trying to get her married with a Stark.

To get her away from her shit family who wanted to marry her off to someone who was going to treat her awfully and she had no feelings for?

Yeah, I know about Barbrey. But from the dialogue, I don't get the impression she was the only one whose maidenhead he claimed. That's just speculation however.

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3 hours ago, Firefae said:

Do you think anyone expected Brandon to react like that to Lyanna escaping? Did anyone expect Aerys to do THAT to Rickard and Brandon? Yes he was crazy, but he seems to have crossed a line here he didn't cross before.

It's easy to say "he should've known" in hingsight but really? Who could have known that after being defeated at the Blackwater, Stannis would've gone North to smash the wildling army? It makes sense, but seriously, who could have seen it coming?

Who could have seen the Red Wedding coming? Robb also grew up with the politics of Westerosi high lords, yet he fully expected to go North after the wedding.

Who could have seen the Purple Wedding coming? Joffrey was crazy yet did anyone expect him to be poisoned at his own wedding feast? Seriously?

Hold up my friend.

I don’t think anyone has captain hindsight powers. However, he took serious missteps with the most powerful lords in the country in the most serious of ways. Insulting the honor of Houses Stark, Baratheon, and Martell (not to mention slighting his own children) with a single move. As someone raised at court to be king, he had knowledge of politics and the history of the country. He also could have foreseen his father being involved as a King would be involved in inter-regional disputes. And ones involving the crown and his own son.

Maybe he naively thought he could turn the Starks to a cause against his father? But if so, he should have proactively engaged them.

Going as far away as possible and playing turtle did not do himself nor anyone any favors.

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Rhaegar should have sent Lyanna packing. She came to him, pregnant with Brandon’s child, seeking protection. He should have sent her back to the Starks.  And then take the black.

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4 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Hold up my friend.

I don’t think anyone has captain hindsight powers. However, he took serious missteps with the most powerful lords in the country in the most serious of ways. Insulting the honor of Houses Stark, Baratheon, and Martell (not to mention slighting his own children) with a single move. As someone raised at court to be king, he had knowledge of politics and the history of the country. He also could have foreseen his father being involved as a King would be involved in inter-regional disputes. And ones involving the crown and his own son.

Maybe he naively thought he could turn the Starks to a cause against his father? But if so, he should have proactively engaged them.

Going as far away as possible and playing turtle did not do himself nor anyone any favors.

He never even had time to explain himself and his actions to those houses. Maybe they should've waited for word from Rhaegar before calling the banners? They never had the chance though, and because of that til his day everybody just assumes that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

Reacting wrongly was the fault of Brandon and Aerys. 

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4 minutes ago, Firefae said:

He never even had time to explain himself and his actions to those houses. Maybe they should've waited for word from Rhaegar before calling the banners? They never had the chance though, and because of that til his day everybody just assumes that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

Reacting wrongly was the fault of Brandon and Aerys. 

Agree on the reacting poorly part, but disagree on timing. To our knowledge, no ravens were sent. The “abduction” also occurred in the Riverlands - he easily could have beaten Brandon to the capital.

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Just now, nyser1 said:

Agree on the reacting poorly part, but disagree on timing. To our knowledge, no ravens were sent. The “abduction” also occurred in the Riverlands - he easily could have beaten Brandon to the capital.

Rhaegar wouldn't have gone to the capitol. I don't think Rhaegar wanted to involve Aerys with any of this.

We don't know the access Rhaegar had to ravens.

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Anything we think he should have done is completely mitigated by the fact that Rhaegar was a punk pussy-ass bitch. Reading some nonsense prophecy, cheating in his wife, using his hipster "sullen prince" routine to bang a hot country girl... come on. The guy didnt have the ability to make an adult, manly decision, ever, in his life. Moron even thought he could defeat Robert in single combat.

 

Dude woke up every single day of his life being completely wrong.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Firefae said:

So Brandon didn't care about Lyanna's feelings re: Robert? He just assumed the worst? That Rhaegar was raping his sister? What does that say about Brandon? Brandon was a rash fool who expected the worst from his future king and went out to commit high treason by running to the Red Keep and screaming that Rhaegar should come out and die. This goes beyond "defiance." And he is also a huge hypocrite, because according to Barbrey Dustin, "Brandon was never shy about what he wanted." Which one could claim indicates he went around claiming the maidenhead's of multiple women whose fathers are sworn to House Stark. And this doesn't even adress Robert's hypocrisy claiming Rhaegar was raping Lyanna, considering what we learn of him in AFFC.

Did he know? The only one who definitively knew about Lyanna's misgivings about Robert was Ned, and he swept them under the rug.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Did he know? The only one who definitively knew about Lyanna's misgivings about Robert was Ned, and he swept them under the rug.

We don't know if he knew. I don't think he would've cared either way honestly.

You're right about Ned, I think he came to understand Lyanna's words during his time in King's Landing with Robert.

I think Benjen did know, and also care.

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Robert's Rebellion was like the perfect sympathy of stupid on all sides. 

Ok if you're a prince that believes in prophecy and needs a third child. Pick someone that isn't engaged to a great lord and won't piss off two great houses if you mess around with her?

Alright, if you "love" her... great. Keep her as a paramour, the Dornish should get that. Try and mollify her fiancé man to man.

If you have to marry her, fine. Not like there isn't precedent for Targaryen polygamy. Eloping with her in secret so it's viewed as kidnapping managed to piss off the Starks and Baratheons who called in their friends. The Dornish would've been on their own and Aerys proved they could be kept in line with Elia and her children as hostages.

You think your sister is kidnapped? Here's what not to do. Don't walk into the court of a guy called the Mad King, draw your weapon and yell for the crown prince to come out and die. This has to be the most monumentally stupid act in the entire series.

Your son gets captured because he's too stupid to live? Don't go to the court of a guy called the Mad King and give him another hostage. 

You have the son and heir of a great house that's about to rebel held captive? Don't burn them alive. Use them as leverage to force everyone's consent to your son's second marriage. Keep Brandon hostage to the Starks good behavior. 

You feel you need to lead your army personally as the crown prince? Fine. Lead from behind so you don't accidentally run into a war hammer. If you do have to fight personally... use your kingsguard to actually guard you instead of as battle commanders. 

If you're an evil megalomaniac that wants to burn them all. Ok, do it. Don't dick around. Don't listen to dubious advice like... the guy you think is plotting against you to the point you held his son hostage is suddenly there to help you and open the gates. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Firefae said:

To get her away from her shit family who wanted to marry her off to someone who was going to treat her awfully and she had no feelings for?

Yes, that must be why she was kept in a tiny tower in the mountains instead of Dragonstone or some other luxurious palace.

 

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Posted (edited)

Maybe all was never meant to be differently - if your main goal was to get rid of the realm’s most prominent father without becoming the kinslayer?

Yes, I think Rhaegar had to change plans when the Mad King turned up in Harrenhal. He might have planned to turn the biggest event of the realm into a Great Council. Now with the paranoid guy around, all he had left was: attention. And how he gained it, crowning some woman as queen (of love and beauty, never mind) and by kidnapping her along the way!

That Lyanna would be his partner in crime - this was something the prince could be sure of. Rhaegar was the one to investigate the Knight of the Laughing Tree‘s true identity. And maybe just maybe the poor lady who was despoiled during the tourney happened to be Lyanna… Who wept hearing the harp play because her fiancé decided not to wait till the wedding?

Matches: One wants to see her future husband dead, the other wants to see his father dead. All you need to do is to turn your enemies into weapons against each other. The unlikely couple had reason to believe that Robert would be the one challenging the king. 

Only… the Starks were prouder and the realm was overripe with a desire for change. Any reason would serve under given circumstances. So not everything went according to the plan. But in the end the king was dead - as was the unlucky-soon-to-be-bride. I guess both young people were willing to take that risk. The stakes were too high to not try.

The one to give us the last shreds of truth is someone who was properly built-up for the reveal: Howland Reed. Plus, what exactly Rhaegar’s intentions were is something that haunts Jaime who happens to also be in the process of making and unmaking kings (or queens). This was promised to him by Rhaegar:

When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

So what if “promise me, Ned” was something far bigger than a wee babe but the only revolution Westeros has ever seen? And no, this wasn’t Robert’s Rebellion - it was Targaryen/Stark playwriting?

Edited by Haus Berlin

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