Phonetic misrepresentation of writing in names

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

So I have this theory that more just a half theory at this point, and it has to do with how a pov character understands the spelling of a name and how that is represented in writing. plainly put, I believe some names are misspelled purposely in certain povs to what the character would assume its spelling to be based on the phonetics of the name. the significance of this is to hide the peculiarity of how Targaryens and their decendents style the names of their children. 

for the onset I have two suspected examples, one more tin foil hat that the other.

They are Serra and Dalla. 

Serra is the name of Illyrio's former second wife who he found in a pleasure house in lys. I'll cop to writing a post in the past theorizing Serra to be a blackfyre heir, and she still might be if a Blackfyre was looking to keep the line pure, but after reading fire and blood, the name Serra seem a veiled reference to Seara Targaryen, and she is instead a descendent of this line, taking her forebears name. otherwise Illyrio is being coy with Tyrion, telling him who she is without quite saying such. Tyrion, not quite catching on, interprets the name as Serra, help setting the precedent of my overall claim.

now believe it or not this is not the tin foil claim. the tin foil comes from a previous claim Ive made in another post that Val has dragon blood. the implication being her sister dalla has dragon blood as well. (from bloodraven, shiera, or both)

Well mance resembles rhaegar, but he's a northerner, as far as I can tell. to better resemble rheaghar, a Targaryen bride seems symmetrical. either way their child is Aemon battle born, as Targaryen a name as you could hope. 

So my second proposed misunderstood name is dalla, or Daella in actuality, and just like Daella daughter of Jaehaerys, dalla, wife of mance, dies of childbirth.

perhaps there are other examples I haven't noticed yet, and more likely I am wrong, but maybe I'm not, and maybe George is having fun at us in this way.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

I'm writing a short and only slightly related part 2 here because I'm probably to only person who will write anything in this post

I'm titling it:

Regional Name Dialectic Variances

man its fun to name things.

Anyways besides possible phonetic misrepresentation, there also exist the possibility of names that are intrinsically equivalent but stylized differently by region. the most prominent examples that come to mind are the northern names Eddard and Brandon, compared to southern equivalents like Edric and Brynden.

Names, especially in literature, have meaning. they can indicate foils, and/or foreshadow changes and similarities amongst other things.  With the cases of Edric and Brynden, we must realize George is trying to remind us or compare them to Eddard and Brandon. perhaps this indicated successorship or some like nature, and just as names often have equivalents in other languages, this may apply to characters an names I have not connected above. this could apply to Valyrian names obviously, which begs the question, what are the westerosi name equivalencies to Targaryen names? 

one wild claim - eliminate the ostentatious Valyrian Ae from aegon and you get gon, stylized as Jon in northern westerosi variance. or I'm just overthinking things.

[Springwatch]

On 8/23/2021 at 11:45 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I'm writing a short and only slightly related part 2 here because I'm probably to only person who will write anything in this post

 Bright side: the hottest threads run on well-worn rails; maybe you're just on a road less travelled. 

On 8/23/2021 at 7:43 AM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I believe some names are misspelled purposely in certain povs to what the character would assume its spelling to be based on the phonetics of the name.

It would be a very neat device if true. I like it.

But I don't know. My feeling is that names are deeply important (you've got to remember your name), and it's true we get our attention drawn to the sound of the name as well as the spelling (Euron Greyjoy sounds like Urron Greyiron etc) - but I'm fixated on spelling at the moment.

Just out of interest, what's your head-canon on the pronunciation of 'ae'? Do you feel it has to be 'ay' as in 'day', or 'air' as in 'aerial' (or Sarah)? Or even 'eh' like 'Serra'? Can it be different according to different names?

[Mourning Star]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:43 AM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Serra is the name of Illyrio's former second wife who he found in a pleasure house in lys. I'll cop to writing a post in the past theorizing Serra to be a blackfyre heir, and she still might be if a Blackfyre was looking to keep the line pure, but after reading fire and blood, the name Serra seem a veiled reference to Seara Targaryen, and she is instead a descendent of this line, taking her forebears name. otherwise Illyrio is being coy with Tyrion, telling him who she is without quite saying such. Tyrion, not quite catching on, interprets the name as Serra, help setting the precedent of my overall claim.

It seems to me that we can only speculate at this point, as any of Illyrio, Varys, or Serra could potentially have Blackfyre blood.

Although, I'm partial to the idea that her name was Serra Saan.

"A maiden? I know the way of that." Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra." 
A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

The Saan family are pirates from Lys, perhaps accounting for the closed gates in Pentos, who at least style themselves as Valyrians and were a part of the Band of Nine during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which was essentially the most recent Blackfyre rebellion.

This might also explain the weird interaction Salla has with Illyrio's ship, the Bountiful Harvest, which he claims to have taken but is seen complain about the goods matching the manifest (something which makes little sense if you pirated it!).

Salladhor Saan was not aboard his Valyrian. They found him at another quay a quarter mile distant, down in the hold of a big-bellied Pentoshi cog named Bountiful Harvest, counting cargo with two eunuchs. One held a lantern, the other a wax tablet and stylus. "Thirty-seven, thirty-eight, thirty-nine," the old rogue was saying when Davos and the captain came down the hatch. Today he wore a wine-colored tunic and high boots of bleached white leather inlaid with silver scrollwork. Pulling the stopper from a jar, he sniffed, sneezed, and said, "A coarse grind, and of the second quality, my nose declares. The bill of lading is saying forty-three jars. Where have the others gotten to, I am wondering? These Pentoshi, do they think I am not counting?" 
A Storm of Swords - Davos II

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

 Bright side: the hottest threads run on well-worn rails; maybe you're just on a road less travelled. 

It would be a very neat device if true. I like it.

But I don't know. My feeling is that names are deeply important (you've got to remember your name), and it's true we get our attention drawn to the sound of the name as well as the spelling (Euron Greyjoy sounds like Urron Greyiron etc) - but I'm fixated on spelling at the moment.

Just out of interest, what's your head-canon on the pronunciation of 'ae'? Do you feel it has to be 'ay' as in 'day', or 'air' as in 'aerial' (or Sarah)? Or even 'eh' like 'Serra'? Can it be different according to different names?

Haha, hey I'll take it.

your right though this theory has some problems inherit in it. I'm also curious to the effects of character literacy on such a theory. Davos was illiterate early on but his pov weren't illegible. I think the wildlings make for a stronger case where it is possible because it seems unlikely they maintain a system of writing, making it so someone from such a group may not understand or know the proper spelling of their name.

I do think the Ae noise changes based on the surrounding letter/ names. with Aerys I read it like "air-ees" making aer fit in the phonetic structure of Serra (s-air-a) but im also conflicted as to how accents may effect how the name sounds. dalla is a bit rougher which is why im less confident about that example. Daella, reads to me as "Di-ella", but could just as well be closer to "Dale-la." in the case of the latter, I think the theory still works.

on a similar note I think val might just be a nickname. Valerion was one of Daella's brothers who dies in infancy, so a female equivalent seems possible at least.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

It seems to me that we can only speculate at this point, as any of Illyrio, Varys, or Serra could potentially have Blackfyre blood.

Although, I'm partial to the idea that her name was Serra Saan.

"A maiden? I know the way of that." Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra." 
A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

The Saan family are pirates from Lys, perhaps accounting for the closed gates in Pentos, who at least style themselves as Valyrians and were a part of the Band of Nine during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which was essentially the most recent Blackfyre rebellion.

This might also explain the weird interaction Salla has with Illyrio's ship, the Bountiful Harvest, which he claims to have taken but is seen complain about the goods matching the manifest (something which makes little sense if you pirated it!).

Salladhor Saan was not aboard his Valyrian. They found him at another quay a quarter mile distant, down in the hold of a big-bellied Pentoshi cog named Bountiful Harvest, counting cargo with two eunuchs. One held a lantern, the other a wax tablet and stylus. "Thirty-seven, thirty-eight, thirty-nine," the old rogue was saying when Davos and the captain came down the hatch. Today he wore a wine-colored tunic and high boots of bleached white leather inlaid with silver scrollwork. Pulling the stopper from a jar, he sniffed, sneezed, and said, "A coarse grind, and of the second quality, my nose declares. The bill of lading is saying forty-three jars. Where have the others gotten to, I am wondering? These Pentoshi, do they think I am not counting?" 
A Storm of Swords - Davos II

Thats interesting. I had never considered a much greater role for the Saans. was it the lysenee that required girls to spend a year at a pillow house or pleasure gardens? if so then there actually could be some credence to the theory for who the two got together. 

the current generation of stark and Targaryen seems to have a convergence of important bloodlines, and maybe that extends to the exile houses of Seara Targaryen, the Blackfyres, the Saans and others.

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Thats interesting. I had never considered a much greater role for the Saans. was it the lysenee that required girls to spend a year at a pillow house or pleasure gardens? if so then there actually could be some credence to the theory for who the two got together. 

I think you are remembering the Summer Isles:

"Her blood is the blood of summer, my lord, but my daughter was born here in King's Landing." His surprise must have shown on his face, for Chataya continued, "My people hold that there is no shame to be found in the pillow house. In the Summer Isles, those who are skilled at giving pleasure are greatly esteemed. Many highborn youths and maidens serve for a few years after their flowerings, to honor the gods."
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion III

But the simple fact that Illyrio found her a maiden, may indicate she was valuable for some reason. The Valyrian coloring is still common in Lys, so I suspect Serra was still a virgin because of who she was. However, it's all obviously speculation.

Still, I have to assume there is something going on with Salla, since otherwise I have a hard time understanding his actions.

When I'm feeling particularly daring or tinfoily, I speculate openly that Salla might in fact be the same person as Illyrio!

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think you are remembering the Summer Isles:

"Her blood is the blood of summer, my lord, but my daughter was born here in King's Landing." His surprise must have shown on his face, for Chataya continued, "My people hold that there is no shame to be found in the pillow house. In the Summer Isles, those who are skilled at giving pleasure are greatly esteemed. Many highborn youths and maidens serve for a few years after their flowerings, to honor the gods."
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion III

But the simple fact that Illyrio found her a maiden, may indicate she was valuable for some reason. The Valyrian coloring is still common in Lys, so I suspect Serra was still a virgin because of who she was. However, it's all obviously speculation.

Still, I have to assume there is something going on with Salla, since otherwise I have a hard time understanding his actions.

When I'm feeling particularly daring or tinfoily, I speculate openly that Salla might in fact be the same person as Illyrio!

oh, you're right I was thinking of the summer islands! thanks for that catch.

I really don't think they could be the same person though. Illyrio is too fat. though who am I to criticize, my own tinfoil hat is pretty spectacular. 

 

[Mourning Star]

51 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

oh, you're right I was thinking of the summer islands! thanks for that catch.

I really don't think they could be the same person though. Illyrio is too fat. though who am I to criticize, my own tinfoil hat is pretty spectacular. 

 

Is Illyrio really fat though?

Right from the start we are told by Dany:

she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio

And specifically he doesn't move like a fat man:

He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man.

Then again when Arya see's him in King's Landing, across the Narrow Sea from Pentos (where he had to climb up into the Red keep):

Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might.

But, Dany is told Illyrio can't come to her, despite him obviously traveling by ship for Arya to see him:

"The Magister begs your kind indulgence for sending us in his stead, but he cannot sit a horse as he did in his youth, and sea travel upsets his digestion."

And Salla says:

"Illyrio Mopatis. A whale with whiskers, I am telling you truly. These chairs were built to his measure, though he is seldom bestirring himself from Pentos to sit in them. A fat man always sits comfortably, I am thinking, for he takes his pillow with him wherever he goes."

So, I am suggesting that Salla is being quite literal about the pillow (in that Illyrio being fat is a disguise)!

I actually think this is quietly a lot more likely than it seems at first glance.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Is Illyrio really fat though?

Right from the start we are told by Dany:

she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio

And specifically he doesn't move like a fat man:

He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man.

Then again when Arya see's him in King's Landing, across the Narrow Sea from Pentos (where he had to climb up into the Red keep):

Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might.

But, Dany is told Illyrio can't come to her, despite him obviously traveling by ship for Arya to see him:

"The Magister begs your kind indulgence for sending us in his stead, but he cannot sit a horse as he did in his youth, and sea travel upsets his digestion."

And Salla says:

"Illyrio Mopatis. A whale with whiskers, I am telling you truly. These chairs were built to his measure, though he is seldom bestirring himself from Pentos to sit in them. A fat man always sits comfortably, I am thinking, for he takes his pillow with him wherever he goes."

So, I am suggesting that Salla is being quite literal about the pillow (in that Illyrio being fat is a disguise)!

I actually think this is quietly a lot more likely than it seems at first glance.

wow, fat suit Illyrio is now my new favorite theory. I Wont say I believe it, but I do love it.

[The hairy bear]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:43 AM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I believe some names are misspelled purposely in certain povs to what the character would assume its spelling to be based on the phonetics of the name. the significance of this is to hide the peculiarity of how Targaryens and their decendents style the names of their children.

We've seen Alysannes in many non-Targaryen families across Westeros. We've also seen Aegon Ambrose and Aegon Frey, and others. The point being that someone with a Targaryen name does not necesarily be a Targaryen. Specially in the Free Cities, where they have a great degree of Valyrian influence.

On 8/23/2021 at 8:43 AM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

the name Serra seem a veiled reference to Seara Targaryen

Two of the other named Lysenne females that we know of are called Marra and Larra. In this context, Serra seems a fine Lysenne name. It doesn't mean that she can't descend from Saera (the name could have been corrupted with the centuries), but to base it all on just a name resemblance seems tinfoil to me.

On 8/24/2021 at 12:45 AM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

 the most prominent examples that come to mind are the northern names Eddard and Brandon, compared to southern equivalents like Edric and Brynden.

It would be cool if George had devised different sets of names for the First Men and Andal cultures, making the worldbuilding more realistic and enabling us to identify the cultural background of a character only by the given name. Sadly this is not the case.

Edric is not a Southern name: there are two Edric Starks in the family tree, one from the first century after the Conquest and the other from the second. There's also little ground for calling Brynden an Andalish name when two of the three Bryndens that we know of come from House Blackwood.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

So, I am suggesting that Salla is being quite literal about the pillow (in that Illyrio being fat is a disguise)!

It would seem weird that Illyrio used his 'fat disguise' in his monotonous law-abiding daily life on Pentos, and then, when he goes incognito to King's Landing in a most dangerous secret meeting to plot treason, he doesn't change his looks. Specially when Varys goes to great lengths to hide his identity.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

6 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

We've seen Alysannes in many non-Targaryen families across Westeros. We've also seen Aegon Ambrose and Aegon Frey, and others. The point being that someone with a Targaryen name does not necesarily be a Targaryen. Specially in the Free Cities, where they have a great degree of Valyrian influence.

Two of the other named Lysenne females that we know of are called Marra and Larra. In this context, Serra seems a fine Lysenne name. It doesn't mean that she can't descend from Saera (the name could have been corrupted with the centuries), but to base it all on just some resemblance seems tinfoil to me.

It would be cool if George had devised different sets of names for the First Men and Andal cultures, making the worldbuilding more realistic and enablong us to identify the cultural background of a character only by their given names. Sadly this is not the case.

Edric is not a Southern name: there are two Edric Starks in the family tree, one from the first century after the Conquest and the other from the second. There's also little ground for calling Brynden an Andalish name when two of the three Bryndens that we know of come from House Blackwood.

this is a very fair and well thought out criticism. I hope you at least enjoyed the shape of my tin foil hat.

[Mourning Star]

14 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It would seem weird that Illyrio used his 'fat disguise' in his monotonous law-abiding daily life on Pentos, and then, when he goes incognito to King's Landing in a most dangerous secret meeting to plot treason, he doesn't change his looks. Specially when Varys goes to great lengths to hide his identity.

Actually, this is a classic. Have the public identity be the disguise, ever seen the movie The Prestige? Fun movie that does a great job explaining this.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting about Illyrio's looks in the tunnels beneath the Red Keep though, presumably he just got off a ship and may well have used a disguise for whatever reason he came to King's Landing to accomplish (a good question in itself, as presumably it wasn't to chat with Varys while climbing up and down ladders and dark passages).

Rugen is the disguise Varys uses in the Black Cells and tunnels beneath the Red keep, where Arya oversees him.

In fact, part of what Arya overhears is Varys saying he doesn't have anyone on Dragonstone to keep an eye on Stannis.

And then Salla, a pirate, appears on Dragonstone to support Stannis for nothing but promises, which never made sense, and manages to keep his fleet out of the Blackwater (which was a trap Varys would know about) and finally abandons Stannis's cause just before Tyrion arrives in Pentos (I'd even suggest Tyrion traveled across the sea in his boat).

I'm not saying I believe it entirely but I haven't been able to convince myself it's not true over the years either.

Even if (granted probably likely) Salla isn't Illyrio, I think there is a good chance they are working together.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Actually, this is a classic. Have the public identity be the disguise, ever seen the movie The Prestige? Fun movie that does a great job explaining this.

ha no way, this movie actually came to mind when you mentioned your theory! the old man and the fish bowl! classic.

[Seams]

Excellent topic. I think GRRM may use several name-related tricks to show connections between or among characters. Your theory might be right in some cases: different speakers or POVs hear the name slightly differently or guess at the spelling and this helps to hide from the reader a character who was encountered elsewhere. We strongly suspect that Alleras at the Citadel is actually Sarella Sand, which would tend to support the idea that there are disguised characters changing their names in order to hide or do undercover work. 

I've speculated about these possible name tricks in ASOIAF:

1) Recombined syllables to show that someone embodies qualities from two characters. For instance, Rickon Stark may somehow represent both his grandfather, Rickard, and a Brandon or someone else with an -on suffix. Aegor Rivers has a syllable from Aegon but also a syllable from Maegor. 

2) Variations and anagrams of a name: Queen Alysanne was beloved and, as @The hairy bear points out, many babies are named Alysanne, Alyssa, Alys, Lysa, and even Lyanna or Nan. But then Alayne seems like a recombination of Lyanna. How far will the variations go? Do these characters have much in common that would explain why GRRM gave them related names?

3) One letter (or sound) is different. I am hoping to one day figure out both how and why Jon Snow's friend Grenn is a "green" character and Tyrion's friend Bronn is a "brown" character. Hizdahr zo Loraq is a Wizard of Oz allusion but "Wizard" swaps out the "W" for an "H" (or two) and then some letters are rearranged. "Oz" becomes "zo". (I don't know yet what Loraq stands for.) There are some anagrams that seemed to be off by one letter and this drove me crazy until I started to think that it might be part of a pattern of changing (or adding or subtracting) one letter.

4) "Foreign" words. The German word for green is "grün" which might be approximated as "gruen" by someone who doesn't speak German. So I wonder whether Rugen, the alter-ego of Varys, is another "green" name with a small anagram to better hide it. Podrick and Ilyn Payne might be linked to the French word "pain," meaning "bread" (which might mean they are in a category with Arya's friend Hot Pie). Although their surname could also relate to panes of glass or the kind of pain that results from being stabbed with a sword.

But these related or identical names seem to have a variety of purposes. In some cases, as you say, it might be a disguised person we have seen elsewhere in the histories or in a different pov.

More often, I think it is the "reborn" spirit of a character we have seen or heard about in a legend, or someone with similar traits. Tyrion and Arya take on many names over the course of their travels. I think each new name shows an aspect of their growth and the powers they are taking on.

Apparently, the Celtic notion about names and rebirth was that heroes or gods might be reborn in a child from the same family line. One website I can't seem to find said that child and the hero would have the same name. Another website says, "a particular deity would choose to befriend a particular lineage and incarnate him or herself within that lineage, and thus a child could be born possessing certain characteristics of that deity. The child would not necessarily embody the personality of that spirit or divinity (though this sometimes happened in the cases of great heroes), but certain attributes or talents would develop as gifts from that divinity."

Something along these lines seems to ring true with some of the ASOIAF characters. I'm not sure how often GRRM uses the Celtic device, or whether he puts his own twist on the rebirth idea: for instance, is there a mutation each time the deity is reborn, making each reborn person unique in some small way? We see Brynden Blackfish become the guardian at the Gates of the Moon and then the disappearing uncle, somewhat similar to Brynden Blackwood becoming the Hand of the King and then "disappearing" to go the Wall. Hmm. It appears that Bloodraven is not yet dead, though. Can he be reborn in Brynden Tully if he is not dead? Or is the reader just supposed to see them as similar characters? The two Bryndens do not come from the same kin group but they have Riverlands roots in common. The many Brandon Starks have some things in common but each seems to have his own unique twist that helps us to differentiate among them. 

I still don't know why Arya's friend Lommy Greenhands shares the name of the important deity Garth Greenhands, although I suspect it has to do with dying / dyeing and then being reborn.

Although maybe he really was Garth Greenhands in disguise. 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

@Seams amazing post.

25 minutes ago, Seams said:

More often, I think it is the "reborn" spirit of a character we have seen or heard about in a legend, or someone with similar traits. Tyrion and Arya take on many names over the course of their travels. I think each new name shows an aspect of their growth and the powers they are taking on.

Apparently, the Celtic notion about names and rebirth was that heroes or gods might be reborn in a child from the same family line. One website I can't seem to find said that child and the hero would have the same name. Another website says, "a particular deity would choose to befriend a particular lineage and incarnate him or herself within that lineage, and thus a child could be born possessing certain characteristics of that deity. The child would not necessarily embody the personality of that spirit or divinity (though this sometimes happened in the cases of great heroes), but certain attributes or talents would develop as gifts from that divinity."

Something along these lines seems to ring true with some of the ASOIAF characters. I'm not sure how often GRRM uses the Celtic device, or whether he puts his own twist on the rebirth idea: for instance, is there a mutation each time the deity is reborn, making each reborn person unique in some small way? We see Brynden Blackfish become the guardian at the Gates of the Moon and then the disappearing uncle, somewhat similar to Brynden Blackwood becoming the Hand of the King and then "disappearing" to go the Wall. Hmm. It appears that Bloodraven is not yet dead, though. Can he be reborn in Brynden Rivers if he is not dead? Or is the reader just supposed to see them as similar characters? The two Bryndens do not come from the same kin group but they have Riverlands roots in common. The many Brandon Starks have some things in common but each seems to have his own unique twist that helps us to differentiate among them. 

This is fascinating. It explains the multitudes of gods and magics that operative through different commands but are similar in function, and its supported by the existance of the faceless god, a church to the worship of the infinite mechanism of new death gods. it helps explain the hero's and theotic dichotomies like the storm god (ravens) and the drowned god (nagas) mirroring the red god (dragons) and the old god (ravens). and there is good reason to believe that the gods of asoiaf are based on Celtic myth. George has gone so far as to compare the others to aes sídhe when describing them, a clear indication of prototyping for conjuring a mental image.

 

[asongofheresy]

On 8/23/2021 at 9:43 AM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

So I have this theory that more just a half theory at this point, and it has to do with how a pov character understands the spelling of a name and how that is represented in writing. plainly put, I believe some names are misspelled purposely in certain povs to what the character would assume its spelling to be based on the phonetics of the name. the significance of this is to hide the peculiarity of how Targaryens and their decendents style the names of their children. 

for the onset I have two suspected examples, one more tin foil hat that the other.

They are Serra and Dalla. 

Serra is the name of Illyrio's former second wife who he found in a pleasure house in lys. I'll cop to writing a post in the past theorizing Serra to be a blackfyre heir, and she still might be if a Blackfyre was looking to keep the line pure, but after reading fire and blood, the name Serra seem a veiled reference to Seara Targaryen, and she is instead a descendent of this line, taking her forebears name. otherwise Illyrio is being coy with Tyrion, telling him who she is without quite saying such. Tyrion, not quite catching on, interprets the name as Serra, help setting the precedent of my overall claim.

now believe it or not this is not the tin foil claim. the tin foil comes from a previous claim Ive made in another post that Val has dragon blood. the implication being her sister dalla has dragon blood as well. (from bloodraven, shiera, or both)

Well mance resembles rhaegar, but he's a northerner, as far as I can tell. to better resemble rheaghar, a Targaryen bride seems symmetrical. either way their child is Aemon battle born, as Targaryen a name as you could hope. 

So my second proposed misunderstood name is dalla, or Daella in actuality, and just like Daella daughter of Jaehaerys, dalla, wife of mance, dies of childbirth.

perhaps there are other examples I haven't noticed yet, and more likely I am wrong, but maybe I'm not, and maybe George is having fun at us in this way.

You are right with Saera and Serra parallel, there is no way Blackfyre heirs were ever sold to slavery imo, they will be well protected by Rohanne's family and any loyalist that may still work with GC, but Saera only had bastards and it is possible her descendant ended up a slave. The similarity with Daella and Dalla isnt something I noticed before but the only other Dalla in the books is from Dragonstone who is pregnant during Cressen POV chapter. 

[Groo]

This would explain why everyone mistakenly thinks Aeron Greyjoy has a ridiculous nickname. It's not Damphair, as in "damp hair". It's actually Damfir. The "ph" spelling for the "f" sound throws people off.

[Willam Stark]

The "ae" we see in Targaryen names seems to be pronounced like the Latin diphthong "æ" rather than the Old English letter "Æ".

So the name "Serra" might simply be the pronunciation of the name Saera, which is written as I just mentioned or or it is written as you pronounce it in Common Tongue.

[Springwatch]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:13 AM, Willam Stark said:

The "ae" we see in Targaryen names seems to be pronounced like the Latin diphthong "æ" rather than the Old English letter "Æ".

So the name "Serra" might simply be the pronunciation of the name Saera, which is written as I just mentioned or or it is written as you pronounce it in Common Tongue.

I'm not keep on the 'eh' sound because then Daenerys sounds like Dennis. (I'm finding it quite hard to get that out of my head now - Dennis, the Unburnt, mother of dragons....)

But I don't think it can be straightforwardly Dan-erys (to rhyme with Dany), because by the same rule Aegon should rhyme with Egg. ('Eh' again, .)

[Willam Stark]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm not keep on the 'eh' sound because then Daenerys sounds like Dennis. (I'm finding it quite hard to get that out of my head now - Dennis, the Unburnt, mother of dragons....)

I'm okay with that personally.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But I don't think it can be straightforwardly Dan-erys (to rhyme with Dany), because by the same rule Aegon should rhyme with Egg. ('Eh' again, .)

I don't think it is relevant to take rhymes into account.