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The tragedy of the lannisters


Daenerysthegreat
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5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Its disgusting 

I also get disgusted when people say that cersei deserved the walk. I want them to walk naked being insulted by thousands for just sleeping around. 

She brought this on herself: she's restored the Faith Militant which is a group of religious fanatics, gave judicial authority to the High Sparrow, tried to frame Margaery for adultery by using the same High Sparrow as judge, the Kettleblack as pawn after sleeping with them. What could have gone wrong seriously? She totally deserved it, she deserves even more but I will stick with it on this post.

You shouldn't identify yourself to this awful women, keep rooting for Dany because she's far more likeable and respectable than her. When you'll read Cersei's chapter in TWOW and ADOS, have some popcorn and enjoy her downfall. I will definitely do it and look forward to see her die, killed by the Valonqar whoever he/she/it might be.

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21 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

She brought this on herself: she's restored the Faith Militant which is a group of religious fanatics, gave judicial authority to the High Sparrow, tried to frame Margaery for adultery by using the same High Sparrow as judge, the Kettleblack as pawn after sleeping with them. What could have gone wrong seriously? She totally deserved it, she deserves even more but I will stick with it on this post.

She was punished for sleeping with other men not for her other crimes. If you think she deserves it, I want all men who have had sex in their life(yourself included) to do the walk of shame, insults and tomatoes and dead cats included. 

How can you even justify doing this to a woman. No one raped hitler for his crimes and his crimes were far worse than cersei's. No one raped Genghis khan. 

No woman, even an awful one as cersei, deserves that done to her. That's practically rape

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32 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

She was punished for sleeping with other men not for her other crimes. If you think she deserves it, I want all men who have had sex in their life(yourself included) to do the walk of shame, insults and tomatoes and dead cats included. 

How can you even justify doing this to a woman. No one raped hitler for his crimes and his crimes were far worse than cersei's. No one raped Genghis khan. 

No woman, even an awful one as cersei, deserves that done to her. That's practically rape

Sorry love but outside of Dorne, there is no sexual liberty in Westeros, especially in the Faith of Seven which is her religion. She lives in a society where religion is very important and where fornication is considered as a crime, a sin, a dishonor. She knows that very well, but she's decided to restore the Faith Militant who are more than eager to punish the sinners for their sin, has committed a sin and expected to get away with it. She did all of that for the sole purpose of framing Margaery for adultery, not even for a simple hook up or serious relationship.

She had it coming and got what she deserved, she shouldn't have restored the Faith Militant in the first place and keep her leg closed. In the meantime, stick to ASOIAF who emulates a European medieval society, real life is irrelevant. Don't play the victim either, it won't work with me and it won't make your arguments more relevant.

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33 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Sorry love but outside of Dorne, there is no sexual liberty in Westeros, especially in the Faith of Seven which is her religion. She lives in a society where religion is very important and where fornication is considered as a crime, a sin, a dishonor. She knows that very well, but she's decided to restore the Faith Militant who are more than eager to punish the sinners for their sin, has committed a sin and expected to get away with it. She did all of that for the sole purpose of framing Margaery for adultery, not even for a simple hook up or serious relationship.

 

I'm not your love so don't call me love. 

If fornication is a crime then why wasn't jon snow punished for it?Where was his walk of atonement? Why didnt ned stark do a walk of shame for fathering a bastard? Why didn't the usurper do a walk of shame? 

 

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23 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If fornication is a crime then why wasn't jon snow punished for it?Where was his walk of atonement? Why didnt ned stark do a walk of shame for fathering a bastard? Why didn't the usurper do a walk of shame? 

 

Thinking along the lines of this medieval setting, it's perfectly all right for someone male to sleep around, but if it's someone female then they're.....you get the point. It's sexist, but then again we can't apply a modern look to a medieval setting. 

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24 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I'm not your love so don't call me love. 

No problem darling.

27 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If fornication is a crime then why wasn't jon snow punished for it?Where was his walk of atonement? Why didnt ned stark do a walk of shame for fathering a bastard? Why didn't the usurper do a walk of shame? 

28 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Robb stark made a mistake as well? Where was his walk of atonement? 

Jaenara Belarys has answered your question.

28 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Any other female people on this forum do you agree with him? 

Your gender won't make your arguments more relevant darling.

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43 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Thinking along the lines of this medieval setting, it's perfectly all right for someone male to sleep around, but if it's someone female then they're.....you get the point. It's sexist, but then again we can't apply a modern look to a medieval setting. 

I think so given the characters if arya and Brienne, we are supposed to view this story with a modern lens. 

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55 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I think so given the characters if arya and Brienne, we are supposed to view this story with a modern lens. 

No, we're not. Arya and Brienne break the gender roles, they have nothing to do with viewing the story through a modern lens. 

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20) The wonderful woman is forced to walk naked through the streets just for the crime of sleeping with other men. The people insult her, they tell her how her body has aged, they call her a who're. She sees their laughter their delight in seeing her humiliated. She sees other people as well, her father looking disappointed at her, the dwarf laughing at her fallen state, the stupid girl and the proud lord. Her dignity is lost, she feels dirty, violated, used. She breaks down before just she reaches the palace. 

21) The uncle arranged the wonderful woman's humiliation to teach her a lesson. He is worried about a pretender who is currently raising an army. The uncle is then attacked by the spider. The spider reveals his plan to destroy their family. Then the spider's children arrive to kill the uncle. They are swif as shadows and in their hands, the daggers. 

 

 

                         The end

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Just now, Daenerysthegreat said:

20) The wonderful woman is forced to walk naked through the streets just for the crime of sleeping with other men. The people insult her, they tell her how her body has aged, they call her a who're. She sees their laughter their delight in seeing her humiliated. She sees other people as well, her father looking disappointed at her, the dwarf laughing at her fallen state, the stupid girl and the proud lord. Her dignity is lost, she feels dirty, violated, used. She breaks down before just she reaches the palace. 

21) The uncle arranged the wonderful woman's humiliation to teach her a lesson. He is worried about a pretender who is currently raising an army. The uncle is then attacked by the spider. The spider reveals his plan to destroy their family. Then the spider's children arrive to kill the uncle. They are swif as shadows and in their hands, the daggers. 

 

 

                         The end

Well it's over so what do you all think

Next is the tragedy of the targaryens

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10 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I don't care

Clearly we view the story with different lenses. 

Keep your opinion

 

Morality evolves just as much as technology and culture and other aspects of a society. Applying a modern morality to this story... basically everyone would be a terrible person in some form or another. Sometimes you just have to take the stir at face value for what it is. You had people break the gender role in real history to be certain. Olga of Kiev comes to mind as one of the biggest unknown badasses in history. 

I do think @William Stark was out of line calling you love there. 

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10 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If any account posting something which you dont like is a troll then @Mourning Star is a troll. But is she a troll? Of course not. 

 

This appears to be a common tactic for you, in which you bring in people or things who have absolutely nothing to do with the argument you're on. Enjoy and goodbye. 

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While I wouldn't call Cersei "a wonderful woman" and there are a lot of moments where I am disturbed after reading one of her POV chapters, I do think that she is a tragic character and that she is greatly misunderstood by large portions of the fanbase. I will copy and paste my analysis from another site where I argued why Cersei is not a Hate Sink because it also explains why I think Cersei is a tragic character:

Quote

To start off, Cersei loves her kids. For example, when she learns that Tyrion wants to send Myrcella off to Dorn, she gets furious. When Tyrion mentions that if Myrcella stays in King's Landing her head would be put on a spike, Cersei bursts into tears and Tyrion even makes an attempt to calm her down. Later, in the fifth book, when Cersei learns that someone has cut off one of Myrcella's ears, she is shocked and is angry why the guards weren't able to protect her. Also, when Joffrey dies on his wedding, Cersei hugs him and begs the other people and her father to help him. When he finally dies in her arms, she can't stop hugging his corpse and a few people need to take him away from her. She later gets flashbacks about Joffrey's death and swears that the same won't happen to Tommen. About Tommen, there is a moment where he chokes while drinking some wine. Cersei immediately remembers Joffrey's death and thinks that someone has poisoned Tommen as well. She then makes a quick dash to him. When she sees that he is alright, Cersei feels that she is about to cry but doesn't want anyone to see her like that and leaves the ceremony and then bursts into tears. Cersei also has a nightmare where Tyrion has tied her up, has torn off her breasts with his teeth but she still begs him not to harm her kids. There is also a scene where Cersei watches Tommen while he is talking to her about his cats and she thinks that her son is very innocent and she herself was never so innocent as him. Cersei then starts to worry that her son is too naïve and people will try to harm him but she wouldn't allow it and she would protect him and teach him how to be more cunning. In the second book when Tyrion had kidnapped Tommen and threatens to harm him if Cersei does anything to his prostitute, Cersei seems shocked and says “You won't do it”. When Cersei is imprisoned by the Faith, she is again worried about Tommen and one of her main motivations while doing the Walk of Shame is that she wants to see her son again and be together with him.

There is also enough evidence to show that she loves Jaime even though her feelings for him are very unhealthy an in Feast for Crows she starts mistreating him. For example, in the past she once kissed Tyrion even though she despises him simply because Jaime had asked her to do it. When Jaime is captured by the Starks, Tyrion approaches Cersei and tells her that he has a plan to release him. After she hears this, she allows him to take the position of Hand of the King and it should also be noted that she mutters his name when Tyrion mentions this. There is also a moment where Cersei tells to Tyrion that the reason why she hasn't killed him for kidnapping Tommen is because Jaime would hate her for it. There is also a scene where Jaime goes to explore the secret tunnels of the Red Keep with only one hand and when Cersei learns this, she yells at the guards for allowing Jaime to go in the dark tunnels with only one hand. In Feast for Crows their relationship becomes really strained (mostly because of Cersei's actions) and Cersei sends him away. However, we see Cersei's POV chapters both in Feast and Dance and there is enough evidence that she misses him and wants him back even though she tries to deny it to herself.

I should also point out that in the second book there are some moments in the second book where she treats Tyrion nicely. There is a moment where Tyrion brings her some good news and she is so happy that she hugs him, lifts him in the air and the two of them start laughing. They then drink a cup of wine to celebrate the good news. On another occasion, she apologizes for how she treated Tyrion in the past and kisses him. There is also a moment where one of the men from the King's Guard refuses to take orders from Tyrion and insults him but then Cersei steps in and reminds him that Tyrion is the Hand of the King and so, he must obey him. However, Tyrion kidnaps Tommen to use him as leverage against Cersei and she starts hating him again and wants to kill him.

Aside from those things, Cersei also has deep insecurities that her father doesn't appreciate her and is jealous of Jaime because he receives more attention simply because he is a boy even though he is younger than her. Tywin is Cersei's only parental figure because her mother died when she was 8. However, he was always cold to her and she tries to emulate him in order to impress him and because she believes that this is the right way to rule. A lot of her behavior, beliefs and actions are simply because she thinks that this is what her father would do. Cersei blames Tyrion for “killing” her mother because Tywin does the exact same thing. There is also a scene where Cersei is torturing a bard for information and she starts to feel remorse and wants to stop it. But then she forces herself to continue because she thinks that this is what her father would do but she still feels bad about it. This scene perfectly illustrates that Cersei probably would have been a better person if she had been raised by someone else who wasn't her father and there are many other moments in the books where she refers to her father and tries to act like him. In the scene where Cersei finds to corpse of Shae next to her father, she tries to convince herself that her father didn't sleep with Shae (even though it's obvious he did) because she likes to think that her father is so honorable that he would never betray his wife's memory by sleeping with another woman. This shows that Cersei has a lot of respect for her father, has daddy issues because she tries to emulate him and likes to think that her parents had such a loving relationship that her father would never sleep with other women even years after the death of her mother.

Cersei also has an insecurity to show any sort of weakness to anyone other than Jaime and the text explicitly mentions that he is the only one she shows her weakness to. In the very first chapter of Feast Cersei has a dream that she is entirely naked, and everyone is laughing at her. There is also a scene where after she thinks for a moment that Tommen is about to die, she starts crying and runs away because she doesn't want to show any sign of weakness to anyone. Cersei even gives an advice to Sansa that she should only love her children and no one else because otherwise she would get hurt in the cruel world which demonstrates her way of thinking.

In Feast Cersei also starts feeling lonely and she seeks friendship in one of the noblewomen of the Court. The reason for this is because Cersei never had any friends since she was 10 years old and after her son, Joffrey, died she starts feeling insecure and vulnerable. However, she doesn't treat her as a friend, she simply wants someone, so that she doesn't feel lonely.

There is a moment where we get flashbacks where we get flashbacks from Cersei's POV and we learn that she was sexually abused during her marriage to Robert. During these times, it's explicitly stated that Cersei felt powerless and it's clear that this contributed to her personality and her lust for power. When she remembers those times, she wonders why her husband liked to do it. Then she tries to force herself on her new “friend” simply because she wants to see if she is going to enjoy the experience. However, moments before she is about to do it, she stops because she realizes that she doesn't enjoy raping other people and leaves the woman alone. After this experience, she feels sad and more hollow inside than before.

In Feast we also get another flashback where it's revealed that as a 10-year-old she received a prophecy which foretells that all of her kids would die before her and that her younger brother would strangle her afterwards. This prophecy causes her to hate Tyrion even more because she thinks that he is going to kill her kids and then kill her as well. Throughout the fourth book, it's shown that she is very paranoid because of the prophecy and a lot of the bad things she does are simply because she wants to prevent it from happening for understandable reasons but after Joffrey dies, she becomes even more obsessed with stopping the prophecy from happening because she doesn't want this fate for herself or her other two kids. The prophecy is also the reason why she hates Tyrion and bullies him constantly.

Another reason why I don't think that Cersei is a Hate Sink is the Walk of Shame chapter in Dance. There, Cersei is paraded completely naked through the city by the Faith and the small folk throw dirt and rotten things at her and shout insults at her. The chapter is presented in excruciating detail from Cersei's POV and it's clear that the author wanted the readers to feel bad for her. During the chapter it's also heavily implied that Cersei feels a little remorse for some of the things she has done – like not doing anything to stop Ned's execution or how she treated Sansa. She even starts hallucinating about them. So, those are some of the reasons why I don't think book Cersei should be listed as a Hate Sink. There are probably that I am forgetting about right now but I think the ones that I listed are enough to disqualify her from this trope. I think that she is an Azula-type of character - someone the audience loves to hate but she is not written as a Hate Sink.

 So, I hope this explains why Cersei is a tragic character. She was born in a highly sexist society where she constantly had to see how her twin brother is treated differently only because of his gender, she lost her mother at a young age (if her treatment of Tyrion is any indication, she was very traumatized by her death), she was raised by Tywin Lannister who didn't really pay her much attention and she learned from him that in order to rule effectively, she has to show no mercy to anyone and be as ruthless as possible and we see that she really wants to impress her dad and feels deep insecurities about her relationship with him (her torture of the Blue Bard proves that a lot of her actions are simply because this is what she learned from her dad ans if she was raised by someone else, she probably would have been a better person.). At the age of 10 she learned that all her kids will die before her and she would follow them and a lot of the atrocities she commits are simply to prevent that prophecy and save her family (which is a relatable motivation). Then she was raped by her own husband (even if you don't consider it rape, it's clear that she is deeply traumatized by this). We also see the double sexist standard again because Robert is allowed to cheat on her while Cersei can't cheat on him or otherwise she and her children would be executed (this is why I don't blame her for her actions in the first book against Robert and Ned considering that they were driven out of self-preservation and if she didn't do them, she and her kids would have been executed for the crime of "cheating". Plus, she gave an opportunity to Ned Stark to return to Winter Fell but he refused her offer.)

So, there re a lot of aspects where I feel sympathy for her and I don't think she is an inherently person but despite my sympathy, I still think that she is pretty horrible but her backstory explains her personality.

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