Septa Lemore being Ashara Dayne, Elia Martell, Mellario of Norvos or Tyene's mother

[Odej]

There are several theories that believe Lemore is one of the women mentioned and I would like to shared my thoughts about it.

 

Septa Lemore is involved in Young Griff's plot. The boy Tyrion Lannister met on his journey through the Roine who claims to be Aegon Targaryen, son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Princess Elia Martell, who everyone thought was killed during King's Landing Sack along with his mother and older sister, Princess Rhaenys. For years the boy was hidden in Essos, raised by his father exiled friend, Jon Connington, where he was groomed to be the “perfect king” and Lemore's role was to instruct him in the Faith, since she is a septa, or at least claims to be.

 

Tyrion describes her as a woman in her 40s, attractive and with brown hair. She has stretch marks on her belly, which reveals that she was once pregnant.

 

George R R Martin want us to believe that Lemore is more than she appears and more than once hints about it in Tyrion Lannister's chapters.

 

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.”

 

Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?”

 

In Jon Connington's chapters there are also some hints that may indicate that Lemore has a dual identity.  He calls her “lady” and thinks of her the same way

 

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

 

When they were gone, Griff turned to the Halfmaester. "Ride back to the Shy Maid and return with Lady Lemore and Ser Rolly. We'll need Illyrio's chests as well. All the coin, and the armor. Give Yandry and Ysilla our thanks. Their part in this is done. They will not be forgotten when His Grace comes into his kingdom."

 

The prince arrived to join them four days later, riding at the head of a column of a hundred horse, with three elephants lumbering in his rear. Lady Lemore was with him, garbed once more in the white robes of a septa. Before them went Ser Rolly Duckfield, a snow-white cloak streaming from his shoulders.

 

The most popular identities for Lemore are:

 

1. Ashara Dayne

 2. Elia Martell

 3. Tyene's mother

 4. Melario of Norvos

 

 There are others, but I have disregarded them.

 

 

1. Ashara Dayne

 

Ashara was a dornish lady who was Princess Elia Martell's companion in the early years of her marriage with Prince Rhaegar, when they lived in Dragonstone. Ashara was also Sor Arthur Dayne’s sister, a member of Aerys II's Kinsguard and Prince Rhaegar's best friend, Elia's husband. Ashara is famous for her great beauty, her alleged affair with Ned Stark and for having thrown herself from a tower where she lived, facing the sea, at the end of Robert's Rebellion. Her alleged death happened after Ned Stark went Starfall, where she lived, to return her brother's sword, whom Ned supposedly killed. Barristan Selmy believes that Ashara was dishonored at the Harrenhal Tournament, became pregnant with a stillborn girl and this would have been the reason for her suicide.

 

Her body was never recovered.

 

But if she is Septa Lemore, she pretended to be dead all these years to go to Essos to look after Aegon and help prepare the boy to be king.

 

The level of closeness between Elia and Ashara to infer that she would do such a thing for the princess's child is unknown. Meera Reed says that Elia took a dozen ladies to serve her in the Tournament of Harrenhal which suggests the princess had several ladies in attendance. Ashara was merely the most famous 'cause her beauty and mysterious history. In addition to her relationship with Elia, her brother Arthur was  the princess's husband bff, her House is vassal of the Martells of Dorne and Dorne fought by the Targaryens during Robert's rebellion. And they lost with them.

 

The end of the Rebellion was really bad for Ashara. The side her House, friends and countrymen fought for lost, her mate Elia and her children were brutally murdered (being close or not knowing it must have been harrowing), her brother died and possibly other members of her family as well. Her alleged boyfriend, Ned, married someone else and killed her brother. If the Stark she was involved with was Brandon, Ned's older brother, he was also killed and Ahara possibly conceived a daughter when she a was unmarried lady, scandalous for a noble woman, and the child died. All of this is enough to mess with a young woman's head, it would not be implausible that she saw suicide as the only way out of all this misery.

 

The probable cause of her death was because she threw herself overboard a tower at Starfall, which suggests that there were witnesses to the act. It would have been very difficult for her to have survived the fall. Or was it a setup? Woud be possible for others to be involved in her escape plan and tell to everybody the story that Ashara threw herself from a tower. As her body was not found the story could not be disputed and Ashara would be dead to Westeros. The Sack of King's Landing happened before Ned Stark's arrival to Starfall and alleged Ashara’s suicide. Before or after Ned arrived Varys may have contacted Ashara and told her that he had saved Aegon, but the girl may also have planned to escape by herself. Determined to leave Dorne and her pain behind without knowing the eunuch's plans. Varys may have found her later and convinced the young woman to join the Young Griff's conspiracy.

 

How Varys could have convinced her is hard to conjecture. Just as it is difficult to say what he did to make Jon Connington himself believe in him. For all Griff knew, Varys had contributed more to the Targaryen's collapse than otherwise by fueling Aerys II's madness and pitting him against Rhaegar, JonCon's precious silver prince.

 

Perhaps Connington's desperate desire to make amends for his mistake in the Battle of the Bells was enough to make him believe. After all, he blames himself for not killing Robert when he had the chance and Robert ended up killing his beloved prince on the Trident. Something similar may have happened to Ashara. For her, the chance to save, educate, and crown the lost child of a dear friend or escape her own pain through a higher purpose on the other side of the world (or both) ended up motivating her to get into it. After all, what do we know about Ashara Dayne's character and motivations to reasonably assume much further about her?

 

Whatever the reason, considering that Varys managed to bring the girl to his cause and that she became Lemore it comes up against one issue the always bothered me: Jon Connington. He knew Ashara Dayne and it would be unlikely if he didn't recognize her. Of course, if Ashara were Lemore and Connington thought explicitly about it there would be no mystery, but the author could leave clues. He's done this before.

 

For example, Ned never thinks of Jon Snow as his own son but rather as one of his blood which suggests that he is not actually the boy's father without throwing it open.

 

There is no Connington thought about Ashara being dead. He also calls Lemore lady,  Ashara was a lady, but other than that, nothing in Connington's thoughts connects Lemore to Ashara. Nothing suggests that she is an old acquaintance. There's another issue that has already been discussed at length, JonCon and Tyrion never described Lemore with Ashara Dayne's most striking physical feature, her violet eyes. And for God's sake, don't say Tyrion didn't notice because he was to much concentrating on watching her naked. Lemore is not naked all the time.

 

To some it may seem too little to use as an argument the lack of a character's eye color description to establish that she can't secretly be another, but Ashara's case is special. Her exceptional eye color was her most famous and striking physical feature. Every time her appearance was described in the books her eyes are mentioned.

 

I think that of all the possible ladies the could be Lemore, Ashara would be the most likely. Martin could use the silent argument about Lemore's eyes and reveal that she is Ashara. I would find it crude, but it wouldn't be unlikely.

 

2. Elia Martell

 

Elia was Prince Rhaegar's wife and had two children with him, Rhaenys and Aegon. She and her children died in the Red Keep during the The Sack of King's Landing, Rhaenys was 2-3 years old and Aegon was a baby. Young Griff claims that Varys switched the babies before Gregor Clegane arrived to murder mother and child, took Aegon and gave a random baby to his mother. “Elia is Septan Lemore" believes that during this exchange of babies, Elia also escaped and another woman was placed in her place with the fake baby. So this woman and the baby with her would have been killed by Gregor and gone unnoticed when Tywin presented their bodies. Gregor smashed Aegon's head against a wall making his face unrecognizable. Nothing is said about the state of Elia's body, but while killing Oberyn Gregor screamed that he crushed the princess's head. If that is true, it could make her boby as hard to identify as her son.

 

The problem with this situation is that Varys and Elia couldn't anticipate that woman and baby would be brutally murdered to the point where it was difficult to identify them. Elia's daughter Rhaenys was recognized, but Aegon had his skull crushed and few could stand to look at him. He was just a baby who was supposed to spend a lot of time with just his mother, nurse and a few servants.  Even if he hadn't had his head crushed, his features wouldn't have been so defined and known to have much doubt about his body identity, especially when being introduced along with his recognized sister. But an adult princess known for most of the Westeros nobility exchanged for another woman who ended up being killed in her place would hardly go unnoticed when the body was presented.

 

To secure the throne for Robert, Rhaenys and Aegon had to die for being Rhaegar's children. Elia alive would not be a problem for the rebels, but her disappearance in the background and a foreign body in her place would be enough to suppose that if Elia escaped that way, who would guarantee that the bodies of the children presented to Robert, Aegon’s body in particular, was it really Rhaegar's children? Was it believable that the princess had abandoned her children like this when she had evidently made a whole scheme to run away and leave someone else in her place?

 

It was an unnecessary risk. The baby was what really mattered for Varys' purposes, it was safest to take him and get away without the equation of a double for Elia, a distressed mother who sure as hell wouldn't want to leave her daughter behind. Personally, I don't believe Varys would even waste his time trying to convince Elia to give him her son. This could delay and hamper the process. If he did change the babies, I believe he took advantage of a time Aegon was alone, maybe spleeping in the nursery, and took him. As a mother, Elia would surely notice that the child was not hers, but what could she do after the exchange was made?

 

But Lemore being Elia Martell also runs into the same problem as Ashara Dayne: Jon Connington knew her and if he doesn't think about Ashara he thinks about Elia more than once. The excerpt that interests me most in this case is this:

 

JonCon’s POV

 

“Others might claim that the realm was lost when Prince Rhaegar fell to Robert’s warhammer on the Trident, but the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince.”

 

Reflecting about how different things might have been if he had killed Robert at the Battle of the Bells, JonCon wistfully recalls the members of the royal family who perished with the Rebellion excluding Aegon, Viserys and Daenerys, the survivors. That is, he thinks of Elia as a dead woman.

 

Connington also thinks in Lemore as someone he likes, whereas he thinks of Elia with contempt for considering her weak and sickly person unworthy of Rhaegar.

 

“Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her.”

 

 Considering all of this, I strongly dismiss the idea that Elia Martell is Septan Lemore.

 

3. Tyene's mother

 

Tyene Sand is one of Prince Oberyn Martell's eight bastard daughters. Tyene's mother was a septa, which fits in with Lemore, but Prince Oberyn's daughter is described as a beautiful girl with blond hair and blue eyes. Her physical appearence suggest that she looks like her mother, as Prince Oberyn had black hair and balck eyes. Thus, Tyene's mother is most likely blonde like her daughter, while Lemore hair is described as brown.

 

It is also very likely that Tyene's mother is in Dorne or in another place in Westeros, as her daughter visits her. Arianne Martell, Tyene's cousin, mentions at least once that Tyene visited her mother with her. If Lemore is Tyene's mother it would be difficult and dangerous for her to travel across the sea whenever her daughter wanted to visit her. And that would also draw attention to her and consequently to Young Griff.

 

I don't have any much to say about this theory, in my opinion it is the most boring of all.

 

4. Melllario of  Norvos

 

Mellario is the wife of Prince Doran Martell and the mother of his three children, Arianne, Quentyn and Tystane. She is a foreign woman from Norvos, in Essos. Doran met her on a trip to her land, they fell in love and Mellario returned with him to Dorne, where they were married.

 

However, their marriege wasn't a happy one. Westeros' culture is very different from Norvos and this created conflicts between Doran and Mellario. The greatest one was when Doran sent Quentyn, at a very young age, away from home to be raised by Lord Anders Yronwood to repair the snub Prince Oberyn had done to his family. Mellario was furious, in Norvos you don't raise children far from home, and she never forgave Doran for that. Some time later, Doran wanted Arianne to serve in Tyrosh, but Mellario threatened to hurt herself if Doran took another child from her, and he eventually relented.

Their relationship deteriorated further and Mellario eventually moved back to Norvos, but as the Prince of Dorne, Doran was able to stay with his children while Mellario had to leave them, which was bitter for her. We do not know when Mellario left Dorne, but it must been in or after 291 ‘cause when Arianne was fourteen her mother was still in Dorne.

 

Arys Oakheart’s POV

 

Her eyes were bold and black as sin, unflinching. “I have known the truth since I was four-and-ten, since the day that I went to my father’s solar to give him a good night kiss, and found him gone. My mother had sent for him, I learned later. He’d left a candle burning. When I went to blow it out, I found a letter lying incomplete beside it, a letter to my brother Quentyn, off at Yronwood. My father told Quentyn that he must do all that his maester and his master-at-arms required of him, because ‘one day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne, and a ruler must be strong of mind and body.’” A tear crept down Arianne’s soft cheek. “My father’s words, written in his own hand. They burned themselves into my memory. I cried myself to sleep that night, and many nights thereafter.”

 

It's fair to say that Mellario has no love for Westeros, her marriage had become so unbearable for her that Mellario decided to leave, even if it meant leaving her children behind. Why then would she get involved in a conspiracy to place her husband's nephew on the iron throne? Choosing to take care of Aegon, hiding herself for years, when she had left her own children in Westeros doesn't sound convincing. Why would she believe Varys and why would Varys seek her out?

 

Varys could choose Mellario for his cause to convince Doran that the young Griff was indeed Aegon by having someone he trusted, his wife, by his side, but it is safe to say that Mellario did not know Prince Aegon. Why her being with him would testify his authenticity?

 

As an aunt by marriage, Mellario might have reason to be happy if her nephew was alive. Doran suffered a lot with the death of Elia and her children, it would be natural that his wife would want to comfort him in this pain, but their marriage was destroyed by their cultural diferences, she had no reason to risk her life in a conspiracy to putt Aegon on the iron throne when love by her childdren was not enough for Mellario to remain in Westeros. 

 

There are those who claim that Mellario and Aegon are Blackfyre descendants, that she knew Ilyrio or Varys and then got into the conspiracy with young Griff, but that doesn't seem likely either.

 

When George R R Martin wants to make us distrust a character's identity he gives us clues and there is none, whether in thought, dialogue, or foreshadown, to imply that Mellario has a secret ancestry.

 

Areo Hotan was her family's bodyguard in Norvos and accompanied Mellario to Dorne. In Norvos children are not raised far from home so it can be said that, barring possible travels as an adult, she had spent most of her life in her homeland before go to Dorne. Mellario became engaged to Doran in 273 AC and stayed in Dorne for at least 17 years. She had Arianne in 276, Quentyn in 281 and Trystane in 287. She was in Dorne by 291. So years after the fall of the Targaryens, when Young was about 9, she still remained in Dorne. When was that the moment Varys contacted her and tell about his plans? Or did she already know and just needed an excuse to go?

 

According to maester Pycelle Varys was born in Lys. As a child, he traveled with a troupe of mummers through the free cities, Oldtown and King's Landing. In Myr he was sold and castrated and there became a famous thief. He moved to Pentos where he met Ilyrio and there the two prospered. Nothing suggests a connection between the two of them with Norvos or with someone there.

 

There is no clue, NONE, however slight it may indicate a connection between Mellario, Ilyrio and Varys. When Mellario married Doran the Targaryens were still in power, Elia and Rhaegar had not even married, Varys would only arrive at Aerys II's court 5 years later Mellario arrived in Westeros, in 278 AC, and before that there was no reason to suppose that he would one day.

 

So, what is the clue?

 

If Jon Connington got to know Mellario it was probably superficial. If she were Lemore, it wouldn't be absurd for him not to recognize her after years of not seeing her. Unlike Ashara or Elia, his thoughts are not importante in Mellario’s case, but the whole analysis of what we know about her weighs against that theory. Aegon being true or false, there is nothing to suggest Mellario involvement with him and nothing that links Mellario to Lemore.

 

I believe is safe to say this theory isn't based in any solid argument, but on speculation on top of speculation.

 

In conclusion, Septa Lemore is definitely someone. Martin gives a lot of hints that he wants us to question her identity, but for once (except maybe for Ashara) I think the most popular theories about it have missed.

[Willam Stark]

I don't think she is any of them, I have my own opinion on her. I think she's Illyrio's second wife and that her full name is Serra Blackfyre.

I believe that Young Griff is her and Illyrio's son, but because he is supposed to be Rhaegar and Elia's son, she has to hide her identity in order to avoid suspicions about his real identity (she dyes her hair in brown just like Daemon II Blackfyre did before her).

This would explain the Blackfyre's hints, specially the one about the "contract of blood", her active involvement in the plot and other things.

 

[asongofheresy]

Lemore is indeed a mystery, but I will admit every theory of her identity has its setbacks, even the Serra one, since Tyrion saw Serras picture from Illyrio, with her blonde hair and blue eyes, and we know Serra lost her hands and feet before dying of grey sickness. Another problem with Serra is that if she really was last of Blackfyres descendants, they wouldn't let her be a pleasure slave, if you want to claim Aegon is a Blackfyre hair and being raised in a super pompous manner, you have to admit Blackfyres before him didn't become slaves. I rather think Serra is a descendant of Saera Targaryen, and her Targaryen blood doesn't matter much since it is diluted. Now, who could Lemore be then? I have no idea. 

[Willam Stark]

8 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

every theory of her identity has its setbacks

Of course since we don't have all the elements needed to find her identity, we can only speculate.

I'm just sharing my own thoughts here, nothing more.

10 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

saw Serras picture from Illyrio, with her blonde hair and blue eyes

She was much younger than she is now if I'm correct, her hair is dyed and we don't know the eyes color of Lemore, they may be blue as well.

Keep in mind that GRRM is not only hiding her identity from the characters, but also from us, he won't give us all the infos we need.

19 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Another problem with Serra is that if she really was last of Blackfyres descendants, they wouldn't let her be a pleasure slave

I think she was sold as a pleasure slave by Maelys the Monstrous to finance his campaign, he did it to get rid of her.

25 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

if you want to claim Aegon is a Blackfyre hair and being raised in a super pompous manner, you have to admit Blackfyres before him didn't become slaves.

I don't need to, those options aren't mutually exclusive.

[EggBlue]

it's all got to do with who our famous lad is... I think it goes either of these ways:

1) YG = Aegon Targaryen ----> Lemore = Ashara Dayne

2) YG = Aegon Blackfyre ----> Lemore = his mother or someone tied to Blackfyres 

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

we know Serra lost her hands and feet before dying of grey sickness.

I forgot this one, Illyrio lied here, just like when he said to Tyrion that Viserys III wanted to take Dany's maidenhead when she married Drogo and he had to post guards upon her door to prevent this from happening. They rode away from Viserys III this night, Illyrio doesn't trust Tyrion and tells him only what he wants him to know and lies when he feels the needs to do it.

[Ginger]

2 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

I think she's Illyrio's second wife and that her full name is Serra Blackfyre.

(she dyes her hair in brown just like Daemon II Blackfyre did before her).

This is convincing.

The timeline also says that the last Blackfyre invasion was 40 years ago. Septa Lemore is above 40 years old, but not much.

My only issue is this: "After her death, Illyrio kept her stone hands in his bedchamber, and also kept a silver locket with a painting of her inside."

The question is whether Illyrio is so fascinated by oddities that he likes keeping stone hands in his bed chambers. Then he uses them as a convincing pretext to claim that Serra is dead.

Perhaps one of the bedwarmers of Illyrio got the plague, and Illyrio wanted to keep the most affected parts of her body due to being "beautiful" in his own eyes.

[Odej]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

I forgot this one, Illyrio lied here, just like when he said to Tyrion that Viserys III wanted to take Dany's maidenhead when she married Drogo and he had to post guards upon her door to prevent this from happening. They rode away from Viserys III this night, Illyrio doesn't trust Tyrion and tells him only what he wants him to know and lies when he feels the needs to do it.

Ilyrio didn't say to Tyrion that Viserys wanted to take Daenerys maidenhead at the night of her wed to Drogo. He said it was the night before the wed.

Tyrion II, ADWD:

"Viserys lusted for his father's throne, but he lustes for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning."

[chrisdaw]

She's Ashara, and it plays in with a lot of things, including most interestingly Barristan.

Quote

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan will be team Dany. His lady love back from the dead will be team Aegon. Dany and Aegon will dance. The smallfolk speak of Barristan the Bold like Aemon the Dragonknight, he provides instant legitimacy to whoever he rides with.

Will he get the chance to reveal his love to Ashara? Before the dance begins might there be a tourney? A second chance for Barristan to win and crown her queen of love and beauty? Might Ashara fall for the old knight, or see in him the chance to further legitimise her boy king by enticing Barristan to her side? Could Barristan betray Dany? Turn cloak? Three betrayals she will know, and she the Mad King's daughter, dragons plant no trees, fire and blood...

Quote

In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.

. . .

But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

With Ashara in his ear, and Dany turning . . . Targaryen shall we say, perhaps Barristan will endeavour not to make the same mistake twice. In doing so though might he become that which he dislikes the most.

Quote

He did not like the taste of this. It smelled of deceit, of whispers and lies and plots hatched in the dark, all the things he'd hoped to leave behind with the Spider and Lord Littlefinger and their ilk. Barristan Selmy was not a bookish man, but he had often glanced through the pages of the White Book, where the deeds of his predecessors had been recorded. Some had been heroes, some weaklings, knaves, or cravens. Most were only men—quicker and stronger than most, more skilled with sword and shield, but still prey to pride, ambition, lust, love, anger, jealousy, greed for gold, hunger for power, and all the other failings that afflicted lesser mortals. The best of them overcame their flaws, did their duty, and died with their swords in their hands. The worst …

The worst were those who played the game of thrones.

Drama everywhere. What stories are made of.

[Frey family reunion]

I would add two to the list: Lady Jeyne Swann and the Whent maid.

[Willam Stark]

8 hours ago, Odej said:

Ilyrio didn't say to Tyrion that Viserys wanted to take Daenerys maidenhead at the night of her wed to Drogo. He said it was the night before the wed.

Tyrion II, ADWD:

"Viserys lusted for his father's throne, but he lustes for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning."

Crap ! I missed that part, my bad.

Thanks for the correction.

[Aebram]

Very nice analysis, Odej, thanks.

Thinking about it some more, it occurs to me that Lemore probably does not have purple eyes.

Tyrion enjoyed looking at Lemore.  If her eyes were purple, he surely would have noticed.  Purple eyes are rare, and are linked to the aristocracy. Seeing purple eyes would have set Tyrion's mind to musing over this clue to her identity. And we would have read about this in the text, along with all his other musings about her.

If Lemore's eyes are purple, it means that GRRM chose not to tell us that Tyrion noticed it, though he did tell us many of Tyrion's other, less important thoughts about her.  That seems sort of unfair ... Would GRRM do that just to keep a secret?

It does seem clear that Lemore is someone more than she appears. Maybe we need to open our minds and consider some ideas that we've overlooked until now. I wonder if her name could be a clue?  Arstan = Barritan, Alleras = Sarella ... what can we get by rearranging her name, or adding a few letters? 

Also, the fact that she is sometimes referred to as Lady Lemore is a hint that she is highborn; she's not a common septa. Checking the text, I see that she is referred to as "Septa Lemore" from her first appearance thru Chapter 18.  After that she is "Lady Lemore," even when dressed in a septa's robe.  Coincidence? I think not ...

[Mister Smikes]

6 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Tyrion enjoyed looking at Lemore.  If her eyes were purple, he surely would have noticed. 

I disagree.  Love is one thing; lust another.  Purple eyes are not that noticeable, else Egg's bald head would not have been much of a disguise.

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/27/2021 at 3:19 PM, Willam Stark said:

I don't think she is any of them, I have my own opinion on her. I think she's Illyrio's second wife and that her full name is Serra Blackfyre.

I believe that Young Griff is her and Illyrio's son,

I would say Lemore is Serra & Illyrio's daughter.    Young Griff is Serra & Illyrio's grandson.

We know a character with soft white hands, and it isn't Lemore.

On 10/27/2021 at 3:19 PM, Willam Stark said:

but because he is supposed to be Rhaegar and Elia's son, she has to hide her identity in order to avoid suspicions about his real identity (she dyes her hair in brown just like Daemon II Blackfyre did before her).

This would explain the Blackfyre's hints, specially the one about the "contract of blood", her active involvement in the plot and other things.

All this I agree with.

[Aebram]

Quote

Purple eyes are not that noticeable, else Egg's bald head would not have been much of a disguise.

Hmmm, it's true that Lemore's eyes were not Tyrion's favorite part of her to look at.  :^)  But I don't think the comparison to Egg is fair. 

At the time of the Dunk & Egg stories, after some 200 years of Targeryen rule, there were probably a fair number of purple-eyed people scattered around Westeros.  Egg was a small boy serving as a squire to a hedge knight.  People who noticed his eyes would think him just another bastard of some Targeryen, or perhaps a Velaryon or Dayne, as he passed through their inn or village.

Tyrion, on the other hand, was a clever, well-educated man in the midst of a grand conspiracy, who knew that some of his fellow travelers were using false identities. And he spent plenty of time in close company with Lemore. If she had purple eyes, he would have noticed, and he would have thought about the implications.

[Mister Smikes]

29 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Tyrion, on the other hand, was a clever, well-educated man in the midst of a grand conspiracy, who knew that some of his fellow travelers were using false identities. And he spent plenty of time in close company with Lemore. If she had purple eyes, he would have noticed, and he would have thought about the implications.

Maybe if he was interested in her secrets he would have noticed.  But the text explicitly says he is not interested in her secrets.  He's too busy congratulating himself for realizing that Young Griff is Aegon to spend time trying to figure out that Young Griff is not Aegon.  He might not even care if he wasn't.  

If he did notice eye color, what would he have noticed?  When he notices Young Griff's eye color, it is sometimes blue and at other times black.

I don't think Lemore is Ashara, but I do think she is Young Griff's mother.

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/27/2021 at 5:35 PM, Ginger said:

The question is whether Illyrio is so fascinated by oddities that he likes keeping stone hands in his bed chambers. Then he uses them as a convincing pretext to claim that Serra is dead.

The latter, IMHO.  Greyscale is a story that nobody wants to investigate.  

Tell people that your wife is sick with greyscale, and who will want to visit?  Tell them that she is dead of greyscale, and who will want to examine the corpse?

Nah.  Serra was only pretending to be dead.  She actually went to King's Landing, circa 278, to whisper in the ear of the Mad King.

Serra's daughter, Mellario, no longer needed her at that point, having married Doran Martell some years earlier.

Grandpa Illyrio, Grandma Varys, Mommy Mellario, Daddy Doran, and little baby Quentyn a/k/a Young Griff a/k/a Aegon VI are all one big happy Blackfyre family.  Of course, they had to send another lad to the Yronwoods in Quentyn's place.

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

4. Melllario of  Norvos

Mellario is the wife of Prince Doran Martell and the mother of his three children, Arianne, Quentyn and Tystane. She is a foreign woman from Norvos, in Essos. Doran met her on a trip to her land, they fell in love and Mellario returned with him to Dorne, where they were married.

Norvos, did you say?  Funny, but when we rendezvous with Young Griff & Co. on the Shy Maid, it seems that at least some of the Company are coming from Norvos.  The evidence of this is actually quite overwhelming.  But GRRM takes care never ever to mention the name "Norvos".  Do you think that might be a clue?  Because it sure looks like a clue to me!

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

However, their marriege wasn't a happy one. Westeros' culture is very different from Norvos and this created conflicts between Doran and Mellario. The greatest one was when Doran sent Quentyn, at a very young age, away from home to be raised by Lord Anders Yronwood to repair the snub Prince Oberyn had done to his family. Mellario was furious, in Norvos you don't raise children far from home, and she never forgave Doran for that. Some time later, Doran wanted Arianne to serve in Tyrosh, but Mellario threatened to hurt herself if Doran took another child from her, and he eventually relented.

Their relationship deteriorated further and Mellario eventually moved back to Norvos, but as the Prince of Dorne, Doran was able to stay with his children while Mellario had to leave them, which was bitter for her.

So.  Mellario is mad about being separated from her children.  So she spends all her time in Norvos, separated from all of her children?  Why?   Doran and Mellario do not seem to be so estranged that Doran would deny her access to her children.   So what is going on?

The only answer that makes sense is that she is in Norvos in order to be with one of her children, and she is upset that she has to be separated from the other two.

And, by curious random coincidence, Mellario just happens to have a son who was born in 281, the same year that Baby Aegon was born.

She is in Norvos to be with Quentyn.  And some other lad got sent to the Yronwoods in Quentyn's place.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

We do not know when Mellario left Dorne, but it must been in or after 291 ‘cause when Arianne was fourteen her mother was still in Dorne.

Arys Oakheart’s POV

Her eyes were bold and black as sin, unflinching. “I have known the truth since I was four-and-ten, since the day that I went to my father’s solar to give him a good night kiss, and found him gone. My mother had sent for him, I learned later. He’d left a candle burning. When I went to blow it out, I found a letter lying incomplete beside it, a letter to my brother Quentyn, off at Yronwood. My father told Quentyn that he must do all that his maester and his master-at-arms required of him, because ‘one day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne, and a ruler must be strong of mind and body.’” A tear crept down Arianne’s soft cheek. “My father’s words, written in his own hand. They burned themselves into my memory. I cried myself to sleep that night, and many nights thereafter.”

 

Quentyn and his cousin Aegon are both 10 years old at this time.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

It's fair to say that Mellario has no love for Westeros, her marriage had become so unbearable for her that Mellario decided to leave, even if it meant leaving her children behind.

Makes no sense.  What's the problem?  Can she not run fast enough to get away from Doran?

Nope.  She may be upset about her other children, but she is in Norvos to be with her son, the real Quentyn Martell.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

Why then would she get involved in a conspiracy to place her husband's nephew on the iron throne?

Obviously, she's involved in a conspiracy to put her son on the Iron Throne, in place of her husband's nephew.  Her husband's nephew is probably the lad that got sent to the Yronwoods.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

Choosing to take care of Aegon, hiding herself for years, when she had left her own children in Westeros doesn't sound convincing. Why would she believe Varys and why would Varys seek her out?

Varys (Serra) is her mom.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

When George R R Martin wants to make us distrust a character's identity he gives us clues and there is none, whether in thought, dialogue, or foreshadown, to imply that Mellario has a secret ancestry.

Not even the fact that Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs, a trait convenient for hiding Valyrian traits?

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

 Areo Hotan was her family's bodyguard in Norvos and accompanied Mellario to Dorne. In Norvos children are not raised far from home so it can be said that, barring possible travels as an adult, she had spent most of her life in her homeland before go to Dorne. Mellario became engaged to Doran in 273 AC and stayed in Dorne for at least 17 years. She had Arianne in 276, Quentyn in 281 and Trystane in 287. She was in Dorne by 291. So years after the fall of the Targaryens, when Young was about 9, she still remained in Dorne. When was that the moment Varys contacted her and tell about his plans? Or did she already know and just needed an excuse to go?

Lemore, Illyrio and Young Griff live not too far from each other, and consider each other to be almost a family in some sense.  Illyrio thinks of Young Griff as "our lad", and is, I suppose, in fact his grandson.  

And one of Lemore's identities is "merchant's daughter."  What merchant, if not Illyrio?

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

According to maester Pycelle Varys was born in Lys. As a child, he traveled with a troupe of mummers through the free cities, Oldtown and King's Landing. In Myr he was sold and castrated and there became a famous thief. He moved to Pentos where he met Ilyrio and there the two prospered. Nothing suggests a connection between the two of them with Norvos or with someone there.

Varys is connected to Illyrio, who in turn is connected to Young Griff & Co., who are evidently stationed in Norvos.  

Possibly Serra Blackfyre was born in Lys.  Possibly she did travel in a troupe of mummers.  Obviously Serra did meet Illyrio.  The part about having her cock and balls completely cut off would likely not be true, but is a convenient story for a "eunuch" who never had a cock and balls to begin with.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

 There is no clue, NONE, however slight it may indicate a connection between Mellario, Ilyrio and Varys.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

When Mellario married Doran the Targaryens were still in power, Elia and Rhaegar had not even married, Varys would only arrive at Aerys II's court 5 years later Mellario arrived in Westeros, in 278 AC, and before that there was no reason to suppose that he would one day.

Well I guess they married for love, like GRRM says.

On 10/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Odej said:

 In conclusion, Septa Lemore is definitely someone. 

Mellario.  Obviously.  None of the other candidates come even close.

[StarksInTheNorth]

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I disagree.  Love is one thing; lust another.  Purple eyes are not that noticeable, else Egg's bald head would not have been much of a disguise.

I generally hate all Lemore theories and idea I like most is "Lemore is a septa who gave birth but we don't know who her child is and never will."

But I would like to point out that the environment can drastically change perception of eye color and in the deep green-blue area of the Rhoyne, deep purple eyes could be brown or indigo and go unnoticed;

[Odej]

9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Norvos, did you say?  Funny, but when we rendezvous with Young Griff & Co. on the Shy Maid, it seems that at least some of the Company are coming from Norvos.  The evidence of this is actually quite overwhelming.  But GRRM takes care never ever to mention the name "Norvos".  Do you think that might be a clue?  Because it sure looks like a clue to me!

So.  Mellario is mad about being separated from her children.  So she spends all her time in Norvos, separated from all of her children?  Why?   Doran and Mellario do not seem to be so estranged that Doran would deny her access to her children.   So what is going on?

The only answer that makes sense is that she is in Norvos in order to be with one of her children, and she is upset that she has to be separated from the other two.

And, by curious random coincidence, Mellario just happens to have a son who was born in 281, the same year that Baby Aegon was born.

She is in Norvos to be with Quentyn.  And some other lad got sent to the Yronwoods in Quentyn's place.

Quentyn and his cousin Aegon are both 10 years old at this time.

Makes no sense.  What's the problem?  Can she not run fast enough to get away from Doran?

Nope.  She may be upset about her other children, but she is in Norvos to be with her son, the real Quentyn Martell.

Obviously, she's involved in a conspiracy to put her son on the Iron Throne, in place of her husband's nephew.  Her husband's nephew is probably the lad that got sent to the Yronwoods.

Varys (Serra) is her mom.

Not even the fact that Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs, a trait convenient for hiding Valyrian traits?

Lemore, Illyrio and Young Griff live not too far from each other, and consider each other to be almost a family in some sense.  Illyrio thinks of Young Griff as "our lad", and is, I suppose, in fact his grandson.  

And one of Lemore's identities is "merchant's daughter."  What merchant, if not Illyrio?

Varys is connected to Illyrio, who in turn is connected to Young Griff & Co., who are evidently stationed in Norvos.  

Possibly Serra Blackfyre was born in Lys.  Possibly she did travel in a troupe of mummers.  Obviously Serra did meet Illyrio.  The part about having her cock and balls completely cut off would likely not be true, but is a convenient story for a "eunuch" who never had a cock and balls to begin with.

Well I guess they married for love, like GRRM says.

Mellario.  Obviously.  None of the other candidates come even close.

Jesus Christ! This makes absolute no fucking sense.