Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[Tucu]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Why did Martin add that detail into the world book?  Why make a distinction from the book of just placing it in her lap?  It means he didn't get off his horse and he handed to her from the end of a weapon.   It seems almost disdainful; upstairs/downstairs. 

The accusation of conspiracy by Staunton might highlight Lyanna's link to another one of the tumble down towers in the books. Staunton castle is Rook's Rest near Cracklaw Point (and the Whispers). All the details we have about House Staunton point towards pieces in a game of chess (Howard Staunton being a chess master, rook being a piece in chess and the chequy pattern in House Staunton sigil)

While Brienne is searching for a Stark lady she reaches The Whispers where there is a tumbledown tower and young weirwood:

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a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches

 

[alienarea]

Which leads me to the question whether Lyanna died much earlier, i.e. rather in the beginning of the war, and not in Dorne?

And maybe Ned knew this all the time?

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Which leads me to the question whether Lyanna died much earlier, i.e. rather in the beginning of the war, and not in Dorne?

And maybe Ned knew this all the time?

Possible. To the tumbledown tower and the lady weirwood we have to add the smuggler's cove that exist in the Whispers. Ned the smuggler of pregnant ladies?

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches

I completely missed the chess connection to House Staunton.  Coincidently, I was just thinking about Theon's dream and Lyanna's white dress.

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A Clash of Kings - Theon V

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

I wonder if Lyanna was dressed as a Septa.

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 Holy brothers often wear robes of brown, dun, or green.^[6]Holy sisters can wear robes of white, blue, or grey.  

Septas typically dress in white robes^[31][33] with woven seven-color belts.

Brothers can serve at septries,[25][46] monastic communities of the Faith similar to monasteries. Some holy brothers wear the iron hammer of the Smith about their neck.[31][27] The brothers live in penitence, quiet contemplation, and prayer at these septries, and they often take vows of silence. The leader of the community, the Elder Brother, is assisted by proctors.[46] Motherhouses are corresponding communities for women.[51]

 

Faith of the Seven - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

Cloister:

- having or enclosed by a cloister, as in a monastery

- kept away from the outside world, sheltered

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A motherhouse is a monastic community of the Faith of the Seven for septas[1] and silent sisters,[2] similar to a convent. A similar community for men is the septry.

Humfrey I Teague, King of the Rivers and the Hills, founded septs and motherhouses in the riverlands in his efforts to stamp out worship of the old gods.[3] Merle I Gardener, King of the Reach, encouraged construction of septries, septs and motherhouses in the Reach.[4]

Princess Rhaella Targaryen was a novice at the motherhouse attached the Starry Sept in Oldtown. Septa Karolyn prevented Ser Orryn Baratheon from absconding with the girl.[5]

Queen Elinor Costayne gave up all claims to nobility later in life, becoming Mother Elinor at the great motherhouse in Lannisport.[6]

In 54 AC Queen Alysanne Targaryen was hosted by silent sisters at their motherhouse in Oldtown.[2]

Maegelle Targaryen was a pious princess who became a septa. Her sister Saera, however, ran away from the Oldtown motherhouse in 85 AC while still a novice.[7]

During the Dance of the Dragons, Prince Aemond Targaryen used Vhagar to destroy the motherhouse at Bechester.[8]

Lady Jeyne Arryn died at the Motherhouse of Maris in Gulltown in 134 AC.[9]

 

Motherhouse - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

 

 

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Possible. To the tumbledown tower and the lady weirwood we have to add the smuggler's cove that exist in the Whispers. Ned the smuggler of pregnant ladies?

Maybe we should look into evil Ned?

He planned the whole thing with Jon Arryn so he would become Lord of Winterfell instead of Brandon.

Jon Snow is a planned bastard that serves as a distraction and for creating "Honorable Ned", so nobody would look into Ned hiding Lyanna with Howland and setting up Brandon to ride for KL.

That's why Ned stayed away from Robert after the war. He had all the freedom he wanted as Lord of Winterfell, and as long as nobody went looking, he would never be found out.

We'll never know how he murdered Howland and disposed the body.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Possible. To the tumbledown tower and the lady weirwood we have to add the smuggler's cove that exist in the Whispers. Ned the smuggler of pregnant ladies?

OMG! Or children and their milk mothers.

The geography is interesting considering the area where Lyanna disappeared and Targaryen loyalties.:

Crackclaw Point - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

So was Lyanna taken by Rhaegar when he fell upon her and then hidden in a motherhouse in a region loyal to Targs to stop her from marrying Robert?  Someone always talks!

 

 

[Black Crow]

Identifying the Winter Rose as Hellebore raises some interesting questions

Its clearly not as we originally assumed, unique to Winterfell, which obviously explains its availability at Harrenhal - it didn't need to be fetched from the glasshouses at Winterfell.

That's not to prevent the Starks adopting it as a badge and it being accordingly significant when Rhaegar chose to present it - all it would have required would have been a suitably primed servant, but...

Why might it be significant to the Starks in the first place? Is it simply because it is a winter flower and so appropriate in itself, or, given its other characteristics is there also a deeper significance? I'm also mindful of the storm of blue petals and the blue eyes of death in Ned's dream.

And lastly, why has it taken ten years of heresy to figure this one out ?

[LynnS]

56 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And lastly, why has it taken ten years of heresy to figure this one out ?

LOL! It's a saturnalia miracle.  Something tells me Wolfmaid would love it.

I'm not so sure that the Hellibore would have been the only choice of flower or that something hadn't been brought in from the Reach to provide a more appropriate flower garland than a flower that is probably known for its toxicity.  The crown was literally and symbolically poison.  I imagine it would be the Whents who present the crown to the champion, but we can't forget that Aerys was also there and he may have presented the crown to Rhaegar taking precedence as king.  As you say, all it takes is a servant.

Edit:  If Martin is playing with the language of flowers and Robert presents the biggest threat to iron throne since the Blackfyre Rebellion, then a poisoned crown is a pretty strong message to anyone with designs on the throne.  That's a threat not just to Aerys but Rhaegar as well.  So taking Lyanna when an opportunity presented itself sounds like something the crown would do to prevent an alliance.

[LongRider]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

Possible. To the tumbledown tower and the lady weirwood we have to add the smuggler's cove that exist in the Whispers. Ned the smuggler of pregnant ladies?

This could describe Sanna in the Vale towers, after all, Bri was looking for Sansa and not Lyanna.   Sansa was also smuggled from King's Landing to the Vale, so the Smuggler's Cove reference could apply as well.

[Tucu]

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe we should look into evil Ned?

He planned the whole thing with Jon Arryn so he would become Lord of Winterfell instead of Brandon.

Jon Snow is a planned bastard that serves as a distraction and for creating "Honorable Ned", so nobody would look into Ned hiding Lyanna with Howland and setting up Brandon to ride for KL.

That's why Ned stayed away from Robert after the war. He had all the freedom he wanted as Lord of Winterfell, and as long as nobody went looking, he would never be found out.

We'll never know how he murdered Howland and disposed the body.

Not sure if I would go full evil Ned, but surely the "quiet wolf" kept everyone quiet about Jon's parentage: either really loyal or really dead. He probably could beat Roose Bolton at his "quiet people" game:

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"A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get. I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes. She told me that when her dead husband's brother saw those eyes, he beat her bloody and drove her from the mill. That annoyed me, so I gave her the mill and had the brother's tongue cut out, to make certain he did not go running to Winterfell with tales that might disturb Lord Rickard. Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule."

 

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

OMG! Or children and their milk mothers.

The geography is interesting considering the area where Lyanna disappeared and Targaryen loyalties.:

Crackclaw Point - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

So was Lyanna taken by Rhaegar when he fell upon her and then hidden in a motherhouse in a region loyal to Targs to stop her from marrying Robert?  Someone always talks!

I would bet that Brienne's travels through Maidenpool, the Whispers, the Quiet Isle (with Rhaegar's "rubies") and Inn at the crossroads will eventually be linked to Lyanna's hiding places during the early phase of the rebellion (although not in the same order).

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

This could describe Sanna in the Vale towers, after all, Bri was looking for Sansa and not Lyanna.   Sansa was also smuggled from King's Landing to the Vale, so the Smuggler's Cove reference could apply as well.

The smuggling indeed mirrors Sansa; however as Lynn mentioned the white maid with red matches Lyanna in Theon's dream. The tumbledown tower reference can be traced to Bran's prince and the lady chapter in which they are hiding in the cellar of a tumbledown tower and discuss if they should hide for the rest of the war; this is also the chapter in which Meera cooks in what might be the KoTLT's greathelm (Bran I ASOS).

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I would bet that Brienne's travels through Maidenpool, the Whispers, the Quiet Isle (with Rhaegar's "rubies") and Inn at the crossroads will eventually be linked to Lyanna's hiding places during the early phase of the rebellion (although not in the same order).

I am partial to the Quiet Isle as a hiding place considering that the brothers take a vow of silence.  

I'm also starting to think that Lyanna went to the Eyrie with Ned and possibly Brandon after the tourney.  She wasn't travelling with her father or at Riverrun and why the heck would they leave her at Harrenhall?  I think she was probably travelling to Riverrun from the Vale for the wedding and this presented the only opportunity take her.  

The Eyrie is probably the place where Lyanna heard the story of Robert getting a child on a girl from the Vale.  It's hard to know what 10 leagues looks like on the maps we have.  Possibly she was taken at or near the Crossroads Inn for witnesses to report what happened.  We are not told if anyone was killed.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The smuggling indeed mirrors Sansa; however as Lynn mentioned the white maid with red matches Lyanna in Theon's dream. The tumbledown tower reference can be traced to Bran's prince and the lady chapter in which they are hiding in the cellar of a tumbledown tower and discuss if they should hide for the rest of the war; this is also the chapter in which Meera cooks in what might be the KoTLT's greathelm (Bran I ASOS).

Who do you think is doing the smuggling?  How does Ned enter the picture?

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Who do you think is doing the smuggling?  How does Ned enter the picture?

I like to think that it was Ned. There are some parallels with Davos. Both are Hands of the King washed up in Sisterton ("the most notorious smuggler's den") seeking passage to White Harbor. Davos is a smuggler; Ned smuggled himself and probably the "fisherman's daughter".

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I like to think that it was Ned. There are some parallels with Davos. Both are Hands of the King washed up in Sisterton ("the most notorious smuggler's den") seeking passage to White Harbor. Davos is a smuggler; Ned smuggled himself and probably the "fisherman's daughter".

How does the kidnapping figure in?  Did Rhaegar have her to start and hide her somewhere?  Did Ned move her around or was he told where she was when she was dying?

[Tucu]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

How does the kidnapping figure in?  Did Rhaegar have her to start and hide her somewhere?  Did Ned move her around or was he told where she was when she was dying?

Rhaegar's participation is unclear. We have a smuggler's cave near Staunton's land (an enemy of Rhaegar) and we have Rhaegar being accused both of trying to buy the Starks and kidnapping one of them.

We have a prince and a lady hiding in a tumbledown tower but also a Stark and a Reed hiding in the tower. We know that Howland was present at Harrenhal's tourney and when Lyanna died. Was Howland also hiding with Lyanna at the tower?

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We know that Howland was present at Harrenhal's tourney and when Lyanna died. Was Howland also hiding with Lyanna at the tower?

In which case he may have led Lord Eddard and his men to the fatal rencounter

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The smuggling indeed mirrors Sansa;

I don't see how it mirrors Sansa as knew her escape from KL was coming and she prepared for it. Of course LF lied to her about where 'home' was.  Lyanna was either abducted or went willingly, we don't know yet.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I am partial to the Quiet Isle as a hiding place considering that the brothers take a vow of silence. 

The QI would be a good place for a woman to have a baby if she needed or wanted to hide; the behive cabins for women are separated from the men's dorms and we're told that the EB is a very skilled healer and that included birthing babies.   As for the silence, the EB couldn't wait to blab all he knew about the Hound, and what he had heard about Arya and wondered about Sansa to Bri.  All except about the Gravedigger that is.    

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The QI would be a good place for a woman to have a baby if she needed or wanted to hide; the behive cabins for women are separated from the men's dorms and we're told that the EB is a very skilled healer and that included birthing babies.   As for the silence, the EB couldn't wait to blab all he knew about the Hound, and what he had heard about Arya and wondered about Sansa to Bri.  All except about the Gravedigger that is. 

I think it's easier to hide a pregnant woman in a cloister disguised as a Septa than to hide Lyanna at Starfall.  But a serving woman or nursemaid with a newborn would likely go unremarked.  I do favor the QI as Jon's birthplace but before elder brother washed up.

I don't dispute that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna.  That's part of Stark family history but it's also possible she escaped perhaps with Howland Reed's help.  He would certainly know how to evade hunters and hide Lyanna.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Rhaegar's participation is unclear. We have a smuggler's cave near Staunton's land (an enemy of Rhaegar) and we have Rhaegar being accused both of trying to buy the Starks and kidnapping one of them.

We have a prince and a lady hiding in a tumbledown tower but also a Stark and a Reed hiding in the tower. We know that Howland was present at Harrenhal's tourney and when Lyanna died. Was Howland also hiding with Lyanna at the tower?

Not to mention a Stark falling in love with a Reed.