Salman Rushdie Attacked On Stage

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It is a mistake to imply the Fatwa issued by the Supreme Ayatollah of Iran speaks for everyone in “the Islamic Religion”, every Shia Muslim, or  everyone in Iran.  It is a piece of extremism from the leader of that nation and that sect of Islam… nothing more, nothing less.  It doesn’t indict all Muslims any more than it indicts all theists.

Correct, but we cannot also downplay religious extremism. It's a real problem now with Christian Nationalist here in the US.

[IFR]

17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It is a mistake to imply the Fatwa issued by the Supreme Ayatollah of Iran speaks for everyone in “the Islamic Religion”, every Shia Muslim, or  everyone in Iran.  It is a piece of extremism from the leader of that nation and that sect of Islam… nothing more, nothing less.  It doesn’t indict all Muslims any more than it indicts all theists.

I do not think that all Muslims approve of extremism. I do think there are far too many non-radical Muslims who are tolerant of their radical peers.

And there are other aspects of the religion that are objectionable too, namely the misogyny. Christianity of course has many misogynistic aspects that have culturally expressed themselves, and they are routinely criticized. Whereas there seems to be more of a discomfort in criticizing the numerous ways in which Islam (even in its non-radical form - though the terminology of "radical" is somewhat ambiguous in this discussion) has culturally expressed misogyny.

Societies have changed as our understanding of the world change. Religions unfortunately often demand within their own text that their practices remain static. This causes a lot of friction. From my perspective, Islam has been one of the slowest religions to change with the time. Which is a problem.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Correct, but we cannot also downplay religious extremism. It's a real problem now with Christian Nationalist here in the US.

I’m not.  But implying “Muslims” as a whole support the Fatwa because they are Muslim is like implying all Christians support the Westboro Baptist Church because they are Christians.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, IFR said:

And there are other aspects of the religion that are objectionable too, namely the misogyny. Christianity of course has many misogynistic aspects that have culturally expressed themselves, and they are routinely criticized. Whereas there seems to be more of a discomfort in criticizing the numerous ways in which Islam (even in its non-radical form - though the terminology of "radical" is somewhat ambiguous in this discussion) has culturally expressed misogyny.

What were Marx’s views on Race?  Less than modern, right?  Many Marxists can be rather… dogmatic… about Marx and his writtings.  As such does that imply all dogmatic Marxists are racists?

[IFR]

16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What were Marx’s views on Race?  Less than modern, right?  Many Marxists can be rather… dogmatic… about Marx and his writtings.  As such does that imply all dogmatic Marxists are racists?

It's true that any creed of thought can have socially disruptive expressions and adherents.

And they should be criticized when this occurs. The USSR was a seriously horrible political body, for instance. It was endemically problematic, and it deserves much criticism.

For me, while Marxism has indeed been a seed to many destructive and dysfunctional cultures, it does have value, particularly as a counterpoint to capitalism. I cannot see any equivalent value in Islam that counters the many notoriously oppressive and violent aspects it expresses in our world today. Lots of great scientific and mathematical discoveries were made by Muslims, but I do not attribute this to any specialness of Islam itself; I hold that these discoveries would have come about in roughly the same timeline independent of Islam's existence.

Of course "value" is a personal judgement call, and we almost assuredly would disagree on it qualitatively.

At any rate, we can get lost in the woods on the debate how extensively problematic Islam is, and we'll probably never agree. But I do think, reading some of the responses, that there is a general acknowledgment that we may need to be more critical of extremist Islam, of which I think we both agree.

[TheLastWolf]

Somewhere someone mentioned that he was an asshole. Exactly why I love him, like Carlin without steroids.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Somewhere someone mentioned that he was an asshole. Exactly why I love him, like Carlin without steroids.

By most accounts, Carlin being an asshole was isolated to his act (and he certainly wasn't in the interviews I've seen of him).  I suppose Rushdie may be employing an act as a panelist on a political talk show over 20-odd years too, but that'd be some Kaufman-level commitment.

[TheLastWolf]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

By most accounts, Carlin being an asshole was isolated to his act (and he certainly wasn't in the interviews I've seen of him).  I suppose Rushdie may be employing an act as a panelist on a political talk show over 20-odd years too, but that'd be some Kaufman-level commitment.

Well if this was the wild west bounties would be normal, but poor Rushdie is kind of alone in this era. But I got your point. Just that he reminded me of RDJ Jr from Zodiac.

[Zorral]

9 hours ago, IFR said:

. It is absurd to me that such a reactionary set of ideas has any place in modern society.

Ya, just like those being pushed upon us here in the USA by the minority -- i.e. in the name of their religious freedom the the evangelicals, opus dei, and so many other versions of 'christianity' have chosen to kill women.  And so many other Others, such as gay, trans, Black, Asian, etc.  It's time for our nation to join the 22nd century too, doncha think?

As for Marx, as a journalist he covered the US War of the Rebellion for a while from here for the European papers.  He was appalled by slavery, though surely he shared a level of racism about African Americans that so many in the Union did.  But he truly thought the CSA rulers insane and backward and cruel.  Even before the war the slaveocracy were flinging accusations against the North, the abolitionists as godless communists -- and darwinists.

 

[IFR]

49 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Ya, just like those being pushed upon us here in the USA by the minority -- i.e. in the name of their religious freedom the the evangelicals, opus dei, and so many other versions of 'christianity' have chosen to kill women.  And so many other Others, such as gay, trans, Black, Asian, etc.  It's time for our nation to join the 22nd century too, doncha think?

Sure, I oppose all non-egalitarian belief systems, and systems that are restrictive of free expression. And I criticize them as such.

[TheLastWolf]

Do they think fundamentalists give a fuck about Nobels?