[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

19 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, I think it’s pretty obvious Alicent is not happy and doesn’t want to be there. What stuck out to me was how this article claims Alicent is the hero of the show—and maybe so far she is. But I really hate how they made Alicent a victim rather than letting her be the ambitious plotter she was in the books. Even if she evolves into one, it will always be through the prism of her having been forced into this position against her will.

I think that may be true to the text, though. Alicent Hightower always being a scheming Cersei Lannister psychopath is something that many fans have taken to but the indications are that she really did start as Old King Joe's caretaker and nurse with a kind nature before Viserys went, "Hello, Nurse!" It's only when Rhaenyra made it clear that she wasn't going to step aside as heir that Alicent began scheming relentlessly.

Edited September 4, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think that may be true to the text, though. Alicent Hightower always being a scheming Cersei Lannister psychopath is something that many fans have taken to but the indications are that she really did start as Old King Joe's caretaker and nurse with a kind nature before Viserys went, "Hello, Nurse!" It's only when Rhaenyra made it clear that she wasn't going to step aside as heir that Alicent began scheming relentlessly.

Maybe, but that interpretation strips her of a lot of agency. Alicent never struck me as a psychopath. There are plenty of ambitious men in the books with different personalities (Tywin, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Mace, Renly, Theon, Varys, even Stannis). Alicent can be responsible for her own actions without being a carbon copy of Cersei.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@The Bard of Banefort

If they made Alicent an ambitious social climber it would undoubtedly validate the perception of her being somewhat of a gold digger and Alicent already faces an uphill battle in terms of online fandom. (Honestly, I feel that almost ANY noblewoman would have fought tooth-and-nail, like Alicent, to make their son king when said son was the king's first living trueborn male child. That's one reason why I tend to see more of Catelyn than Cersei in Alicent, who, like the former, accepts her place in society and works within the limits it imposes (even if she privately chaffs at them).)

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, I think it’s pretty obvious Alicent is not happy and doesn’t want to be there. What stuck out to me was how this article claims Alicent is the hero of the show—and maybe so far she is. But I really hate how they made Alicent a victim rather than letting her be the ambitious plotter she was in the books. Even if she evolves into one, it will always be through the prism of her having been forced into this position against her will.

I think there is still a chance for development here. Alicent and Viserys can and likely will talk about their relationship and marriage. There could easily be scenes like, you know, 'When you first asked me to marry you I wasn't sure, as you well know ...' or '... I was the happiest woman in the world.' or 'You will remember that I asked you if you wanted to marry me, Viserys, and you said yes.'

They framed this as a surprise in the second episode, but this doesn't have to be their last word on that particular relationship dynamic.

In context, though, I think it makes no sense to take out Otto out of that particular equation. He would have been part of the scheme in any case, and I think there is a better chance for Alicent to develop as a character if she (kind of) starts as her father's pawn only to develop into the actual leader of the Green faction - and the actual ruler in KL after Aegon's coronation, being the one who very much controls her son. It wouldn't surprise me, for instance, if Aegon ends up sacking Otto and replacing him with Criston because Alicent also has had enough of her father messing with things.

I'd imagine that Aemond is going to make solitary decisions as Prince Regent, but once he and Criston leave, Alicent will be the ruler of KL until the city falls. And later she is going to control Aegon II's government yet again.

After all, it is also quite clear they do have a development arc for Rhaenyra - in the first episode she was content as the pampered princess who didn't have to shoulder any big responsibilities. In the second episode she asserts her new role as the Heir Apparent, and there will be more development there.

7 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@The Bard of Banefort

If they made Alicent an ambitious social climber it would undoubtedly validate the perception of her being somewhat of a gold digger and Alicent already faces an uphill battle in terms of online fandom. (Honestly, I feel that almost ANY noblewoman would have fought tooth-and-nail, like Alicent, to make their son king when said son was the king's first living trueborn male child. That's one reason why I tend to see more of Catelyn than Cersei in Alicent, who, like the former, accepts her place in society and works within the limits it imposes (even if she privately chaffs at them).)

Cersei also accepts the social barriers - she never tries to be a Queen Regnant or anything of that sort. However, she is cursed as the mother of (incompetent and weak) boy kings in whose name she has to rule. Joff and Tommen aren't Jaehaerys or Robb at the age of 14.

Cersei could have been easily more like Alicent if Robert had died when Joffrey was 20.

And, no, it isn't a given that Alicent must be of the view that her son has to be king no matter what just because she is his mother. That's the silly cliché of the dutiful mother only living for the benefit of her son(s). This is why they have the Alicent-Rhaenyra friendship in the show - there is a chance that the whole thing could have worked, if they had been willing to make it work. The incest could have helped with that easily enough.

[OrionSkybourne1]

The opening theme was nostalgic, but I feel they could have gone with a Targaryen theme like Blood of the Dragon. Maybe that's just me.

Laena and Viserys. Now child marriages were common in the old ages, especially for nobles. It was all about tying houses and forming alliances, with is what game of thrones is all about. Age was a last thought. 

Viserys announcing who he would marry was easily predictable. There was no shock factor if that was intended. A blunder on his part, alienating the second wealthiest house in Westeros.

[Coherys]

Really good episode!