Are the Starks victims?

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mmhmm. Which was exactly the age Jon fell short of. Ygritte isn’t just guilty by our modern standards, even in Westerosi standarts the shaggy haired rapist  was shagging boys of non legal age. Perhaps it may be different for wildlings though, so I’ll give her the benefit of doubt. But coercing someone into having carnal relations with you with the threat of death isn’t something that’s bad in just modern times, it wouldn’t be looked favorably upon even in Westeros and wildling society.

 

Not disputing any of that, just brought up the legal age of majority. 

[Lady Ella]

Wow, there's an awful lot of victim blaming going on here. If you think that someone deserves to die for making mistakes then you're basically saying that every human being deserves to die.

Having said that, I think one of the main differences between the Lannisters and the Starks is that the Starks are better at PR. The Starks are very good at making themselves look like the victims because they always make sure they can justify their actions. The Lannisters think such things don't matter. But the Starks are still ultimately a powerful dynasty that is looking out for its own best interests. They'll often say one thing and do another. They accuse the Lannisters of being power-hungry and ambitious and say they don't want power themselves, yet they reach for power anyway, e.g. Ned accepting the Handship, Ned trying to seize the Iron Throne, Robb seizing the riverlands. But all these actions were justified of course.

However, the Starks are the ones trying to fix Westeros's broken system whereas the Lannisters are leading it into chaos, so on balance I'd still consider the current crop of Starks victims (they can't change the power structure they were born into without putting their own lives in danger and they are genuinely trying to do what they think is right).

[James West]

On 10/12/2022 at 12:32 PM, The Commentator said:

Edward, Catelyn, Robb, Lady, and Greywind are dead. They have lost all of their possessions. The Lannister had a Writ prepared to take away all of their material goods.  The question for me is if they are victims of their enemies. How do you consider the Starks?

I consider them the bad guys of the story.  Arya is already a villain and Jon is a traitor at the wall.  Yes they are victims but they also victimized others.  

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Corvo the Crow]

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[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, James West said:

I consider them the bad guys of the story.  Arya is already a villain and Jon is a traitor at the wall.  Yes they are victims but they also victimized others.  

I consider them the bad guys of the story. Viserys was already a villain and Daenerys was a traitor at Vaes Dothrak. Yes they are victims but they also victimised others.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 10/14/2022 at 1:59 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Who did Jon betray?

The Night's Watch.  The crows.  

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

The Night's Watch.  The crows.  

Where in the text does it say or imply that Jon betrayed the Watch?

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

I wouldn’t call the older Starks victims per say. I would say of all the nobles in the series they are/were the closest to being the “heroes” of the story. They were wronged and betrayed but they also had hands in their own fates. Like others have said, those that remain will rise back up and while I think they will have some form of honor and won’t act needlessly cruel, they will be ruthless. Because that’s the world they live in.

[SeanF]

The Starks provide either three or four of the main six protagonists in the tale (depending on how you classify Jon), they are the victims of psychopaths, and they are generally better than the majority of their class.  The author has called them "heroes" (which is not the same as calling them the heroes).

None of that means, however, that they are sinless.  Which is fine.  Sinless people don't exist, and if they did, they'd be boring to read about. Ned's and Catelyn's treatment of Jon leaves a lot to be desired.  Sansa bullies Arya and is susceptible to corruption.  Jon's treatment of Gilly leaves a lot to be desired.  Arya is perhaps treating killing people as the go to solution for every problem.  Bran wargs Hodor, something that the author called "an obscenity".

Sympathising with the Starks should not mean whitewashing them.  OTOH, trying to pretend that they're monsters is just ridiculous trolling.

[kissdbyfire]

They are certainly victims of a text-denying group here.