Will Danaerys be Able to Invade Westeros?

[StarkTullies]

7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

"harm no child under twelve" does not mean "kill everyone beyond 11"

I bolded the two parts for a reason.  Everyone wearing a tokar, but nobody under the age of 12.  This means all 12-year-old boys wearing a tokar.

I am well aware that childhood is different in their world than ours.  Daenerys being sold as a slave-wife at age 13 is tragic.  Yet 13 is still older than 12, and that doesn't make Daenerys ordering the deaths of 12-year-old boys okay.  I was not making a statement about right or wrong (though obviously I think it is wrong), but saying that this refutes your claim that Daenerys wants as few casualties as possible.

13 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Why show her being sick at the sight of the 163 children nailed on posts or why show her refuse to kill her child hostages?

Because George Martin doesn't write (most) characters to be one-dimensional villains.  I don't even necessarily think Dany will be a villain (it depends where the story goes).  She has good traits and bad traits, like (almost) every character in the story.

15 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And the tokar is a master's garment, not the symbol of the upper class

Your very quote bolded "a sign of wealth of power", and that means noble class.  Whether "master" is means "slave master" or just noble class, I don't know.

Still, I'm not questioning that many if not all these 12 year olds were in slave-owning families.  Regardless, Dany ordered the deaths of 12-year-olds and was not desire to "limit casualties".

18 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

that's why only the masters wear it, because they have slaves to do the work for them.

Slaves or servants.  Yep, that's part of being noble class... even in societies where slavery doesn't exist.  Dany wore her "floppy ears" too, and her "servants" (who had no choice but to serve her) did her tasks for her too.

19 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Daenerys was sold to Drogo, she did not chose to be his bride.

I am fully aware.  But her request to start a war in her and their son's name was after they were "in love", and after she named him her "sun and stars".  How their relationship began is irrelevant by that point.

22 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

So you can see that Drogo does what Drogo pleases.

Yep, and Dany convinced him to be pleased to invade Westeros to give their son the Iron Throne.  Drogo would not have done that if Dany hadn't convinced him.

23 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

You also forget that the Lhazareen village is already attacked by another Khal when Drogo arrived

I didn't forget that.  The Dothraki culture is based on attacking peaceful villages.  Drogo is not more to blame than the other khals.  But Drogo's attack is specifically because of Dany's request.

24 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

You also forget that a few lines after the quote you posted (her wanting to cry that slaves were being brought to Slaver's Bay) she stops the raping of the women around her

Nope, I did not forget that either.  Good for Daenerys, but too little, way too late.  I commented on her "sadness" of the massacre she helped instigate, and the rapes she helped instigate.  She regretted it later, but she still deserves some blame.

25 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

You also forget that khaleesi is an empty title after all, because the little power she has derives from Drogo

I most certainly did not forget that.  I didn't say "Daenerys led the attack on the village", I said that Dany convinced Drogo to attack the village.

27 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Mirri, as well as the rest, got it wrong who the Stallion was : it was never Rhaego, but Daenerys and as I said earlier, I believe the prophecy is about uniting people for the Long Night.

I think most people are in agreement, myself included, that if there is a Stallion Who Mounts the World, it will be Dany, although I am skeptical about the accuracy of any of these prophecies.  I don't think the ghost grass has anything to do with the Long Night.  The Dothraki like to invade and conquer, they want to invade and conquer the world... not "unite" people.  I suspect Dany is based on Genghis Khan.

30 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

So Daenerys had no say is where, when, how and whom Drogo and his khalasar will attack.

The quote you gave was from a bloodrider who hated Dany.  Dany had no power over Drogo unless he respected her wishes... which he did.

31 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

You also forget that before entering the pyre she frees all the slaves that remained there after Drogo's khalasar shattered

I'm not forgetting anything.  Great that she freed the few people still left behind, but nothing will undo the fact that they were originally enslaved because of her, and she considered it acceptable as "the price of the Iron Throne".

33 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Daenerys sees the dothrakis as her khalasar and Jon is also in a position of power as LC so he is not exactly budy budy with them, he is also an authority. I believe it's more dues to the lack of characterison from Martin but it's also from the bias that people have and that expect Daenerys and "her mob" to destroy" Westeros (as if Westeros is this great utopia that foreigners come to destrroy with their barbaric ways and who will never comprehend the complexity of westerosi people)

The lack of characterization of the Dothraki has nothing to do with the readers' bias.  It is because they aren't characterized.  Whether it is because George Martin doesn't write of them as complex, or because Dany's POV doesn't see them as complex, is the question.

36 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Daenerys has always shown to avoid unnecesary bloodshed and she always prefers peaceful solutions to violent ones. That's why she lets Yunkai untouched and she strickes a peace with the masters, the opressors of her children.

I gave examples of how she doesn't always find peaceful solutions.  I give her credit for trying to obtain peace in ADWD, but by the end of the book she grew sick of it.  Dany's conversations with the blades of grass saying "dragons plant no trees" and "fire and blood" do not bode well for her future mindset.

39 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

As for her bringing dothrakis to fight for the Throne, not against The Others, well, she has Marwin and Morroqo on her way to tell her about The Long Night and Sam also know about this and the AA prophecy

These are events that haven't happened yet, and this are all predictions.  Will Dany's story involve the Others in one way or another?  Of course, but nothing she has done at this point has been about them.  I don't trust Marwyn in the least to have altruistic motives in anything he does.  Quaithe already warned against Moqorro (dark flame), so if you trust Quaithe, you shouldn't trust Moqorro.

44 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Do you believe that the only thing she will bring in the fight with The Others will be her dragons? What will she do with the soldiers that come with her?

I don't know how the story will go (obviously).  But I've already said what I expect: Dothraki will be uncontrollable and only make things worse.  The Dothraki will be another crisis added to a continent already in crisis.

49 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Well, it's your choice to see Daenerys' followers as mindless thugs.

I never said that, nor do I think that.  I don't think the Dothraki are mindless thugs, but I think their "culture" is problematic.  I like Dany's bloodriders and her handmaidens (as poorly developed as they are), and I don't think any nation or culture contains only bad people (which is why I condemn Dany for indiscriminately slaughtering all 12-year-old noble class boys).  Same with that I don't like "Ironborn culture", but I like "the Reader" and Tris Botley (among other Ironborn).

52 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I believe they will simply listen to her (as she is theirleader) and giving the fact that she does not want to make unecessary damage, they will be far less destructive as the majority of the fandom expects.

And this is where I disagree.  Dothraki culture is a problem, and their culture is that of murder, rape, and enslavement.  Daenerys can't change that overnight, and 100,000+ people aren't going to change overnight because their leader tells them to.  Some other authors may write such simplistic stories (the king is good, so therefore so are his people!), but George Martin doesn't write like that.

[Kierria]

A Dance with Dragons ended with Dany and Drogon on the Dothraki Sea.  They are not looking to make a move for Westeros.  She wants to go back to Meereen and help the slaves be free.  She has enough Unsullied, mercenaries, and cadets in training to inflict a hell of a lot of pain to King's Landing and the Lannisters but that is not the objective.  The objective is to rule all of Westeros.  She will need the Dothraki to accomplish that without needing to resort to burning down all the castles. 

Play what if that the Dothraki are not won over and Dany has to use what people she has.  It will then require the use of her dragons.  I don't think she will pick that path.  Dany is maturing very nicely into the leader that Westeros need.  She will wait until she has enough people to force the houses of Westeros to the bargaining table without burning more than one or two castles.  She can burn Storm's End and Casterly Rock to make me happy.  That should be enough to force the stubborn houses to the bargaining table. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Kierria said:

Dany is maturing very nicely into the leader that Westeros need. 

Debatable.

5 minutes ago, Kierria said:

She can burn Storm's End

She can go nowhere near Westeros to make me happy.

[Oana_Mika]

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

but saying that this refutes your claim that Daenerys wants as few casualties as possible

 

In Astapor she was at disadvantage that's why there are more casualties there.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Your very quote bolded "a sign of wealth of power", and that means noble class.  Whether "master" is means "slave master" or just noble class, I don't know.

Still, I'm not questioning that many if not all these 12 year olds were in slave-owning families.  Regardless, Dany ordered the deaths of 12-year-olds and was not desire to "limit casualties".

 

The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I

She made a rough judgement of age because she was at disadvantage in Astapor.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Slaves or servants.  Yep, that's part of being noble class... even in societies where slavery doesn't exist.  Dany wore her "floppy ears" too, and her "servants" (who had no choice but to serve her) did her tasks for her too.

 

As I showed to you, the tokar is indeed a master's garment and in Slaver's Bay the whole noble class has slaves, not servants. Daenerys still wears "her floppy ears" at Green Grace's advice to appease Meereense (she would have rather banned it) and she does not have slaves because she abolished slavery in Meereen.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I am fully aware.  But her request to start a war in her and their son's name was after they were "in love", and after she named him her "sun and stars".  How their relationship began is irrelevant by that point.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Yep, and Dany convinced him to be pleased to invade Westeros to give their son the Iron Throne.  Drogo would not have done that if Dany hadn't convinced him.

 

Drogo decided to invade Westeros because her khaleesi (his property) and his son were threaten, not because she asked him to. As you cand see in the quotes, before the poisoned attempt, he refuses her.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

But Drogo's attack is specifically because of Dany's request.

 

No, he attacks because he need to fund his invasion to answer Robert's  poison attempt at his khaleesi and son

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Good for Daenerys, but too little, way too late.  I commented on her "sadness" of the massacre she helped instigate, and the rapes she helped instigate.  She regretted it later, but she still deserves some blame.

 

No, she deserve no blame in how Drogo's khalasar behaves, since she had no say in their ways. That specific Lhazareen village was already brutalised and if Drogo would not have married her he would have still done what a khal does. In fact, if Daenerys hadn't been there, those women would have continued to be raped so at least she mitigated things a little bit.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I most certainly did not forget that.  I didn't say "Daenerys led the attack on the village", I said that Dany convinced Drogo to attack the village.

 

Dany did not convince Drogo of anything. She did not ask him to attack the Lhazareen village. Drogo attacks the village because he wants to gain money to found his conquest of Westeros because Robert Baratheon wanted to murder his property and son so he obviously took that as a personal offense.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I think most people are in agreement, myself included, that if there is a Stallion Who Mounts the World, it will be Dany, although I am skeptical about the accuracy of any of these prophecies.  I don't think the ghost grass has anything to do with the Long Night.  The Dothraki like to invade and conquer, they want to invade and conquer the world... not "unite" people

 

So the ghost grass that will murder everything in it's way and cover the world does not remind you of The Others?

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I suspect Dany is based on Genghis Khan.

 

Well, that is your choice to see her as a unscrupulous conqueror. Until now Geroge has showed us her minimizing the casualties and always refuse to be more ruthless when she was advised to.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

The quote you gave was from a bloodrider who hated Dany.  Dany had no power over Drogo unless he respected her wishes... which he did.

 

I repeat : the only time she asks him to conquer Westeros he reufes to do so. He only accepts this after he hears about the poisoned wine. As I showed you, when Daenerys pleads Drogo to let her keep those women raped safe, she wonders if she daeres too much. (plase, read the quotes)

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I'm not forgetting anything.  Great that she freed the few people still left behind, but nothing will undo the fact that they were originally enslaved because of her, and she considered it acceptable as "the price of the Iron Throne"

 

Those people that remained with here were the ones left behind after Drogo's khalasar shattered. They were part of his original khalasar. Do you think Drogo started to have a khalasar and to ensalve only because of her? and as I showed you, she tried to harden her heart but we see that she is not ok with that price, since she starts to claim the raped victimes as her own, to keep them safe and to defy Drogo's men.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Whether it is because George Martin doesn't write of them as complex, or because Dany's POV doesn't see them as complex, is the question.

 

Why would Daeneys, the character, be to blame of the lack of interiority of Irri, Jiqui and the rest and not the author, wom does not bother to write that much about them? In fact, he wrote Daenerys thoughtful with them, buying them sweets and souvenirs from the market (for e.g.) :

 

Her handmaids trailed along as Dany resumed her stroll through the market. "Oh, look," she exclaimed to Doreah, "those are the kind of sausages I meant." She pointed to a stall where a wizened little woman was grilling meat and onions on a hot firestone. "They make them with lots of garlic and hot peppers." Delighted with her discovery, Dany insisted the others join her for a sausage. Her handmaids wolfed theirs down giggling and grinning, though the men of her khas sniffed at the grilled meat suspiciously. "They taste different than I remember," Dany said after her first few bites.

"In Pentos, I make them with pork," the old woman said, "but all my pigs died on the Dothraki sea. These are made of horsemeat, Khaleesi, but I spice them the same." - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

 

When Doreah looked longingly at a fertility charm at a magician's booth, Dany took that too and gave it to the handmaid, thinking that now she should find something for Irri and Jhiqui as well.  - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

 

And she also defends them from Viserys' bigoted views :

 

Viserys was less impressed. “The trash of dead cities,” he sneered. He was careful to speak in the Common Tongue, which few Dothraki could understand, yet even so Dany found herself glancing back at the men of her khas, to make certain he had not been overheard. He went on blithely. “All these savages know how to do is steal the things better men have built … and kill.” He laughed. “They do know how to kill. Otherwise I’d have no use for them at all.”

“They are my people now,” Dany said. “You should not call them savages, brother.” - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV

And these are just a few of the examples that come of the top of my head.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I gave examples of how she doesn't always find peaceful solutions.  I give her credit for trying to obtain peace in ADWD, but by the end of the book she grew sick of it.  Dany's conversations with the blades of grass saying "dragons plant no trees" and "fire and blood" do not bode well for her future mindset

 

You won't always be able to avoid casualties, or to have many of them and the end of ADWD is her conecting back with her dragons, wanting to go back home and realising that the slaver will never accept her children (the freedmen), that they will always make it hard for them to live. It's her realising that peace with slavers is unjust and right after her saying "fire and blood" Khal Jhaqo finds her so good for her she is prepared for his meeting. Also, the yunkai'i have been showed to be very excited to sack Astapor. The only person who stopped that was Yezzan and he died because he was old and obese.No to mention the symbolism of slavery in the wedding between her and Hizdhar : Four hours later, they emerged again as man and wife, bound together wrist and ankle with chains of yellow gold. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

And, her children don't want her to make the peace with the slavers : Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers. Mhysa, they called her. Someone told him that meant Mother. Soon the silver queen would come forth from her city, smash the Yunkai'i, and break their chains, they whispered to one another.  - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion X

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I don't know how the story will go (obviously).  But I've already said what I expect: Dothraki will be uncontrollable and only make things worse.  The Dothraki will be another crisis added to a continent already in crisis.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't think that the dothrakis won't listen to their prophecised Stallion, the khal of all khals. What's the point of being a leader if no one listens to you?

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

(which is why I condemn Dany for indiscriminately slaughtering all 12-year-old noble class boys).

 

Daenerys did not "slaughter indiscriminately". She ordered the deaths of the masters and their soldiers, who would have killed her, her khalasar and any unsullied that opposed them and avoided the deaths of children.

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Daenerys can't change that overnight, and 100,000+ people aren't going to change overnight because their leader tells them to. 

 

The dothrakis will simply behave as their khal tells them to behave. Her khalasar did not go to rape, plunder and murder mindlessly.

 

[Oana_Mika]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

She can go nowhere near Westeros to make me happy.

I know that the main problem her detractors like you have with her is the fact that she comes to Westeros to "take the spoils" from your faves. Well, can't do anything about that except praying she will shot herself in the foot and fail miserably (which I doubt it will happen).

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

I know that the main problem her detractors like you have with her is the fact that she comes to Westeros to "take the spoils" from your faves.

I'm not a 'detractor', I am ambivalent towards Daenerys, as I have already started. Just because I don't believe her character is flawless does not make me a detractor.

My 'fave' is already dead and has been for 3 books.

[Oana_Mika]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not a 'detractor', I am ambivalent towards Daenerys, as I have already started. Just because I don't believe her character is flawless does not make me a detractor.

 

I don't believe she is flawless either. I already admitted that the winseller's daughters torture was not good on her part but I refuse to just let this without context and painting them as innocents where they are not presented as such in the text, nor George provides us with information to conclued that they did not know anything.

 

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

My 'fave' is already dead and has been for 3 books.

 

LOL, sorry for that.

 

ETA : I firstly thought you were talking about Jon but I see it's Renly.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

ETA : I firstly thought you were talking about Jon.

I like Snowhead as well, but Renly is my favourite.

But liking Jon does not mean I hate Daenerys. I am not saying you think that but some people seem to think it's either one or the other.

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I like Snowhead as well, but Renly is my favourite.

But liking Jon does not mean I hate Daenerys. I am not saying you think that but some people seem to think it's either one or the other.

Oh, I'm aware that there are Jon/Stark fans that don't dislike her but I feel like many of them resent her.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

Oh, I'm aware that there are Jon/Stark fans that don't dislike her but I feel like many of them resent her.

It's a shame because Jon and Daenerys actually have quite a lot of similarities.

I am in a funny position because House Baratheon is my favourite but I cannot stand Stannis...

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's a shame because Jon and Daenerys actually have quite a lot of similarities.

 Agreed, specially in ADWD

 

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am in a funny position because House Baratheon is my favourite but I cannot stand Stannis...

 

LOL

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

Agreed, specially in ADWD

Presuming no one interferes (unlikely) to turn them against each other before they've even met, I can see them working quite well together.

2 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

LOL

It is a sad state of affairs. But I cannot accept Stannis as king. He's just too awful.

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Presuming no one interferes (unlikely) to turn them against each other before they've even met, I can see them working quite well together.

 

From my first read I always assumed they will be allies (the Starks and Daenerys)

 

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is a sad state of affairs. But I cannot accept Stannis as king. He's just too awful.

 

He is very rigid and has no warmth at all, I hear you.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

From my first read I always assumed they will be allies (the Starks and Daenerys)

Both Jon and Daenerys are striving to help others. And are frustrated by other people's bigotry and unwillingness to change even for the better.

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

He is very rigid and has no warmth at all, I hear you.

Apart from that he also murdered his younger, hotter, and better in every way brother 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Both Jon and Daenerys are striving to help others. And are frustrated by other people's bigotry and unwillingness to change even for the better.

Apart from that he also murdered his younger, hotter, and better in every way brother 

I have my criticisms toward Stannis, but I have no more respect or sympathy toward Renly than I have toward him. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I have my criticisms toward Stannis, but I have no more respect or sympathy toward Renly than I have toward him. 

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I like Renly more.

[Kierria]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Debatable.

She can go nowhere near Westeros to make me happy.

I like Daenerys.  I believe she is the heroine of asoiaf.  It is obvious to me that you don't.  I guess this is why you and I are having this debate. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Kierria said:

It is obvious to me that you don't.

Where did I say that I don't think Daenerys is a heroine? I never even mentioned the subject.

[StarkTullies]

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

In Astapor she was at disadvantage that's why there are more casualties there.

I'm not sure how that makes sense.  In Westeros she will have bigger dragons and bigger armies, so the casualties will be fewer?  Westeros isn't going to welcome her with open arms, and as I said before, I don't think the Dothraki will be well-behaved.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

She made a rough judgement of age because she was at disadvantage in Astapor.

I also don't see how being at a disadvantage explains why she ordered the deaths of 12-year-olds in Astapor but won't do that going forward.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Drogo decided to invade Westeros because her khaleesi (his property) and his son were threaten, not because she asked him to. As you cand see in the quotes, before the poisoned attempt, he refuses her.

I remember the story quite well.  I know he rejected her previous attempts to convince him to invade, and it was the attempt on her life (and her child's life) that changed his mind.  Would the assassination attempt have spontaneously convinced Drogo to invade Westeros if Dany hadn't been pressuring him all along?  That seems very unlikely to me.  Surely there have been times in your life when you tried to convince someone to do something and they said no, and then something else happened to change their mind.

As for diminishing Dany's culpability in Drogo's actions because she is his "property", that argument doesn't work.  The fans who love Drogo (I'm not one of them) love him because he wasn't like the other khals.  He was her "sun and stars", and she was the "moon of his life".  You can't credit Dany for convincing Drogo to stop some of the rapes while simultaneously claiming she has no influence over him.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

No, she deserve no blame in how Drogo's khalasar behaves, since she had no say in their ways. That specific Lhazareen village was already brutalised and if Drogo would not have married her he would have still done what a khal does. In fact, if Daenerys hadn't been there, those women would have continued to be raped so at least she mitigated things a little bit.

I half-agree.  Daenerys is not responsible for how the Dothraki behave.  She did not want anyone to be raped.  But... she did want the capture of slaves to sell so they could buy ships to invade Westeros.  It made her sad, it made her want to cry, but "this is the price of the Iron Throne".  I was pro-Daenerys until that paragraph.  I can't support a character who thinks that all these atrocities are justified to reclaim an inheritance her family lost after her tyrant father was justifiably overthrown.  At that point in the story, Dany did not care about the Others or care about ending slavery; she only wanted to claim her "birthright".

I definitely applaud Dany for stopping the rapes, and yes, she mitigated things in that regard.

The book doesn't show Dany's reaction when her sun and stars promised to destroy castles, murder men, rape women, and enslave children.  Maybe she was appalled, but why wouldn't the book express that if she was?  She certainly did not tell him to spare the enslavement of the Lhazareen ("price of the Iron Throne", and all that).  Instead, she continued to cherish Drogo as the love of her life despite all the atrocities he promised.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Robert Baratheon wanted to murder his property and son

You keep repeating the "property" argument, but that is not how Drogo and Dany's relationship was depicted.  At the very beginning, yes, but not at this point in the story.  Dany absolutely had influence over Drogo.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

So the ghost grass that will murder everything in it's way and cover the world does not remind you of The Others?

I admit that is a good correlation that I didn't previously consider.  Perhaps you are right that it is a prediction of the Long Night.  I still don't think that will convince the Dothraki to peacefully unite with all peoples to fight against a ghost grass metaphor.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Well, that is your choice to see her as a unscrupulous conqueror. Until now Geroge has showed us her minimizing the casualties and always refuse to be more ruthless when she was advised to.

Geroge Martin himself says the Dothraki are based on the Mongols.  Genghis Khan united the Mongol tribes.  And if Dany is the "Stallion" to unite the Dothraki, it is not an unreasonable extrapolation to make.

Yes, Dany is less brutal than Daario advises her to be.  ADWD is about Dany trying her best to be a peaceful ruler, and seemingly giving up by the end.  Barristan was her angel on her shoulder, and Daario was her devil.  She resisted her lust toward Daario at first... and then she didn't, and then she started mocking her "angel advisor" as Ser Grandfather.  Besides the fact that her attraction to Daario proves that she is drawn to mass-murderers, it is very metaphorical of her starting to embrace her more violent side.  The cliff-hanging end of her written story is about Dany embracing "fire and blood".  That isn't her decision to become less ruthless.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Why would Daeneys, the character, be to blame of the lack of interiority of Irri, Jiqui and the rest and not the author, wom does not bother to write that much about them? In fact, he wrote Daenerys thoughtful with them, buying them sweets and souvenirs from the market

I explained this in my last two posts.  Maybe George isn't invested in developing Dothraki culture.  But he writes from POV characters, so maybe they are undeveloped because Dany doesn't see them in a complex way.  Yes, I know she told Viserys to not call them savages, but her own thoughts think poorly of them.

The quotes about Dany buying her handmaidens gifts doesn't really demonstrate she cares about the Dothraki people as a whole.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Sorry, but I don't think that the dothrakis won't listen to their prophecised Stallion, the khal of all khals. What's the point of being a leader if no one listens to you?

That is not how humanity works, and that is not how George Martin writes.  They aren't going to instantly change their forever culture because one leader tells him to, whether that leader is Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, Stannis Baratheon, or anybody else.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Daenerys did not "slaughter indiscriminately". She ordered the deaths of the masters and their soldiers, who would have killed her, her khalasar and any unsullied that opposed them and avoided the deaths of children.

Fair enough.  She discriminately selected all 12-year-old-boys from a social class she is part of to be slaughtered.

4 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

The dothrakis will simply behave as their khal tells them to behave. Her khalasar did not go to rape, plunder and murder mindlessly.

Same response.  No single person in history ever had the power to mind-control a population that large, that quickly.  I never called the Dothraki "mindless", but the belief that they are so easily controlled implies that they must be.

[Oana_Mika]

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

As for diminishing Dany's culpability in Drogo's actions because she is his "property", that argument doesn't work.  The fans who love Drogo (I'm not one of them) love him because he wasn't like the other khals.  He was her "sun and stars", and she was the "moon of his life".  You can't credit Dany for convincing Drogo to stop some of the rapes while simultaneously claiming she has no influence over him.

 

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I half-agree.  Daenerys is not responsible for how the Dothraki behave.  She did not want anyone to be raped.  But... she did want the capture of slaves to sell so they could buy ships to invade Westeros.  It made her sad, it made her want to cry, but "this is the price of the Iron Throne".  I was pro-Daenerys until that paragraph.  I can't support a character who thinks that all these atrocities are justified to reclaim an inheritance her family lost after her tyrant father was justifiably overthrown.  At that point in the story, Dany did not care about the Others or care about ending slavery; she only wanted to claim her "birthright".

I definitely applaud Dany for stopping the rapes, and yes, she mitigated things in that regard.

 

I don't diminish anything because Daenerys was indeed Drogo's property. She was sold to him and it's noted by others and as well by her:

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty."

"I shall treasure them always." Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo. - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

 

“My brother and I were guests in Illyrio’s manse for half a year. If he meant to sell us, he could have done it then.” 

“He did sell you,” Ser Jorah said. “To Khal Drogo.” Dany flushed. He had the truth of it, but she did not like the sharpness with which he put it. (Daenerys III, ACOK)

The fat man grew pensive. "Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself. Such a fearful, furtive thing, however, I knew I should get no joy from coupling with her. Instead I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed. If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords."

"That did not stop you selling her to Khal Drogo …" - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

 

"Better to come a beggar than a slaver," Arstan said.

"There speaks one who has been neither." Dany's nostrils flared. "Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I . . . my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?" - A Storm of Swords - Daenerys II

 

"You hurt me. You frightened me."

Only when you woke the dragon. I loved you.

"You sold me. You betrayed me." - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

 

 

The fact that she fell in love with Drogo does not change that, as also it does not change the way his khalasar behaved : they did not started enslaving because of her and him indulging her in claiming the lhazareen women for herself, to keep them safe, does not mean he would listen to everything she wants him to do. Honestly, what do you thik it would have happened if Daeenerys wasn't there?

It’s just very odd that you want to blame a child bride for the actions of the man she was sold to, especially when you claim he was doing those things “for her” when he was doing them for his unborn son more than anything ("And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing." - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI). It’s even odder that you blame her for going along with it as if she doesn’t mitigate the damage the Khalasar does as best as within her power. It’s even odder that you act like if she only told them she wasn’t interested in the Iron Throne or Westeros they would magically change their entire way of life and stop pillaging forever and ever. No matter how much you say you don't blame her, you do seem to do so, because you think she was ok with them selling slaves to get home. As you said previously "I was diminishing Daenerys' guilt in Drogo's acction by calling her his property".

Oh and when he lets her keep the raped women as her own, this is what he says :

When she was done, Drogo was frowning. "This is the way of war. These women are our slaves now, to do with as we please."

"It pleases me to hold them safe," Dany said, wondering if she had dared too much. "If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives. Give them places in the khalasar and let them bear you sons."

Qotho was ever the cruelest of the bloodriders. It was he who laughed. "Does the horse breed with the sheep?"

Something in his tone reminded her of Viserys. Dany turned on him angrily. "The dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike."

Khal Drogo smiled. "See how fierce she grows!" he said. "It is my son inside her, the stallion who mounts the world, filling her with his fire. Ride slowly, Qotho … if the mother does not burn you where you sit, the son will trample you into the mud. And you, Mago, hold your tongue and find another lamb to mount. These belong to my khaleesi." He started to reach out a hand to Daenerys, but as he lifted his arm Drogo grimaced in sudden pain and turned his head. - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VII

He only indulged her because of the fiercenees that his son was filling her with, her fierceness wasn't even hers.

 

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

The book doesn't show Dany's reaction when her sun and stars promised to destroy castles, murder men, rape women, and enslave children.  Maybe she was appalled, but why wouldn't the book express that if she was?  She certainly did not tell him to spare the enslavement of the Lhazareen ("price of the Iron Throne", and all that).  Instead, she continued to cherish Drogo as the love of her life despite all the atrocities he promised.

 

We know she is not ok with atrocities being made to restore her family name because she does not feel ok with it and she tries what she can to make things a bit better. We know she is not ok with slavery because as soon as she is khaleesi in her own right she frees the remaining khalasar and she starts a revolution to free slaves as well as delaing her sailing to Westeros to ensure those she freed stay free.

 

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Yes, Dany is less brutal than Daario advises her to be.  ADWD is about Dany trying her best to be a peaceful ruler, and seemingly giving up by the end.  Barristan was her angel on her shoulder, and Daario was her devil.  She resisted her lust toward Daario at first... and then she didn't, and then she started mocking her "angel advisor" as Ser Grandfather.  Besides the fact that her attraction to Daario proves that she is drawn to mass-murderers, it is very metaphorical of her starting to embrace her more violent side.  The cliff-hanging end of her written story is about Dany embracing "fire and blood".  That isn't her decision to become less ruthless.

 

LMAO, "drawn to mass murder"???

A woman chosing her lover for the first time in her life (and renouncing at him for a shitty peace and a fragile one) is not a sign of her being a lunatic. Her embracing her heritage is her not bowing anymore to the master's wishes and their institutionalized violence. You seem to be appalled at her retaliating against them but what about the violence they use? Also, even if she wouldn't have rejected Yunaki's peace, war was coming on her way anyway, since Volantis and it's coalition were sailing to Meereen to wage war and kill her.

Her nickname for Baristan is not a mockery. I think it's a warmth and playful one and she calls him that because he literally behaves like a grandfather. Also, his views that young women don't know what is best for them is a bit sexist.

 

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

You keep repeating the "property" argument, but that is not how Drogo and Dany's relationship was depicted.  At the very beginning, yes, but not at this point in the story.  Dany absolutely had influence over Drogo.

 

He bought her and he raped her. If that does not mean she is a property, then IDK what it is. Drogo only showed any consideration for Dany once she made herself into the sort of person she thought he’d prefer (so she could gain a modicum of control over the nightly rapes he was inflicting on her). He had no interest in the girl who dreamed of the house with the red door and who cried herself to sleep after a day of riding with blistered hands and thighs chafed raw; he only engaged with Viserys on his own terms, with little regard for Dany’s feelings or situation more generally; and he only agreed to invade Westeros once his property was threatened, rather than out of any respect for Dany’s desires or ambitions.

Drogo cared about Dany as a status symbol, sexual partner, and future mother of his children. He cared about a single facet of her personality, the part that excels in enduring and adapting, and could make of herself an acceptable khaleesi. Drogo did not care about Dany as a full person, who came from a difficult background where her primary abuser was also her only family, who wanted things other than to be a khaleesi, and who experienced a great deal of pain and weaker-feeling moments over the course of her short life.

If he only loves her when she’s being strong, he doesn’t really love her.

The only influence she had over him was to forgive Viserys (after many "pillow tricks") and to let her claim the lhazareen as her own (and he only did that because his son's fire was filling her with fierceness) and she wondered if she had deared too much, meaning she was clearly walking on thin ice.

 

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I explained this in my last two posts.  Maybe George isn't invested in developing Dothraki culture.  But he writes from POV characters, so maybe they are undeveloped because Dany doesn't see them in a complex way.  Yes, I know she told Viserys to not call them savages, but her own thoughts think poorly of them.

The quotes about Dany buying her handmaidens gifts doesn't really demonstrate she cares about the Dothraki people as a whole.

 

She does not think poorly of them. She cares about her khalasar and protects them. She crossed them through the Red Waste and feed them and she gave them a voice in her council.

 

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

That is not how humanity works, and that is not how George Martin writes.  They aren't going to instantly change their forever culture because one leader tells him to, whether that leader is Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, Stannis Baratheon, or anybody else.

 

Well, if you think that being a leader does not have any bearing on how your people will behave IDK what to say. I'm sure not all of them will simply behave but it's a fair assumption to think that she will set rules and that most of them will follow, or at least try to.

 

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Fair enough.  She discriminately selected all 12-year-old-boys from a social class she is part of to be slaughtered.

 

Again harm no one under 12 =/= kill everyone over 11 (not even within the master's class she stroke at). It baffles me that you take an order that it's made to prevent casualties and deaths of children and spin it as "Daenerys killed children".