The Pink Letter Debate

[Craving Peaches]

Who is the author of the pink letter? This is an intriguing mystery. The main three candidates that seem to be nominated are:

1. Ramsay

2. Stannis

3. Mance

Now, I don't think any of them are a perfect fit, but I think in this case Ramsay seems to fit better than the others. There are still some issues with him as author, but I think the other two have their own problems that are greater than Ramsay's and so make them less likely than him to be the writer in my view.

I think this is a case where who we are told is the author really is just the author. The obvious answer is the correct one.

But I am keeping my mind open. If anyone has really good evidence for the others it may convince me.

So, who do you think wrote it, and why?

[Corvo the Crow]

Stannis. He is privy to all the information in the letter, has probably beaten the crap out of the crappy fighter Ramsay and sent the letter to Jon so he can trick him into making him the Lord of Wifi.

Quote

 

"He fights for you," Reek blurted out. "He's strong."

"Bulls are strong. Bears. I have seen my bastard fight. He is not entirely to blame. Reek was his tutor, the first Reek, and Reek was never trained at arms. Ramsay is ferocious, I will grant you, but he swings that sword like a butcher hacking meat."

"He's not afraid of anyone, m'lord."

"He should be. Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. Even here in Barrowton the crows are circling, waiting to feast upon our flesh. The Cerwyns and the Tallharts are not to be relied on, my fat friend Lord Wyman plots betrayal, and Whoresbane … the Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning. Ramsay should fear them all, as I do. The next time you see him, tell him that."

 

Only a divine intervention by the almighty George, or a military genius can save Ramsay and guess what, the only military genius around is Stannis the Mannis himself.

Ramsay is good as dead. he's probably lying at the bottom of that frozen lake Stannis' clansmen poke full of holes.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[chrisdaw]

It's a mystery created by a small but vocal aspect of the fandom. Ramsay wrote the pink letter and the mystery to it is what is and isn't true.

[Mark of the West]

It isn't Stannis. Whatever his flaws are or will turn out to be in the future, disinformation and dishonesty aren't among them. I guess one make the argument that a person who's down with birthing shadow babies to commit fratricide is only a stone's throw away from penning a poison letter designed to yank John's chain. That smacks more of expediency, or even a bit of cowardice, since Renly may likely have handed him a crushing defeat. But the letter. It doesn't seem like his style, either in content or delivery. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Mark of the West said:

dishonesty

I think one could make the case that he is dishonest with himself.

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

the only military genius around is Stannis the Mannis himself.

Stannis is only as good as George needs him to be though. If Ramsay needs to win or at least live to fight another day for the plot, he will.

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

so he can trick him into making him the Lord of Wifi.

Jon Stark, the Lord of WiFi. Ensuring perfect reception for all his subjects. A dream come true!

Serious Mode back on.

Stannis hasn't been deceptive this in this fashion before though. Why start now?

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Mark of the West said:

It isn't Stannis. Whatever his flaws are or will turn out to be in the future, disinformation and dishonesty aren't among them.

Tell that to Lord o'Bones. Stannis' whole military career is based on deception from Fair Isle to Crofter's Village.

 

Quote

"As you command," Ser Justin said.

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Who is the author of the pink letter? This is an intriguing mystery. The main three candidates that seem to be nominated are:

1. Ramsay

2. Stannis

3. Mance

Oh the list is much longer than that! But yes, these are the ones w/ more supporters. As a matter of fact, I think it’s possible 2 & 3 have more supporters than 1. 
 

57 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It's a mystery created by a small but vocal aspect of the fandom. Ramsay wrote the pink letter and the mystery to it is what is and isn't true.

This is, I think, a first? But I agree w/ you on this completely. 
 

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis hasn't been deceptive this in this fashion before though. Why start now?

For me it’s worse than that, b/c I don’t really see the point in Stannis sending such a letter to Jon. The idea that the letter would cause Jon to rush to Winterfell (or whatever) sounds a tad insane to me. How can he predict how Jon would react? If he is desperate for help, would he put his hopes in a letter that can very easily not be delivered, or ignored, or read by someone else? Sounds absurd to me. 
Mance, too. Why? What does he hope to achieve? 
I have yet to hear/read a credible explanation for any of these questions.

There are many questions regarding the contents of the letter but, imo, not its authorship. 
 

The other thing that is worth remembering is that Jon receives the PL after TWoW Theon I. 

To be honest, I was kind of surprised when I saw so many disputing the letter’s authorship. 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Jon Stark, the Lord of WiFi. Ensuring perfect reception for all his subjects. A dream come true!

Serious Mode back on.

 

You gotta have perfect reception for your WF waifus.

Quote

Stannis hasn't been deceptive this in this fashion before though. Why start now?

Hasn't he? He's already being deceptive with killing Lord of Bones and Glamouring Mance as him and as I said before, him being deceptive goes at the very least as early as Fair Isle. For all the talk both in universe and from readers, he's no problem being much that he's claimed not to be.

One of my favorite quotes is how Donnel Noye describes the Baratheon brothers as metals, and gods how wrong he is, Stannis is the character that has bent the most. He's bent so much he can rival a contortionist doing the Meereenese not. He's more flexible than he himself can imagine.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The other thing that is worth remembering is that Jon receives the PL after TWoW Theon I. 

TWoW Theon I, yes, the same TWoW Theon I which has this

Quote

 

"Do not prate at me of history, ser. Daemon Blackfyre was a rebel and usurper, Bittersteel a bastard. When he fled, he swore he would return to place a son of Daemon's upon the Iron Throne. He never did. Words are wind, and the wind that blows exiles across the narrow sea seldom blows them back. That boy Viserys Targaryen spoke of return as well. He slipped through my fingers at Dragonstone, only to spend his life wheedling after sellswords. 'The Beggar King,' they called him in the Free Cities. Well, I do not beg, nor will I flee again. I am Robert's heir, the rightful king of Westeros. My place is with my men. Yours is in Braavos. Go with the banker, and do as I have bid."

"As you command," Ser Justin said.

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

TWoW Theon I, yes, the same TWoW Theon I which has this

 

And? Not being snarky, but genuinely don’t see what that has to do w/ who wrote the letter… 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And? Not being snarky, but genuinely don’t see what that has to do w/ who wrote the letter… 

It has to do with you mentioning the letter being sent after that chapter. In that very chapter Stannis tells him you may hear I'm dead and It may even be true, so he may hear that Stannis is dead even if no such thing has happened.  Now why would he hear such a thing, why does Stannis expect Massey to hear that he's dead despite being alive?

[Darth Sidious]

Stannis and Mance doesn’t know that Arya is really Jeyne. The writer does. He took great care to use “bride” instead of Arya. He knows that Jon will know soon enough. Ramsay wrote the letter. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It has to do with you mentioning the letter being sent after that chapter. In that very chapter Stannis tells him you may hear I'm dead and It may even be true, so he may hear that Stannis is dead even if no such thing has happened.  Now why would he hear such a thing, why does Stannis expect Massey to hear that he's dead despite being alive?

Gotcha. I think that line to Massey has to do w/ his immediate plans for the battle, not the PL. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Darth Sidious said:

Stannis and Mance doesn’t know that Arya is really Jeyne. The writer does. He took great care to use “bride” instead of Arya. He knows that Jon will know soon enough. Ramsay wrote the letter. 

Or...

Quote

"The north remembers. The Red Wedding, Lady Hornwood's fingers, the sack of Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square, they remember all of it." Bran and Rickon. They were only miller's boys. "Frey and Manderly will never combine their strengths. They will come for you, but separately. Lord Ramsay will not be far behind them. He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek." Theon's laugh was half a titter, half a whimper. "Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear."  -TWoW Theon I

 

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it. -ADWD Jon XIII

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Stannis has knowledge(of Mance's secret and about Ramsay), motive(provoking Jon into leaving the Wall), and the means(Maester Tybald, maester of Dreadfort, who probably has pink wax with him)

Quote

 

"Maester Tybald," announced the knight of the moths.

The maester sank to his knees. He was red-haired and round-shouldered, with close-set eyes that kept flicking toward Theon hanging on the wall. "Your Grace. How may I be of service?"

Stannis did not reply at once. He studied the man before him, his brow furrowed. "Get up." The maester rose. "You are maester at the Dreadfort. How is it you are here with us?"

"Lord Arnolf brought me to tend to his wounded."

"To his wounded? Or his ravens?"

"Both, Your Grace."

"Both." Stannis snapped the word out. "A maester's raven flies to one place, and one place only. Is that correct?"

The maester mopped sweat from his brow with his sleeve. "N-not entirely, Your Grace. Most, yes. Some few can be taught to fly between two castles. Such birds are greatly prized. And once in a very great while, we find a raven who can learn the names of three or four or five castles, and fly to each upon command. Birds as clever as that come along only once in a hundred years."

Stannis gestured at the black birds in the cages. "These two are not so clever, I presume."

"No, Your Grace. Would that it were so."

"Tell me, then. Where are these two trained to fly?"

Maester Tybald did not answer. Theon Greyjoy kicked his feet feebly, and laughed under his breath. Caught!

"Answer me. If we were to loose these birds, would they return to the Dreadfort?" The king leaned forward. "Or might they fly for Winterfell instead?"

Maester Tybald pissed his robes. Theon could not see the dark stain spreading from where he hung, but the smell of piss was sharp and strong.

"Maester Tybald has lost his tongue," Stannis observed to his knights. "Godry, how many cages did you find?"

"Three, Your Grace," said the big knight in the silvered breastplate. "One was empty."

"Y-your Grace, my order is sworn to serve, we... "

"I know all about your vows. What I want to know is what was in the letter that you sent to Winterfell. Did you perchance tell Lord Bolton where to find us?"

"S-sire." Round-shouldered Tybald drew himself up proudly.

"The rules of my order forbid me to divulge the contents of Lord Arnolf's letters."

"Your vows are stronger than your bladder, it would seem."

"Your Grace must understand — "

"Must I?" The king shrugged. "If you say so. You are a man of learning, after all. I had a maester on Dragonstone who was almost a father to me. I have great respect for your order and its vows. Ser Clayton does not share my feelings, though. He learned all he knows in the wynds of Flea Bottom. Were I to put you in his charge, he might strangle you with your own chain or scoop your eye out with a spoon."

"Only the one, Your Grace," volunteered the balding knight, him of the winged pig. "I'd leave t'other."

"How many eyes does a maester need to read a letter?" asked Stannis. "One should suffice, I'd think. I would not wish to leave you unable to fulfill your duties to your lord. Roose Bolton's men may well be on their way to attack us even now, however, so you must understand if I skimp on certain courtesies. I will ask you once again. What was in the message you sent to Winterfell?"

The maester quivered. "A m-map, Your Grace."

The king leaned back in his chair. "Get him out of here," he commanded. "Leave the ravens." A vein was throbbing in his neck. "Confine this grey wretch to one of the huts until I decide what is to be done with him."

"It will be done," the big knight declared. The maester vanished in another blast of cold and snow. Only the knight of the three moths remained.

The king leaned back in his chair. "Get him out of here," he commanded. "Leave the ravens." A vein was throbbing in his neck. "Confine this grey wretch to one of the huts until I decide what is to be done with him."

"It will be done," the big knight declared. The maester vanished in another blast of cold and snow. Only the knight of the three moths remained.

Stannis glowered up at Theon where he hung. "You are not the only turncloak here, it would seem. Would that all the lords in the Seven Kingdoms had but a single neck... " He turned to his knight. "Ser Richard, whilst I am breaking fast with Lord Arnolf, you are to disarm his men and take them into custody. Most will be asleep. Do them no harm, unless they resist. It may be they did not know. Question some upon that point... but sweetly. If they had no knowledge of this treachery, they shall have the chance to prove their loyalty." He snapped a hand in dismissal. "Send in Justin Massey."

 

Notice also how he still has two ravens that can fly to Winterfell, more than enough to send whatever he wants.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Nevets]

It's not Stannis.  I'm perfectly willing to believe he could be dishonest, but he isn't going to write that particular letter.  He especially isn't going to make threats against Melisandre and his family.  That raises the possibility they could flee or be forced to flee.  I don't think Stannis wants that.  And I fail to see a reasonable motive.  If Jon wanted to, he could simply go to Winterfell with a suitable escort saying it's in response to Ramsay's accusations.  That's official business, so if Ramsay's not there, he turns around.  And that's assuming he leaves in the first place.   Jon's actual actions were a surprise to everyone, including most readers, I expect. Becoming Lord of Winterfell isn't in the cards.

Ramsay has motive and probably necessary knowledge.  He needs FArya back, preferably before anyone realizes she's gone, and if he decides Jon is a real danger, he gives himself a causus belli to attack the Watch after they fail to turn over hostages.

If Stannis fakes his death, it would be to fool Ramsay.  The story would probably spread, so Massey could easily hear it.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Hasn't he? He's already being deceptive with killing Lord of Bones and Glamouring Mance

That was, if I remember correctly, Melisandre's idea not his.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I said before, him being deceptive goes at the very least as early as Fair Isle.

Deception in military strategies isn't really the same as the deception used in writing the letter though, in my opinion.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He's more flexible than he himself can imagine.

He's certainly very flexible when it comes to himself...

[Sandy Clegg]

As a thought experiment, if we assume Ramsay didn't write the letter then it had to be someone who knew Ramsay fairly well, or at least his style of speech, as the tone of the letter reeks of him (no pun intended). Now, Mance Rayder may be in Ramsay's vicinity observing him. So he could have picked up on some of his mannerisms. But the person who knows what Ramsay is truly like is Theon - to his cost, as we know. He also knows about events in Winterfell. Couldn't he have written it or helped the writer to make it seem authentic?

Edited October 25, 2022 by Sandy Clegg

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But the person who knows what Ramsay is truly like is Theon - to his cost, as we know. He also knows about events in Winterfell. Couldn't he have written it or helped the writer to make it seem authentic?

This is a good point. I think if Theon wrote it, it would be him writing it himself or writing on Mance's behalf, and not on Stannis' behalf. I just really feel that it wouldn't be Stannis' style. But Theon never brings up the possibility of writing a letter in his POV chapters, as far as I'm aware.