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Phylum of Alexandria Council Member

Phylum of Alexandria

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I would like her more on Westeros. What I hate most about her story is that her antagonists aren’t that morally complex. They’ve all been evil by comparison 

I agree they read as flat, but I think part of that is because of Dany's and Barristan's POVs. I also think that the peace deal from the Green Grace, awful as she is, was real. The peace in Mereen was fragile and ugly and not at all satisfying, but I think it was a real peace, with some promise for gradual improvements and reform. The central instigator in messing all of that up was Skahaz, but Barritstan's own biases and need for moral clarity helped him believe what he wanted to hear, and break the peace. My guess is that Dany's victory will have some terrible costs, including the deaths of the cup bearers. And will serve to shape her reputation as a cruel conqueror in Westeros. At this point Dany just wants to go "home," but she will find that all of the problems that she so neatly "solved" in Mereen and then left will also be found in Westeros, with a vengeance. 

If it does pan out this way, the insufferable Mereenese antagonists helps Martin pull off a sleight of hand: he gets readers to root for Dany as she chooses the path of fire and blood rather than difficult, ugly, messy peace. But then Dany's dreams of being the heroic ruler of Westeros will be then be dashed by our author who believes in the importance of peace, no matter how difficult, ugly, messy, or tedious they may be.

"Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?" --GRRM

Basically, GRRM wants us to think of the Mereenese as orcs for now, in order to elaborate on his larger point about the importance on Aragorn's tax policies and decisions regarding orc infanticide. These details will be just as relevant in Westeros, and perhaps Dany's actions in Mereen will eventually be seen in a different light.

 

 

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Corvo the Crow Council Member

Corvo the Crow

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9 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?" --GRRM

Basically, GRRM wants us to think of the Mereenese as orcs for now, in order to elaborate on his larger point about the importance on Aragorn's tax policies and decisions regarding orc infanticide. These details will be just as relevant in Westeros, and perhaps Dany's actions in Mereen will eventually be seen in a different light.

GRRM doesn’t do any of this either, well, except for all the baby killing with Tywin and Cersei.

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Alden Rothack Council Member

Alden Rothack

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12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

GRRM doesn’t do any of this either, well, except for all the baby killing with Tywin and Cersei.

ironically despite making a good point his bad guys like the Dothraki and Unsullied make less sense than orcs, theres enough grey area on what orcs are, whether they are evil elves, evil humans, black magic cionstructs or part human hybrids that the oddities can be explained by them probably not being like humans

the Dothraki and Unsullied are just terrible and make no sense

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Tyrosh Lannister Landed Knight

Tyrosh Lannister

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2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

ironically despite making a good point his bad guys like the Dothraki and Unsullied make less sense than orcs, theres enough grey area on what orcs are, whether they are evil elves, evil humans, black magic cionstructs or part human hybrids that the oddities can be explained by them probably not being like humans

the Dothraki and Unsullied are just terrible and make no sense

Why don't the dothraki sense ?

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Tyrosh Lannister Landed Knight

Tyrosh Lannister

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1 minute ago, Alden Rothack said:

a single roman style legion would have exterminated them in a week because they have no armour

The Sarnori were the most powerful kingdom this side of the bone mountains in Essos. Unfortunately they were divided and even hired the dothraki to war against fellow sarnori. The Dothraki took advantage of this and destroyed them. 

I don't think Ghis is interested in defeating them once and for all

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Alden Rothack Council Member

Alden Rothack

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2 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

The Sarnori were the most powerful kingdom this side of the bone mountains in Essos. Unfortunately they were divided and even hired the dothraki to war against fellow sarnori. The Dothraki took advantage of this and destroyed them. 

I don't think Ghis is interested in defeating them once and for all

They should be, one round of tribute is likely enough gold to buy the extermination of the dothraki based on what Danerys was given or what the Quartheen paid for three thousand unsullied

the unsullied are weak and unimaginative but totally loyal, which sucks because they will lose almost every time against the same number of men-at-arms or skilled sellswords.

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Phylum of Alexandria Council Member

Phylum of Alexandria

Posted
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4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

GRRM doesn’t do any of this either, well, except for all the baby killing with Tywin and Cersei.

I think that Jon and Dany's ADWD arcs both get at this theme. How well he pulls it off will depend the later books though. Both J & D are currently at the point where they are about to say "to hell with this responsible rule crap" and go all Storybook Hero. 

Well, maybe Ghost is about to say it. Jon's not saying much at the moment.

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